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Post by thedirestrat on Jul 6, 2022 23:16:18 GMT -5
Hey GuitarNuts,
Hello again. While I was working at the circuit for my Broadcaster build, I, of course, was thinking about mods I could do to the Strat as well. I thought of a few things that I think are useful and increase its versatility a lot.
One of these things included pulling on the tone pot, getting rid of it from the circuit and instead have the knob be used as an out-of-phase blend for *only* positions 2 and 4. So on 1, 3, 5, the knob does nothing, but on positions 2 and 4, at "10" you get your typical 2/4 in between quack sound. Then you start rolling down the knob a bit, and they, the two parallel pickups, start fading out of phase. I got inspired from this by the Dan Armstrong Blend Mod. This out of phase thing is just a mere portion from that mod-- on pos 1 and 5 you get series blending as well, but that doesn't really interest me for now.
Is it possible to just have this "out of phase ness" fading thing for positions 2 and 4 only? Forget about the push pull application, I'll think of that later, I just want to know if getting two parallel pickups gradually out of phase from one another (as seen in the Armstrong mod) is a possibility. I tried looking at the Dan Armstrong wiring, and I get how the pickups are blended in series (rather ingenious), but I can't figure out how the wizard gets his pickups gradually out of phase!
Thank you all so much!
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Post by thedirestrat on Jul 6, 2022 23:27:25 GMT -5
(If this is important, down below is a wiring diagram that I want to build upon: its a normal Strat wiring, but it uses a super switch so that the tone pot is out of the circuit for positions 2 and 4 only, and the last knob is a blend knob for blending the neck in parallel with the bridge, and it only works on position 1. This whole out of phase blending for only position 2 and 4 would have to eventually be implemented with a push pull pot, disconnecting the tone knob and replacing it with an out of phase blend, if such a thing can even exist)  Courtesy of @testing1two from TheGearPage! |
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Post by MattB on Jul 7, 2022 0:36:52 GMT -5
For reference:  |
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Post by Yogi B on Jul 7, 2022 1:30:36 GMT -5
So on 1, 3, 5, the knob does nothing, but on positions 2 and 4, at "10" you get your typical 2/4 in between quack sound. Then you start rolling down the knob a bit, and they, the two parallel pickups, start fading out of phase. I got inspired from this by the Dan Armstrong Blend Mod. This out of phase thing is just a mere portion from that mod-- on pos 1 and 5 you get series blending as well, but that doesn't really interest me for now. Based on your description I don't think you're talking about the original Armstrong mod, but rather Vinnie Monte-Irvine's "upgraded" version ( nerd brought up this wiring in a thread a few years back). It is pretty clever, but a rather important detail is omitted from the video: when blending out-of-phase in positions 2 & 4 it swaps to the opposite pickup. For example, in position 2: with the blender on 10 you get usual middle + bridge in parallel, but turning it all the way down you get middle + neck (half) out-of-phase in parallel. Whether this 'swapping' is a deal breaker is up to you. It could be workable to have it only affect positions 2 & 4. The most obvious potential conflict being the neck/bridge blender, which would be required to be disabled in these positions (you mention the neck/bridge blend being active in only position one, though testing1two's diagram has it active whenever either pickup is selected, i.e. in positions 1,2,4 & 5).
