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Post by newey on Jan 5, 2023 18:52:16 GMT -5
If you read through ChrisK's thread, he and I went round and round on sourcing the true blend pots. The take-away is that only the actual Fender part numbers listed in the thread are for sure what you want. Any Fender dealer would be able to order them for you.
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dcgit
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Post by dcgit on Jan 6, 2023 2:13:47 GMT -5
If you read through ChrisK's thread, he and I went round and round on sourcing the true blend pots. The take-away is that only the actual Fender part numbers listed in the thread are for sure what you want. Any Fender dealer would be able to order them for you. Thanks, I'll look into that. Are there wiring diagrams here somewhere utilizing those blend pots? |
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 6, 2023 11:24:16 GMT -5
I admit, I'm still a little unsure of what you want...what you've asked for notwithstanding. Having gone down the road of "everything...and yes, I'll take the sink, too..." on a wiring scheme, I feel your pain. Rather than delve into components and specifications, what is it that you want this wiring scheme to do that you haven't been able to do without it? Another thing to consider is operation in the field. Case in point:   This guitar does all kinds of stuff. After I play it for awhile I can remember where it is... For reference, a SERIES switch for all three pickups wasn't as cool as I expected...the phase switch that superceded it is pretty cool, though... My point is, rather than rack your brain with options, ask yourself what you want it to do and why. HTC1 |
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dcgit
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Post by dcgit on Jan 6, 2023 13:57:43 GMT -5
I admit, I'm still a little unsure of what you want...what you've asked for notwithstanding. Having gone down the road of "everything...and yes, I'll take the sink, too..." on a wiring scheme, I feel your pain. Rather than delve into components and specifications, what is it that you want this wiring scheme to do that you haven't been able to do without it? Fair enough - I have wandered about a bit in this thread. What I want to be able to do is control the blend of pickups on my strat with two volume knobs. This is something that is important to me and something that I do on my Gibson style guitar all the time but am unable to do on a typical strat. This is an HSH strat but only two pups are in use at one time. I want as few controls as possible to achieve my goal, so two volume knobs + blade switch + coil split, using a push/pull on one of the knobs for the coil split. Originally, when I started this thread, I wanted a master tone knob as well, but posts here have made me reconsider that. I would rather have two volumes that change pup assignments depending on the blade switch position than three individual volumes. The purpose of posting here is to find out if that is feasible and the best way to do it if it is. Someone here suggested a blend knob with a master volume as an alternative, and since learning that a Fender blend pot is not actually a pan pot, I'm willing to consider a blend + push/pull master volume if that is a more appropriate way to do this. |
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Post by newey on Jan 7, 2023 21:03:00 GMT -5
OK, so I throw this out there just preliminarily, we'll need a second set of eyes and also to be sure it's exactly what you want. I used SD wire colors for the HBs and just picked colors for the single coil. You may need to translate colors. Also, the coil split splits to the North coil of both HBs so you will want to be sure the Middle SC is a South coil. If not, then the push/pull needs to short the HB series junctions to output instead of grounding them as shown. Since the middle pickup is involved in all the 2-pickup combos, it gets its own volume pot. The second pot switches between the bridge pickup and the neck, depending on the 5-way switch position. The pots are wired "modern" style, meaning that (like an LP), when both volumes re in circuit, turning one down all the way will kill the output. The pots could be wired "'50's style" if desired, but as we've discussed, that creates its own set of problems. But I think this gets you where you want to be:  |
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dcgit
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Post by dcgit on Jan 8, 2023 13:28:11 GMT -5
But I think this gets you where you want to be Excellent, thanks for this! Although there is also the middle setting in my original wiring scheme, which has the neck and bridge pups together. (I don't require different coil selections for the neck and neck/middle single coil combinations as illustrated here. I would be fine having the same side of the humbuckers used for each of the single coil settings.): 
Maybe there is no better way to do this than to have three individual volumes. Another two knob possibility I was thinking of was a volume for one pup and a push/pull blend + coil split for the other two. I saw that Fralin sells a blend push/pull: www.fralinpickups.com/product/push-pull-blender-pot/Here are his wiring suggestions for the push/pull blender pot: www.fralinpickups.com/2019/05/13/push-pull-blender-pot/ |
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Post by newey on Jan 8, 2023 17:21:43 GMT -5
OK, scratch that, I thought we were talking std Strat selections. I didn't page back to the first page of the thread . . .
