Trouble with a diagram

[frets]

Guys,
I’m doing a variation on an existing diagram; but, the original is confusing on the switch.  See my red arrow?  Is that pinkish red wire go to stage 1 lug 2 then 3 or just from stage 2 lug A to 2 (hope I have that right)?  It’s kinda confusing.

[reTrEaD]

Here's the thread from which that diagram originally appeared:
2 Pickup Teles

Here's a link to the original image (which is considerably larger and easier to read:
res.cloudinary.com/phostenix/image/upload/GuitarWiring/Tele4-WayOoPTBX.jpg

And the image itself:



I believe the "pinkish wire" between the second lug from the left (top row), to the left-most lug (bottom row) is wrong and should be omitted.

Perhaps one of the other nutz has time to verify this.

[unreg]

Aug 28, 2022 21:06:49 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Here's a link to the original image (which is considerably larger and easier to read:

tiny note: resizing jpegs is a major cause of blurriness. Perhaps, save a jpg as a png, then resize. And, don’t convert back to jpg.

[sumgai]

reTrEaD,


I'll sign on to that diagram having an "extra" wire. frets, do not connect the left-most link (slightly lighter red) that runs from the upper deck to the lower deck. The right-most link (brown) should remain in place.

I believe that this happened because there was no numbering of lugs, nor of switch positions.... it was easy to mistake which way the switch was thrown as to whether you are looking at Pos 1 or Pos 4. Bad circuit designer, no soldering iron for you!

---

unreg,

The JPG posted by reTrEaD is the original, and is not/has not been resized.  A quick look at the source code confirms this. (Or even easier, do a "Quote", and view the image parameters in BBCode view.)  On my screen, it's perfectly clear, no fuzziness at all.

In most cases here on ProBoards, you can easily insert an image and scale it down with no ill effect.  Going the other way, you can usually scale it up about 50% before it starts getting fuzzy.  On other forums, or using other browsers, that might not be true, I dunno.

HTH






sumgai

[Yogi B]

Aug 28, 2022 21:06:49 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

I believe the "pinkish wire" between the second lug from the left (top row), to the left-most lug (bottom row) is wrong and should be omitted.

I'd say optional rather than flat-out wrong.

The presence of that wire means that in position 1 the neck pickup is shunted to hot; without it the neck would be hanging from hot.

Aug 29, 2022 0:19:15 GMT -5 sumgai said:

In most cases here on ProBoards, you can easily insert an image and scale it down with no ill effect.  Going the other way, you can usually scale it up about 50% before it starts getting fuzzy.  On other forums, or using other browsers, that might not be true, I dunno.

By default, most browsers seem to implement some kind of linear interpolation for smooth image scaling. For downsizing images or upsizing photographs this is probably the best approach. However, for upscaling diagrams "image-rendering: pixelated;" is almost always better. Unfortunately it's one of the CSS properties that Proboards trims from a tag's style attribute, but even if that weren't the case it would require people to manually add it in the first place (then again, making an image display larger than its natural dimensions by default, does also require setting the width and/or height).

[frets]

Thanks guys😸,

I think shall proceed by removing the pink wire. Retread, thank you for the better rendition. I found the crummy one I had a million years ago, sorry guys for the bad rendition of the diagram.

[sumgai]

Yogi is correct, that is a shunt connection, an attempt to nullify the antenna effects of the "always connected to the output" status of the Neck pup. This is something that I've espoused nearly forever, but since my post with a diagram (decades ago!) about this mod, I've come to realize that many, many modders a) see no benefit; and b): think there is actually a tone suck going on (ChrisK among them). For that reason, I now prefer to leave it up to the individual modder, for them to do as they desire. Meaning, don't do it just because it's possible, do it because you (the modder) derive some tangible benefit.

I do prefer it, but others may not. I do not wish to impose my desires on anyone else as being "From On High", so to speak.

HTH





sumgai

[unreg]

Aug 29, 2022 0:19:15 GMT -5 sumgai said:

unreg,

The JPG posted by reTrEaD is the original, and is not/has not been resized.  A quick look at the source code confirms this. (Or even easier, do a "Quote", and view the image parameters in BBCode view.)  On my screen, it's perfectly clear, no fuzziness at all.

yes, totally agree sumgai! Sigh, I failed in my small post: I quoted reTrEaD, but responded to frets. Sry for my lack of specificity sumgai.