(Coincidentally I was thinking about the mechanism by which this works earlier today, in response to frets questions of what to do with a Strat. For some time I've wanted to do a diagram that includes a dual-gang M/N taper "true" blend pot that has B+M at one extreme, M+N at the other and B+(-N) at the centre detent, such that anywhere on the sweep is nominally hum-cancelling. Alas I've yet to pair that with suitable additional selections to flesh it out into a fuller switching scheme.) |
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Post by thedirestrat on Jul 7, 2022 10:30:09 GMT -5
For reference: I was looking for this thing everywhere! Thank you! |
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Post by thedirestrat on Jul 7, 2022 10:48:19 GMT -5
It is pretty clever, but a rather important detail is omitted from the video: when blending out-of-phase in positions 2 & 4 it swaps to the opposite pickup. For example, in position 2: with the blender on 10 you get usual middle + bridge in parallel, but turning it all the way down you get middle + neck (half) out-of-phase in parallel. You are right! I can't believe I missed this (well I do, I tend to miss things all the time...) After checking my reference video, the Dan Armstrong video by BrejaToneWorks, , I can clearly see that the in-between positions blend opposite pickups in out of phase and in parallel. I don't think this will be a deal breaker. I plan on using only a bit of the rotation of this knob in positions 2 and 4, so I can have a bit more hollowness and hopefully quack and character in the 2 and 4 positions. So it will still mostly be middle and neck for example, but something, very little, out of phase, will be added in via a small rotation on the knob. But now I'm curious-- is it possible to gradually change the phase between two SAME pickups? So in position 4, the middle and neck pickups are in parallel and in phase, but then while rolling a knob you gradually change the phase between them. I don't think such a thing is possible though. Thanks, once AGAIN, Yogi! |
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Post by thedirestrat on Jul 7, 2022 10:52:25 GMT -5
(You mention the neck/bridge blend being active in only position one, though testing1two's diagram has it active whenever either pickup is selected, i.e. in positions 1,2,4 & 5) Huh, that's weird, all this diagram was supposed to be was a Master Tone Strat wiring, with a neck blend knob that is only active on position 1, and the wiring diagram had an extra bonus of having the tone knob completely disconnected on positions 2 and 4. I got the blend knob, or 1/4 blend knob idea from JayLeonardJ, a YouTube and fantastic guitar player. He had a diagram, so I will make one using his but adding the tone pot out of pos 2 and 4 idea as well. I hope this one is better: It should have the tone pot bypassed in positions 2 and 4, and a neck blender that works *only* in the bridge position (position 1).  |
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 7, 2022 12:51:29 GMT -5
Blending between phase on one pickup will work like turning it down to silence and then back up but this time out of phase. On its own that seems unhelpful, but combined with another pickup, you get a sort of mix control which actually could be pretty cool. The way I see it working needs a dual gang pot.
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Post by thedirestrat on Jul 7, 2022 14:06:29 GMT -5
Blending between phase on one pickup will work like turning it down to silence and then back up but this time out of phase. On its own that seems unhelpful, but combined with another pickup, you get a sort of mix control which actually could be pretty cool. The way I see it working needs a dual gang pot. Interesting. So with the dual gang pot, on 10, on position 4 for example, the neck and middle pickups will be fully together (in parallel) and in phase. Then rolling down the knob, one of the pickups will be having their leads reversed gradually, so the phase between the pickups would gradually be reversed-- this is what I am looking for. Do you think the dual gang will be able to do it? |
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Post by thedirestrat on Jul 7, 2022 15:18:00 GMT -5
I thought about how I could gradually reverse the signal polarity of the middle pickup, so in position 2 and 4 we can get those quack sounds with various degrees of out of phase ness. I'm not sure if this is right:  Unfortunately, if this actually is the way to do it, then it probably can't be in the way I want to ultimately use it-- through a push pull pot. Dual gang push pulls exist, but I want to use it as a normal standard master tone knob, and then when pulled up, use it as the phase blend, but I don't think you can combine the two, like what was done for the neck blend/tone knob combo done for my Broadcaster project. |
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Post by frets on Jul 7, 2022 15:29:04 GMT -5
Yogi,
I like that idea. What would the configuration look like. Are we talking a standard dual gang blend, MN or just regular. And the wiring. Straight forward wiring of both pickups as usual?
Thanks!!
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Post by frets on Jul 7, 2022 15:30:16 GMT -5
Maybe I should have posted this under my thread but I thought since it was “here.” I would address my questions in this thread.
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 7, 2022 16:21:42 GMT -5
Yeah I guess it’s really just wired like any DPDT phase switch, except it’s a dual pot. The both have six lugs related to one another essentially the same way.
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Post by thedirestrat on Jul 7, 2022 16:41:14 GMT -5
Yeah I guess it’s really just wired like any DPDT phase switch, except it’s a dual pot. The both have six lugs related to one another essentially the same way. Didn't even realize that! This would be cool, but getting the tone pot out of it too with a push pull will be hard or impossible... and that's kinda a deal breaker for me. So I'll see if I can do it with the Dan Armstrong blender. |
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 7, 2022 16:54:06 GMT -5
Yeah I can't promise it'll actually work particularly well. I'm afraid you're going to find that most of the interesting action is very close to the extremes of the pot's travel with that pickup's contribution dropping off pretty fast as you move toward the center from either direction. Worth a try if you've got the parts laying around. If not, you could probably test it with a pair of linear pots and see if you like it.