You can certainly try a blend if you want.
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dcgit
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Post by dcgit on Jan 8, 2023 22:43:30 GMT -5
OK, scratch that, I thought we were talking std Strat selections. I didn't page back to the first page of the thread . . . You can certainly try a blend if you want. Thanks for your efforts |
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Post by Yogi B on Jan 9, 2023 5:39:43 GMT -5
If you read through ChrisK's thread, he and I went round and round on sourcing the true blend pots. The take-away is that only the actual Fender part numbers listed in the thread are for sure what you want. Any Fender dealer would be able to order them for you. In that thread ashcatlt also noted that Bourns has stared making pots with the same taper: This thread hasn't been posted to in a while, and maybe this would be more appropriate somewhere else, but I was looking around for something, and came across Bournes blend/balance pots which appear (according to the data sheet) to be actual true blend pots per chrisk's definition above for less $3 a piece, which is super cheap compared to any of the guitar parts stores listed above. 500K Knurled Shaft250K Plain Shaft500K Plain Shaft(Plus: 250k Knurled Shaft. Edit: corrected link.)
Are there wiring diagrams here somewhere utilizing those blend pots? I don't know if there's anything pre-existing that'll do quite what you're after. The difficulty in this design comes from the specificity of coil split choices which effectively ties up two poles of the superswitch, leaving only two remaining poles to implement the rest of the switching. Below is my attempt at a blend wiring. I've tweaked the left hand side of the superswitch (that which implements the coil cuts) from the DiMarzio drawing such that it makes slightly more sense to me, but it should function equivalently. The 'trick' to 'disable' the blend pot in positions 1 & 5 is to attach the selected pickup to both gangs of the pot, but doing so requires that the blend pot be ungrounded. This has minimal effect effect upon the sweep of the blend pot (and alleviates extra loading that would occur otherwise), but means that at the extremes of rotation the deselected pickup won't be completely removed from the signal. |
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Post by reTrEaD on Jan 9, 2023 12:12:09 GMT -5
Below is my attempt at a blend wiring. I've tweaked the left hand side of the superswitch (that which implements the coil cuts) from the DiMarzio drawing such that it makes slightly more sense to me, but it should function equivalently. The 'trick' to 'disable' the blend pot in positions 1 & 5 is to attach the selected pickup to both gangs of the pot, but doing so requires that the blend pot be ungrounded. This has minimal effect effect upon the sweep of the blend pot (and alleviates extra loading that would occur otherwise), but means that at the extremes of rotation the deselected pickup won't be completely removed from the signal. In my estimation, the blended-out pickup will not significantly add to the overall signal. This seems a very good strategy where the positives strongly outweigh the negatives. Unfortunately I have neither the time nor the necessary focus to properly vet your diagram right now. |
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dcgit
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Post by dcgit on Jan 9, 2023 13:59:18 GMT -5
at the extremes of rotation the deselected pickup won't be completely removed from the signal
I don't see this being much of a problem. This looks very promising to me - thanks for taking the time to do it! I'm pretty clueless about this stuff, so correct me if I'm wrong: The blend pot controls the bridge and neck pups and the volume controls the middle pup, correct? And that's a master tone? I understand the blade switch settings; those are what I'm after. |
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Post by jhng on Jan 9, 2023 17:17:48 GMT -5
Hello, I saw this thread and noticed that there is a way to alter MattB's two volume wiring to avoid the issue of having both pots loading the circuit in positions 1 and 5. Given that dcgit said they were familiar with Gibson volume controls, it might be worth returning to that option if it preserves that more familiar functionality.
The suggestion is as follows:
1. Use two poles of the five-way switch to select pickups, including for the coil split 2 and 4 positions. You can do this by connecting the switch straight to the relevant coil split wire in positions 2 and 4. One pole gets the Neck pickup plus the Middle pickup in position 4. The other one gets the Bridge pickup plus the Middle pickup in position 2.