[frets]

Guys,
I have a quick question. And I know I should do a diagram but it’s a quickie.

Theoretically, if you wanted to replace the tone pot with a push pull tone to provide an additional out of phase on the pull up to the bridge, wouldn’t one just wire that push pull in a normal phase fashion and run the hot out to the switch’s bridge position? I’m talking about a typical phase wiring for a single coil. In other words, the harness would provide two independent phases.

Thanks😸

[frets]

Here’s what I’m talking about for the dual Out-of-Phase.  Let me know.  Thanks😸

[newey]

frets-

The diagram looks fine. Why one would want 2 phase switches when there are only 2 pickups I can't imagine, but to each his or her own.

A single phase switch puts the two pickups out of phase. Doesn't matter which pickup is OOP, the tone will be the same.

Now, ashcatlt has posted that apparently Brian May used his multiple phase switches when playing with feedback- flipping one phase switch versus another would change the harmonic of the feedback. But that seems a very limited use for adding another switch. How often are you playing with feedback?

You also lose the TBX from the original scheme. AFAIK, there is no TBX Push/pull pot.

[frets]

Newey,
I totally agree regarding “why” someone would want two phase potentials, but I have had a guy ask about it in the past. I wouldn’t want it, but maybe the guy was a Brian May fan in terms of utilization of the phases given May has 3 OoP switches.

Thanks for looking over my diagram😸

[sumgai]

frets,


Your guy-who-wanted-this is imagining a "next generation" of the venerable Fender Mustang. I say, more power to him.


HTH





sumgai

[Yogi B]

Aug 29, 2022 18:48:28 GMT -5 frets said:

Here’s what I’m talking about for the dual Out-of-Phase...

Be aware that you'll likely need to separate the bridge's shield & signal grounds, the same as has already been shown for the neck pickup. Otherwise, when the bridge is OoP, at best you'll end up with extra noise — at worst you'll inadvertently short the pickup(s).

[frets]

Yogi, I’m confused by that. The shield and signal grounds. Can you help me?

Are you saying the signal ground to the jack needs to be separated from the grounding wire?

[newey]

Aug 30, 2022 14:43:49 GMT -5 frets said:

Are you saying the signal ground to the jack needs to be separated from the grounding wire?

Are these three-wire (two signal plus a separate shield)? If so, wire away.

But your diagram shows only 2 wires, as is traditional on Tele Bridge pups. If that's the case, the "ground" wire is typically doing double duty; it carries the "not hot" signal and also acts a a shield by being also connected to the (metal) baseplate. Yogi B is right, if you want two phase switches you'll need to disconnect the "not hot" wire from the baseplate and run a separate wire from the baseplate to ground as a shield. Similarly, the neck Tele pickup typically needs to be disconnected from the metal cover to do phasing and/or series wiring, for the same reason. But if you put phase switches on both pickups, then you need to run separate shield wires for each one.

But if it's a 3-conductor, the baseplaate should already be separated from the "not hot" wire (as in no continuity). (But check it anyway, just to be sure)

[ashcatlt]

Aug 30, 2022 5:37:06 GMT -5 newey said:

How often are you playing with feedback?

I know you’re not asking me that question. LOL. But honestly I’ve never actually tried that little trick. I have a couple guitars with phase switches. Even had a Mustang in my custody recently. Just never really tried it. Mostly I think you can get the same result with about the same reliability just by moving the guitar, and probably much more reliably by actually touching the harmonic node on the string itself.

frets - when you flip the phase switch, the bottom wire becomes the top wire (and vice versa). If that original bottom wire was also the shield ground for that pickup, it’s now dumping its noise onto the jack tip. We’d like those wires to be separate coming out of the pickup so that the shield can stay connected to the jack sleeve and we can swap the signal wires without worry.
Edit - ninja’d by newey. Not the first time and probably won’t be the last.

[frets]

Okay,
I’m getting close to understanding this.  You’ve all been very helpful.

Ash, your reference to not wanting to dump to the signal ground got me much further along.

So let’s say I wire this thing up.  Am I wiring an additional ground from the pickup’s ground wire running to its switch lug to the shield plate?   Does that make sense, pickup ground wire goes to switch lug, another wire goes from same switch lug to baseplate?