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Post by Yogi B on Jul 7, 2022 21:43:20 GMT -5
Then rolling down the knob, one of the pickups will be having their leads reversed gradually, so the phase between the pickups would gradually be reversed That description is a bit off, the phase change is discrete: at 51% both pickups are in phase, just one is much quieter; at 49% they're 180° out of phase, but again really only one pickup is audible. If we could actually gradually change the phase, then the mid point wouldn't be identical either lone pickup, rather it would still be a 50/50 mix of both pickups just literally half (90°) out of phase (rather than the filtered out-of-phase that moniker usually implies). Although I wouldn't say that a 90° phase difference would actually sound half way between fully in phase and fully out of phase. The most notable thing about out-of-phase pairings is the cancellation of the lower frequencies (which are usually picked up in phase by both pickups, unlike higher harmonics), however at 90° they'd only be reduced by 3dB. Therefore a (reverse) log sweep would probably make more sense, with 'halfway' being a phase difference of 162°. But this is pretty much only academic, as such a thing would only be possible via a pretty complex active circuit. The suggested in-phase/out-of-phase blender is the best you'll get passively.
frets: It's my fault, I'll start a new thread...
Yeah I can't promise it'll actually work particularly well. I'm afraid you're going to find that most of the interesting action is very close to the extremes of the pot's travel with that pickup's contribution dropping off pretty fast as you move toward the center from either direction. Yeah, ideally you'd have each of the dual gangs be a W-taper (A.K.A. 4B, B4, or G-taper depending on manufacturer), but such a pot is very unlikely to exist naturally, especially in something as large as 500k. A smaller valued linear pot would give a better adjustment range, but would load the circuit more — and doubly so, since both gangs contribute. |
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Post by thedirestrat on Jul 7, 2022 23:08:43 GMT -5
That description is a bit off, the phase change is discrete: at 51% both pickups are in phase, just one is much quieter; at 49% they're 180° out of phase, but again really only one pickup is audible. If we could actually gradually change the phase, then the mid point wouldn't be identical either lone pickup, rather it would still be a 50/50 mix of both pickups just literally half (90°) out of phase (rather than the filtered out-of-phase that moniker usually implies). Although I wouldn't say that a 90° phase difference would actually sound half way between fully in phase and fully out of phase. The most notable thing about out-of-phase pairings is the cancellation of the lower frequencies (which are usually picked up in phase by both pickups, unlike higher harmonics), however at 90° they'd only be reduced by 3dB. Therefore a (reverse) log sweep would probably make more sense, with 'halfway' being a phase difference of 162°. But this is pretty much only academic, as such a thing would only be possible via a pretty complex active circuit. The suggested in-phase/out-of-phase blender is the best you'll get passively Thank you SO much again Yogi. This makes tons of sense and I'm going to scrap this gradually-changing-the-phase-of-one-pickup idea. The only idea that remains is the Dan Armstrong, but only the 2 and 4 mods (no series capabilities). The idea I had was to have in-between positions with a bit of out of phase-ness, so I can more frequency cancellations and have more (or different) "quack". For the Dan Armstrong Mod, I never used it, when at "10" on positions 2 and 4, the bridge pickup blends in right away out of phase right? So I'll have that "bit" of out of phaseness at like 9 or something, correct? If so, can it be done to have a knob just for this (Dan Armstrong) in positions 2 and 4? If so, can it be that when I pull up the tone knob, the knob becomes this out of phase blend? That's the tough one... tone knob is completely different from an out of phase blend... |
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Post by thedirestrat on Jul 8, 2022 10:52:25 GMT -5
you mention the neck/bridge blend being active in only position one, though testing1two's diagram has it active whenever either pickup is selected, i.e. in positions 1,2,4 & 5 I can't believe I'm saying this, and I'm probably wrong, but after checking through testing1two's diagram several times, it seems to work flawlessly. No tone knob in positions 2 and 4, and the blend knob only works on the bridge position. When turning the knob, the neck pickup comes in gradually on the bridge pickup position, and that's it. Everyone else, feel free to check out the first diagram I sent to see if the blend knob only works on the bridge position, only if you want, because I may be wrong. |
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Post by thedirestrat on Jul 10, 2022 18:53:46 GMT -5
Hey frets, What are were you thinking of doing with your Strat? |
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Post by thedirestrat on Jul 11, 2022 17:37:53 GMT -5
Alright, after looking at this wiring (both mine and the testing1two diagrams, they should do the same thing), I am really liking the way this wiring looks: no tone pots for 2 and 4 for maximum quack and a bit louder and more present (this guitar in particular needs that), a neck blend for solely the bridge position, which is great.