2. Run the common terminals of those two poles to the two volume pots.
3. Then use the other two poles of the five-way to select which volume pot (or both) gets connected to the jack.
4. The master tone control can go between the second set of poles and the jack. Not a traditional set up but I guess it will work.
5. For the coil split switch in positions 1, 3 and 5, you use a DPDT (whether on a push/pull, toggle or whatever). Each side of the DPDT is used to short the coil split wire for one pickup to its respective hot.
There are a few compromises in terms of shunted coils or coils hanging from hot. And it also won't be possible to swap which Neck coil is active between positions 2 and 3 in coil split mode. However, the basic functionality as far as pickup selection and volume pots goes is as per dcgit's original idea, but without the issue of both volumes loading the circuit in positions 1 and 5. In the other positions both volumes obviously do load the circuit but that is because they are both in use (like the Gibson middle position).
Hope that helps. Things are currently a bit quieter than they have been for months, so if there is any interest in this option I can probably find time for a quick diagram.
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dcgit
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Post by dcgit on Jan 9, 2023 18:13:09 GMT -5
Things are currently a bit quieter than they have been for months, so if there is any interest in this option I can probably find time for a quick diagram.
That would be appreciated! Front & back volume pots matching whichever front & back pups are currently selected makes the most practical sense to me in terms of adjustments during a performance since it's what I'm used to, and I will likely only adjust one of the two anyway. However, if a blend pot allows for a purer signal and provides the same functionality, then that's worth considering. Is there a significant advantage to one over the other?
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Post by reTrEaD on Jan 9, 2023 18:41:32 GMT -5
And that's a master tone? Correct. The blend pot controls the bridge and neck pups and the volume controls the middle pup, correct? Not correct. The volume is a master volume. When any two pickups are selected ... - The pickup closest to the neck is straight thru to the input of the volume control when the blend control is at midpoint through fully clockwise. It is attenuated when the blend control is rotated counter-clockwise from the mid-point. - The pickup farthest from the neck is straight thru to the input of the volume control when the blend control is at midpoint through fully counter-clockwise. It is attenuated when the blend control is rotated clockwise from the mid-point. If you notice on the pickup selection table, some entries are in pale-blue and some are yellow. Those in pale-blue are loudest when the blend control is anywhere from midpoint through fully clockwise. Those in yellow are loudest when the blend control is anywhere from midpoint through fully counter-clockwise. Pickup selections in positions 1 and 5 are listed in pure white. The blend control does nothing in those positions. Does that clear things up for you? |
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dcgit
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Post by dcgit on Jan 9, 2023 23:44:01 GMT -5
And that's a master tone? Correct. The blend pot controls the bridge and neck pups and the volume controls the middle pup, correct? Not correct. The volume is a master volume. When any two pickups are selected ... - The pickup closest to the neck is straight thru to the input of the volume control when the blend control is at midpoint through fully clockwise. It is attenuated when the blend control is rotated counter-clockwise from the mid-point. - The pickup farthest from the neck is straight thru to the input of the volume control when the blend control is at midpoint through fully counter-clockwise. It is attenuated when the blend control is rotated clockwise from the mid-point. If you notice on the pickup selection table, some entries are in pale-blue and some are yellow. Those in pale-blue are loudest when the blend control is anywhere from midpoint through fully clockwise. Those in yellow are loudest when the blend control is anywhere from midpoint through fully counter-clockwise. Pickup selections in positions 1 and 5 are listed in pure white. The blend control does nothing in those positions. Does that clear things up for you? Yes, I think I've got it now, slick setup! I think I would be very happy with this - it seems to do everything I want and has a master volume as well. |
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dcgit
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Post by dcgit on Jan 10, 2023 0:26:37 GMT -5
Things are currently a bit quieter than they have been for months, so if there is any interest in this option I can probably find time for a quick diagram. Jhng: Just wanted to let you know, I'm thinking I'll go with YogiB's blend circuit. I appreciate your offer and don't want to waste your time. Thanks |
