After a 4P2T guitar switch like this

[Deleted]

i want to see if i can make it a On/On/On
might go for a cut down version just a 2P2T same design tho

[stevewf]

For making that same switch into On-On-On, I was thinking of these approaches, maybe in combination:
- replace the insulators with different thickness. Thinner where you want On; thicker for Off
- bend the contact leaves to favor middle=On or Off as desired

If it works, it might come in handy one day in a hollow body guitar (the switch is very "deep" and probably wouldn't fit in most solid body guitars).

And if the above methods do work, then the switch could be made unconventional, like, for example:
Pole1 A-A-B
Pole2 A-B-B
Pole3 A-B-B
Pole4 A-Off-B
No idea how such a "warped Armstrong" switch could be used, but there it is. Or at least would be.

[sumgai]

Dec 11, 2022 21:58:30 GMT -5 stevewf said:

If it works, it might come in handy one day in a hollow body guitar (the switch is very "deep" and probably wouldn't fit in most solid body guitars).

Well, the thing is, the switching leaves are the same, only the mounting frames are different. Observe:







It shouldn't take too much imagination to see that the frames can be interchanged quite easily.  Although some re-bending of the center leaves may be necessary, I can't speak to that possibility.


Now, as to nomenclature. The oversized switch shown above is properly nomenclated as a 4P3T-NS (for non-shorting). In the standard LP or Jazzmaster configuration, they're known as a 1P3T-S (for shorting).

As the leaves can be manipulated to form On or Off in any given position, they aren't easily dubbed "on-on-on" or "on-off-on".

There are some extreme cases where this might come in handy, the closest known variant would probably be the Kent Armstrong version of an otherwise bog-standard 4P3T, where 2 of the 4 poles are Off in the center position, and the other 2 poles are On in the center position.

Might be interesting to see what comes out of this mad-scientist vision.




sumgai

[Deleted]

Best so far on eBay is £3 from China
Or £9 from the UK and don't forget to add on postage

So long boat from China

Well Amazon a bit dearer but said to be a real time range for It to come .. mid Jan if buy it now

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144823262415?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=_mdkxen9q7y&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=mumdbhe1tvu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=SMS
Guessing it's a On-on-On 1P2T and that just change the screws and be ok
3P2T with long enough bolt and nut

[stevewf]

And then there's this version (ebay), which seems to have the same switch function but with a slightly different form:

SPOILER: Click to show

There's a difference in the actuator. Looks like maybe there are wheels in it.
[EDIT]: It's a MOMENTARY switch. Normally returns to center position. The wheels are probably for that purpose. Doesn't match the OP specs. [/EDIT]

[Deleted]

Too long and too dear

[stevewf]

Dec 13, 2022 11:54:05 GMT -5 @angellahash said:

Too long and too dear

Yes, it costs a lot. But I see potential, with some hacking, for up to 8P2T. Maybe a use for that will emerge one day.

The switch in the OP could also have some poles added, also with some hacking, albeit probably a little easier, and at the cost of becoming very wide in physical shape.

[stevewf]

I don't wanna distract from the current thread, but in case the need could be filled by a 4P1T 3-position switch:




I found one at Philadelphia Luthier. It's available in other places too. It's marketed as a selector switch for a 2-neck guitar. It acts like a normal LP selector, but with an extra pair of poles. As such, it lacks 2nd throws compared to the switch in the OP. Like that switch, this one could be hackable, in this case to add throws (and maybe poles too).

[stevewf]

Dec 13, 2022 1:51:00 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Dec 11, 2022 21:58:30 GMT -5 stevewf said:

If it works, it might come in handy one day in a hollow body guitar (the switch is very "deep" and probably wouldn't fit in most solid body guitars).

Well, the thing is, the switching leaves are the same, only the mounting frames are different. Observe:







It shouldn't take too much imagination to see that the frames can be interchanged quite easily. 

I think, though, that maybe the shape of the leaves differ. I believe that in the oversize switch, the leaves are straight, with the two holes lining up parallel to the length, whereas the leaves in the angled switch have an "L" shape when we the metal (not visible) that's clamped between the insulators. Zig-zag for some leaves, when we add in the lugs.

Now, as to nomenclature. The oversized switch shown above is properly nomenclated as a 4P3T-NS (for non-shorting). In the standard LP or Jazzmaster configuration, they're known as a 1P3T-S (for shorting).

As the leaves can be manipulated to form On or Off in any given position, they aren't easily dubbed "on-on-on" or "on-off-on".

Thank you! I have been wanting a way to talk about this. So in this nomenclature, "throw" means "distinct position", not "distinct electrical terminal that may be connected to a pole". Example: when hackers started notching their Strat switches way back when, they added two throws.

[sumgai]

stevewf,


Essentially, you're correct on all counts. (BTW, nice find on that Jazzmaster+ switch you found.) But my final paragraph will be a bit less than an "attaboy".

Yes, the tabs bend in differing directions, but that's not insurmountable. A pair of needle-nose pliers might be enough, or in a pinch, one could braze an additional piece onto the existing leaf.

The term "throw" descends to us from the original physical switch configuration, what's been known for a very long time as a knife switch.

(The image above is a link - see many more styles, some of them with 2, 3 or 4 poles.)

Remember, In The Beginning.... there were only Off and On - you wanted current to flow, or you didn't, hence you "threw" the handle all the way to one side or the other. One observed that the handle came to rest in one of two possible "throws", even if current flowed only in one of those two throws.

And down through the ages, we've been stuck with it ever since. "Position" would make more sense, in almost any scenario one might imagine, but it's pretty difficult to overcome the inertia of "that's the way we've always done it, so why change now?".
</today's history lesson>

Dec 13, 2022 17:08:12 GMT -5 stevewf said:

..... throw" means "distinct position", not "distinct electrical terminal that may be connected to a pole

Well now we're coming up on another issue centered around how to name things.