The thing is, I have two push pull pots (2 DPDT) and I want to do something for them. Already one I know already what to do with it: sending the bridge straight to jack with the Eldred or Arlo mod for a cocked wah solo boost. I'm excited about this one, but I'll make another thread discussing it.
What I'd like to discuss in this thread is what to do with that second push pull pot. Lots of you are guitar wiring geniuses and I'd be happy to hear all of your wacky and beautiful modding ideas. I wanted to pull up on the tone knob and it would turn into an out of phase blend for solely positions 2 and 4. This means at 10, those in-between positions would sound normal, then at 9 or 8 they would have a degree of out of phase to it. I was thinking of having Vinnie's Dan Armstrong mod only for positions 2 and 4, where the bridge comes in out of phase (as previously discussed). For those that did this mod, when the Armstrong Blend knob is at 8 or 9, how is the sound? Like position 2 and 4 bit a bit of out of phaseness added to it? If so, that's what I'm looking for. The last thing about this is the wiring... there may not be a way of "converting" a tone knob into this Armstrong out of phase Blend knob. If any one knows, please let me know!
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Post by newey on Jul 11, 2022 19:49:27 GMT -5
The thing is, I have two push pull pots (2 DPDT) and I want to do something for them. Already one I know already what to do with it: sending the bridge straight to jack with the Eldred or Arlo mod for a cocked wah solo boost. I'm excited about this one, but I'll make another thread discussing it. So, generic queries engender generic responses. The "I have such-and-such part, what can I do with it?" type of question will probably generate dozens of ideas, and if we're lucky, one or more of them may actually be of interest to you. Or, perhaps none are of interest. But it's a bit of a scattershot approach. Perhaps it would be more efficient for you to give us an idea of what types of sounds you like/use in your playing, and we can then "zero in" better. My personal idea would be to use the P/P to add a tone pot at 2 and 4 on the middle pickup- pulled up switches the pot in at 2 and 4, pushed down, no pot at 2 and 4. I find some interesting "beefier" tones by using the middle tone pot on a Strat to darken the middle a bit, in combo with the neck it's a bit of a chunky sound that I kind of like. But YMMV, so some general direction would be nice, lest we wander in the wilderness  |
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Post by thedirestrat on Jul 11, 2022 22:57:52 GMT -5
You're absolutely right, newey. I'll go ahead and think of some general, but still vaguely specific, ideas about what I'd use on a Strat. The reason why I'm a bit "lost" and open now is because I had that out of phase blend thing in mind. The reason why I thought of such a thing is because of Robert Cray. He gets a really quacky sound out of his Strat, and I was wondering if I went on those in-between positions, and added some more cancellations due to slight changes in phase, that might be pretty cool. I also like the fact that by doing so, the guitar just gets overall more brighter, as there is no more tone knob (but still the load of the volume of course, or else it is too bright!). It's like the bright and dark circuits on a Jazzmaster/Jaguar almost. P/P down, and it's a tone knob, two 250k loads on every position but 2 and 4 of course. P/P down, now only 250k loads on each position, but the 2 and 4 positions have a knob dedicated for them for controlling their phase-- alas, I realize this cannot be done, BUT. There comes in the Dan Armstrong-- what I'd like to know is if I could have the Dan Armstrong blender just for positions 2 and 4, where the "non" active pickup gradually comes in out of phase when rotating the knob. Can this be done? Yes? Now can it be done with the P/P? Yes, perfect! I'll do this! These questions are the first I'd like to get answered, and I appreciate all your wisdom helping me out, greatly. If it cannot be done, I'll think of more stuff. |
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Post by thedirestrat on Jul 11, 2022 23:43:37 GMT -5
My personal idea would be to use the P/P to add a tone pot at 2 and 4 on the middle pickup- pulled up switches the pot in at 2 and 4, pushed down, no pot at 2 and 4. I find some interesting "beefier" tones by using the middle tone pot on a Strat to darken the middle a bit, in combo with the neck it's a bit of a chunky sound that I kind of like. This is a cool idea newey, thanks for sharing! I'll add it to my list of possible mods, if this out of phase thing doesn't work out. |
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