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Post by jhng on Jan 10, 2023 4:11:07 GMT -5
Jhng: Just wanted to let you know, I'm thinking I'll go with YogiB's blend circuit. I appreciate your offer and don't want to waste your time. Thanks No problem. The blend pot will definitely load the circuit less and give a better tone. Yogi's wiring on the blend pot looks fine. However, there is an issue on the superswitch. The two red wires from N+ should each go to three lugs on the switch rather than four. That needs a small correction. At the moment it appears that both pickups are active in the 1 and 5 positions. |
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Post by dcgit on Jan 10, 2023 10:37:01 GMT -5
This link doesn't work, but this is the blend pot I need, right? Since a push/pull is a little awkward with a strat knob, would an S-1 be a good alternative for the coil splitting? Not a huge deal, just curious. What about a no-load tone pot? (You guys have inspired me to do this myself, which I suspect you will regret now..) |
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Post by reTrEaD on Jan 10, 2023 12:06:38 GMT -5
This link doesn't work, but this is the blend pot I need, right? Wait for Yogi B to confirm but I'm fairly certain he mean the link to go here, for a 250k knurled shaft blend-pot: www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Bourns/PDB182-GTRB1-254MN?qs=MAZTpT1IVl9TMc4dn4srkA%3D%3DSince a push/pull is a little awkward with a strat knob, would an S-1 be a good alternative for the coil splitting? That would work. Or a push-push pot which is probably cheaper and in my opinion more convenient than a push-pull. What about a no-load tone pot? Doubt you'll find a no-load S-1 or even a no-load push-pull or push-push. But if you want a no-load tone pot, you can just use a volume control with the switch function you desire. |
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Post by reTrEaD on Jan 10, 2023 12:18:20 GMT -5
Below is my attempt at a blend wiring. I've tweaked the left hand side of the superswitch (that which implements the coil cuts) from the DiMarzio drawing such that it makes slightly more sense to me, but it should function equivalently. I spent some time with this and it appears to work as-advertised. I try to avoid shunting coils when splitting but there are too many tasks and too few poles available to make that happen in this instance. Nifty how positions 2 and 4 incorporate a split HB regardless of the position of the DPDT. |
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dcgit
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Post by dcgit on Jan 10, 2023 13:10:06 GMT -5
Doubt you'll find a no-load S-1 or even a no-load push-pull or push-push. But if you want a no-load tone pot, you can just use a volume control with the switch function you desire. That was what I was considering - using an S-1 for the master volume/coil split, then the blend and a no-load tone pot. But again, I have no experience with this so I'm just guessing this is a sensible way to go. I've heard some guitarists complain about push/push pots, saying they're not as solid feeling and that they wear out quicker, etc. Personally my biggest complaint would be if they sit higher than the other two knobs. |
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Post by newey on Jan 10, 2023 13:19:52 GMT -5
You can DIY a no-load pot by disassembling it and scraping off the end of the resistive track. I haven't done this, but JohnH has and says that it's not as daunting a task as it seems. I believe John posted a tutorial on doing this many years ago, it's around here somewhere.
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Post by stevewf on Jan 10, 2023 20:46:55 GMT -5
... means that at the extremes of rotation the deselected pickup won't be completely removed from the signal. So what about a 500K Ω blender instead (already linked, above), to reduce that effect, compared to the 250K Ω? |
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Post by Yogi B on Jan 10, 2023 22:39:33 GMT -5
Yep, and fixed in the original. I think I got distracted whilst deciding against writing "plus a few other values...", and forgot to paste the actual link. [... implying use of S-1 as a tone control ...] Another minor S-1 annoyance, if using Strat knobs, is the push-button cap only comes in "Volume" flavour. So, if you did want to use one as a tone, it'd be mislabelled. The caps do also come in Tele flavour which could be a way around that problem (i.e. paring the blank Tele cap with the Strat knob), but I don't know if the Tele cap would be fully compatible with the other Strat S-1 psrtd. I don't recall if I've seen anyone try it, and I'm thinking it could be too tall and stand proud. ... means that at the extremes of rotation the deselected pickup won't be completely removed from the signal. So what about a 500K Ω blender instead (already linked, above), to reduce that effect, compared to the 250K Ω? The trouble is that the halves of the M/N tapers are linear so going up to a 500k pot means sacrificing a quarter turn (at extreme of the blend) for the marginal difference between mostly off at 250k and even more mostly off at 500k. What would be better is a hybrid between a blend pot & a pan pot: one that has minimal resistance over half it's range (like the blend pots), but progresses from that point with a log/anti-log taper (like a pan pot). Alternatively, since modding pots to be no-load has been mentioned, that can also apply to the blender in order to make the blended out pickup to completely off (e.g. see this talk-bass thread). In such cases it might make sense to use an even lower value pot — but, without the additional fiddling, 250k is probably the best compromise. |