A "pole" is defined as portion of a switch that controls electrical flow within a circuit. If two or more circuit possibilities exist, and the switch can differentiate between them, then the switch will have a "common" terminal. Think in terms of a guitar's output jack, and tracing back through the volume and tone controls, we arrive at the selector switch, and specifically we arrive at the common terminal. The pickups themselves are attached to unique terminals - they aren't common to the controls and output jack, they are only selected as desired.

And if we want to control some other circuit at the same time, we can add poles to the mechanical handle (or lever, or knob, etc.) In this case, each pole will have a common terminal (given that there is more than one choice for current to flow). Now think of Leo's pickup selector for the Tele or Strat - one pole selected the pickup, the other pole selected a Tone control, or in the case of the original Esquire (i.e. the short-lived Broadcaster), it selected a different capacitor.  Two poles, two different "jobs", one mechanical actuator.


tl;dr:

A pole is not a common, but if there is more than one choice of current flow, then that pole will have a common terminal.
A common is not a pole, it is only a terminal where a pole has more than one choice of current flow.


HTH




sumgai

[stevewf]

Dec 13, 2022 20:11:06 GMT -5 sumgai said:

A "pole" is defined as portion of a switch that controls electrical flow within a circuit. If two or more circuit possibilities exist, and the switch can differentiate between them, then the switch will have a "common" terminal. Think in terms of a guitar's output jack, and tracing back through the volume and tone controls, we arrive at the selector switch, and specifically we arrive at the common terminal. The pickups themselves are attached to unique terminals - they aren't common to the controls and output jack, they are only selected as desired.

And if we want to control some other circuit at the same time, we can add poles to the mechanical handle (or lever, or knob, etc.) In this case, each pole will have a common terminal (given that there is more than one choice for current to flow). Now think of Leo's pickup selector for the Tele or Strat - one pole selected the pickup, the other pole selected a Tone control, or in the case of the original Esquire (i.e. the short-lived Broadcaster), it selected a different capacitor.  Two poles, two different "jobs", one mechanical actuator.


tl;dr:

A pole is not a common, but if there is more than one choice of current flow, then that pole will have a common terminal.
A common is not a pole, it is only a terminal where a pole has more than one choice of current flow.


HTH




sumgai

Not too long, did read, and worth it. Thanks again. Now I feel better equipped not only how to talk about switches, but also how to think about them.

[Yogi B]

Dec 13, 2022 20:11:06 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Yes, the tabs bend in differing directions, but that's not insurmountable. A pair of needle-nose pliers might be enough, or in a pinch, one could braze an additional piece onto the existing leaf.

It seems more likely that the latter would be required, assuming we're talking about the same thing: the tabs which make contact with the actuator. On the "straight" switches they're at the top of the leaves whereas on the right-angle switches they're at the side — though note that these tabs don't just need to be displaced by the actuator, but also form the mechanism which locks the actuator into the three switch positions. I fail to see what plying manoeuvre would be able to produce modified leaves which would replicate this to a satisfactory degree.

The term "throw" descends to us from the original physical switch configuration, what's been known for a very long time as a knife switch.
...
Remember, In The Beginning.... there were only Off and On - you wanted current to flow, or you didn't, hence you "threw" the handle all the way to one side or the other. One observed that the handle came to rest in one of two possible "throws", even if current flowed only in one of those two throws.

And down through the ages, we've been stuck with it ever since.

Nowadays though, we very much do care about the presence (or possibility) of current flow in each position — if I sold you the above knife switch under the pretence that it were a SPDT would you be happy? Similarly, I must disagree with your earlier description of these Switchcraft toggle style switches as "4P3T" & "1P3T" — for the same reason that a SPDT on/on/on or on/off/on is not a triple-throw switch.

Throws count the (distinct) conducting positions of a pole (or perhaps, since terminals may be unused, contacting positions). When multiple poles are combined into a single switch it's sensible to equate the number of throws per pole with an overall number of throws for the switch, providing that each pole operates identically. In circumstances failing that qualification it's difficult or impossible to give a concise name to a switch: instead, the only accurate way to describe a switch is to report its complete functionality.

For example if I had to describe the regular four terminal Switchcraft toggle, I'd say it is a: DPST off-on/on-on/on-off (though most commonly being wired as a SPDT on/on/on, due to linking the two poles together).

A "pole" is defined as portion of a switch that controls electrical flow within a circuit. If two or more circuit possibilities exist, and the switch can differentiate between them, then the switch will have a "common" terminal.

May, not will. Think of a mustang slide switch, with each pole there's three distinct connections that can be formed but none of the terminals is common to all three possible circuits — in other words, there is no common terminal.

Plus I'd insert the word "isolated" in the first quoted sentence. Or to be even more explicit, maybe something like: a pole is a subsection of a switch that is (in all positions) electrically isolated from other subsections (if any) to which it is mechanically linked via the switch's actuator.

[stevewf]

Dec 13, 2022 1:51:00 GMT -5 sumgai said:

The preceding text may contain hyperbole and derision, substances which the State of California has determined may cause advanced stages of whining. You have been fairly warned!

LOL!

[Deleted]

I think needs to be kept to a small size
Cheap price. No point making a super switch that costs more
And the pressure on the switch, if it has to fight more metal to flip states , it might not work or break too easy .

So think cheap 2p2T on/off/on to on/on/on or/and to 4P2T. Do worry any bigger will be to big and costly and may no work.

I did want a quad pot and push pull but was getting too big and I'd half to make a new pin for the middle