I want to redo the diagram so it’s right.

I think I’ll build this to see how it sounds.

[ashcatlt]

I may not be understanding what you’re describing.

First check continuity between that bottom wire and the baseplate of the pickup. If they are connected, you’re going to have to figure out where and disconnect them. The wire which you connect to the switch lug should not connect to the baseplate (or in case of neck, the metal cover, or in general any shield). Then you need another wire from baseplate(/case/shield) to wherever you’re collecting your grounds. In a tele, that wire from the baseplate is also your whole string/bridge ground, so is pretty important. Basically, the wires from the actual coil of the pickup need to be separate from those to the body of the pickup if you ever want to elevate that bottom wire - whether for phase purposes or in a series arrangement.

Hope it helps.

[newey]

Aug 31, 2022 12:23:32 GMT -5 frets said:

Am I wiring an additional ground from the pickup’s ground wire running to its switch lug to the shield plate?   Does that make sense, pickup ground wire goes to switch lug, another wire goes from same switch lug to baseplate?

Well, no. First thing to understand is that this can be a very delicate bit of surgery, proceed with care. But it is do-able.

First, inspect the bridge pickup ground wire (black in the diagram). See if it attaches to the baseplate, it probably does. You need to break that connection so as to separate the end of the pickup winding from the baseplate.

Then, you will run one wire from the pickup connection (which can be the black wire if you get it off the baseplate in one piece, otherwise ypou'll need to solder on an extension). That wire goes to your phase switch.

Last, you run another wire, soldered to the baseplate at one end, to your grounding point at the other end. This is then your separate shield connection.

If you can get the black pickup wire off the baseplate without detaching it from the pickup winding, so much the better, but if so, check to be sure you have good continuity through the wire and tape the bare part.

EDIT: My turn to get Ninja'd

[frets]

Oh!! duh! 🙀. Okay, now I get it. But would it work at all if you did not do that? Wouldn’t it work but have the potential of being somewhat noisy. I guess that’s what you all were saying. Maybe I will build it to see how noisy it is. For giggles. Oh heck, I’ll try it both ways, first without the baseplate grounding and then with.
Someone will ask for it in the future.

My confusion was with the term “baseplate,” I thought you all were talking about the “control plate” as that is a grounding point (so to speak). I now see how my suggested fix would not work. Duh!

Ash, you have a similar configuration in a guitar? Correct? And if so, did you do the baseplate fix? It sounds like you did. I just am interested in how noisy it was without the baseplate fix.

Thanks Newey, you always come through for me!

[Yogi B]

Aug 31, 2022 18:26:39 GMT -5 frets said:

But would it work at all if you did not do that? Wouldn’t it work but have the potential of being somewhat noisy.

That depends, you're not just connecting the bridge pickup's baseplate to hot, but also anything with which it makes a good enough electrical connection. On a typical Tele this would include the bridge itself (via the pickup's mounting/height-adjustment screws) and thus the saddles, strings, tuners & intermittently the player. All of which add to the the potential for noise.


Alternatively, if the (string) bridge has its own ground connection (i.e. a string ground) or if it is connected to cavity shielding, then you'll be connecting hot to ground. Thereby shorting the bridge pickup and giving no output in positions 1 & 2 and neck only in position 4 (i.e. the four-way would give: nothing/nothing/neck/neck).

[ashcatlt]

Aug 31, 2022 18:26:39 GMT -5 frets said:

Ash, you have a similar configuration in a guitar? Correct?

No I’m sorry. I have a “hybrid” guitar (offset body like a jag but bridge like a tele), but all the pickups are 5 wire (4+shield) HBs. I do have an LP with 2-wire covered HBs which I did not mess with converting. It doesn’t have a phase switch, but does (well, did…) do series, which sort of puts the shield connection for one pickup in the middle of things. That’s not quite the same as shield connected directly to jack tip, and might not be expected to be quite as bad. I can’t say I ever noticed any inordinate amount of noise there, but that position gives such extremely hot desired (string) signal that it’s tough to gauge. Plus I only really ever used it in the studio so don’t know what might have happened in a more questionable EM/RFI environment like a club. Then my dad decided to “restore” the wiring of the pots without actually understanding the switching, so now it don’t work right at all.