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Post by dcgit on Jan 11, 2023 2:26:08 GMT -5
[/quote]Another minor S-1 annoyance, if using Strat knobs, is the push-button cap only comes in "Volume" flavour. So, if you did want to use one as a tone, it'd be mislabelled. I think this is also true of the blend knob - I haven't found any strat style knobs that say "blend" (yet). Alternatively, since modding pots to be no-load has been mentioned, that can also apply to the blender in order to make the blended out pickup to completely off (e.g. see this talk-bass thread). In such cases it might make sense to use an even lower value pot — but, without the additional fiddling, 250k is probably the best compromise.[/quote] That's interesting! |
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Post by newey on Jan 11, 2023 12:26:25 GMT -5
I think this is also true of the blend knob - I haven't found any strat style knobs that say "blend" (yet). About 10 years ago I searched for that as well and was unable to find anything. I eventually just ditched the lettering on all 3 knos in favor of knobs with a mother-of-pearl inlay on top instead. So, unless someone within the past 10 years has started making them, I doubt your search will prove fruitful |
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dcgit
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Post by dcgit on Jan 11, 2023 13:22:25 GMT -5
I think this is also true of the blend knob - I haven't found any strat style knobs that say "blend" (yet). About 10 years ago I searched for that as well and was unable to find anything. I eventually just ditched the lettering on all 3 knos in favor of knobs with a mother-of-pearl inlay on top instead. So, unless someone within the past 10 years has started making them, I doubt your search will prove fruitful I'll be fine with a second "volume" knob. I'll stick with traditional strat knobs for now. If it's relatively easy for someone like me to adapt Yogi's wiring diagram for different pots, I think I'll like to go with the following: Knob 1 (closest to the strings): Fender S-1 pot for Master Volume & Coil Split (Should a treble bleed be used here?) Knob 2: Blend (PDB182-GTRB1-254MN) Knob 3: Master Tone, No-load pot The S-1 looks like a good idea to me because strat knobs are hard to use with a push/pull pot and the S-1 seems like a nicer push/push than is typical. I now know which blend pot to order, but if someone could point out which no-load tone and 5-way blade switch to order from Mouser that would be appreciated. Also, I have no idea what kind of wire or caps to buy. I found these on the Philadelphia Luthier Supply website. I have to order a couple of things from there anyway; since I'm in Canada (Montréal) and shipping across the border is stupidly expensive, it might make sense to order from Philadelphia Luthier Supply despite the higher parts prices: www.philadelphialuthiertools.com/electronics/pots/cts-250k-balance-blend-center-detent-audio-potentiometer/www.philadelphialuthiertools.com/electronics/pots/cts-500k-split-shaft-no-load-audio-taper-potentiometer-fine-spline/There's also solomusicgear.com, which is Canadian. This is probably where I'll order the S-1: www.solomusicgear.com/product/fender-s-1-250k-switch-pot-for-strat/ |
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Post by newey on Jan 11, 2023 19:50:55 GMT -5
Without knowing for sure, I would suspect these are pan pots, not true blend. You don't want to know how many supposed "blend" pots sit in my parts drawer because I belived the seller. Caveat emptor and all that.
The no-load pot is fine, assuming you want 500K.
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dcgit
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Post by dcgit on Jan 11, 2023 20:35:49 GMT -5
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Post by dcgit on Jan 12, 2023 19:37:33 GMT -5
If I want to substitute an S-1 Master Volume/Coil Split for the A500k Volume in this diagram, and a No-Load Tone for the A500k Tone, would it be as simple as re-assigning two wires from the Tone to the S-1? (If this is overly complicated, I'll use the pots specified in the diagram, not a huge deal.) Perhaps it's easier to use a push/pull pot for the master volume and coil splitting instead of an S-1. That way I can use a no-load tone. Thanks again to everyone for your help! This forum is a breath of fresh air. |
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