Lil Killers

[vonFrenchie]

I recently put 3 Lil Killers (GuitarFetish's Single coil sized humbucker) in a friend's strat.


Now he wants some to be able to put them in and out of phase and to work as single coils too. I found this schematic on guitarelectronics.com and was planning to use it.

Also instead of a five way switch he wants 3 Kill switches. I have two questions. What wires go to what (the south and north start and finish) and how can I wire an on/on switch to be a kill switch (if its possible)?

[darkcyde]

Anyone is more then welcome to correct me if I am wrong but I am almost sure you cannot do it on 3 switches. Infact I think it would take 3 on-on-on and 3 on-off-on to do it.



For ease of use, you might want to talk with them about using a 5-way and push-pull pots to get the job done. it would be alot less holes :-)

Cheers,
Mike

[RandomHero]

I fell into the idea of more switches, more love with my first guitar. Sure, I could get a world of tones out of three pickups, but switching from my favorite rhythm to my favorite lead mid-song?

...there better be a pretty considerable bass/drum solo in there. Tell him to consider that, for his own sake.

[vonFrenchie]

All agreed on the five way?

Basically this is what he wants.

Neck
Mid
Bridge
Neck/Mid (both humbuckers)
Neck/mid (split one or both)

or

Neck
Mid
Bridge
Neck/Bridge (both humbuckers)
Neck/bridge (split one or both)

Is that possible?

[UnklMickey]

that looks very feasible.

with a standard strat 5-way and a push-pull or mini-toggle you could have the basic strat sequence with all HBs. in one mode.

and when you pull the pot (or flip the switch) for the second mode, you could have coil-shunting for position 2 and 4 only. that will get you the pairs of singles (do it right and there is still hum-cancelling) in those positions only.

phase switches for each pup would be optional. (do it right and there is still hum-cancelling)


using a superswitch, in place of the standard 5-way would be cleaner.

and you can organize the 5 positions in any order that you want.


unk

[vonFrenchie]

Once again... that kind of made sense. This time I think its just because Im not a strat guy. So with a combo of a 5way and a mini he can get alot of stuff.

Basically (not in this order)

Neck
Mid
Bridge
Neck/Mid
Bridge/Mid

Then again but all single coils?

I understand the phase inversion.

[UnklMickey]

the other nice thing about the superswitch, is you could also limit yourself to only having 1 or 2 positions as HB singles. (like middle HB for instance)

that will free up a position or two for things like neck and bridge, or all on.

but your friend might want to keep things more standard.

decisions, decisions....

[vonFrenchie]

Basically he said, "I want my guitar to be as versitle as it can be" He doesnt care about the number of switches or drilling holes (its a strat the pickguards cost 10 bucks for a new one). Just as long as he knows how to use them.

[UnklMickey]

it would probably make sense to look at what 5 basic combinations (or single HB) he wants, then figure out whether than can be done with a standard 5-way, or if you will need a superswitch.

and where the auto coil-spitting (mode 2) should occur.

you only want an even number of coils if you want to keep hum-canceling.

so splitting a single HB is not good.

splitting pairs make good sense.



EDIT:

sorry vonFrenchie,

i feel like i'm tring to hit a moving target here.

after i saw the last edit of your previous post, it looks like Darkcyde's idea might be better.

individual switches get sort of cluttered, but they allow more choices.

[vonFrenchie]

I was looking at John Atchley's individual pickup switches and his humbucker switching page. Is it possible (but would be pretty cluttered) if I took this switching set up for each pickup to chose between single and dual coil.

Then went to this


Or would a 5 way be better.

I just talked to him and this is his final descision on the combos
Neck
Mid (or bridge)
Neck/Mid (or bridge) humbucking
Mid/Bridge (split)
Mid/Bridge (humbucking)

Also if phase inversion could be in there it would be welcomed. But its not a must.

[UnklMickey]

here's another thought.

i've been told those rail pickups have a convincingly "single coil sound" when they are in parallel.

so you might consider having each pickup go first to it's own (local)series/parallel switch, then to it's own phase switch.

so far you have 6 mini toggles.

then the output of the phase switches feeds whatever master switching arrangement you choose.

and ALL positions will be hum-canceling, because you are always using both coils of each pickup.

[vonFrenchie]

Hmm. If only there was a possibility to cut down the number of switches. But I like the series/parallel idea.

As for pots he has the standard Vol and 2 tones.

[CheshireCat]

vonfrenchie said:

Hmm. If only there was a possibility to cut down the number of switches. But I like the series/parallel idea.

As for pots he has the standard Vol and 2 tones.

Well, to start with, you could do this with a SuperSwitch and five toggles, with a toggle to go back and forth on the SuperSwitch so you have basic strat switching on the one setting, and the missing combos on the other setting. No it's 90% intuitive and no repeats of positions.

Then, have one toggle for the phase inverter, where it will phase invert no matter what combo you have, and the other three toggles would be splitters for each pickup.

That would be a good place to start as a base level, getting every combo you'd want, without weird combos of switches that you'd have to patch in. Basically, everything would be intuitive. If you phase inverting, just flip the switch. If you want to split a pickup, flip the switch, and so on.

Now, I noticed that he has eliminated some combos from the mix. If that's the case, then gradually you just pull back, and condense it from there.

Now, incidentally, the series/parallel selecting (assuming you mean between the pickups) is already built into the SuperSwitch and tandem toggle, so you wouldn't need a seperate switch. If you're really all about being able to wire the coils of the buckers in either series or parallel (which I've never had much use for myself) then just make the three splitters into the threeway switches where you get series/split/parallel. Problem solved.

More later.

Chesh

[CheshireCat]

vonfrenchie said:

Basically he said, "I want my guitar to be as versitle as it can be" He doesnt care about the number of switches or drilling holes (its a strat the pickguards cost 10 bucks for a new one). Just as long as he knows how to use them.

See above.

Basically, in practical terms, that would be the UUSS with an extra splitter for the middle pickup.

[vonFrenchie]

Ive made this drawing



The row of DPDT Switches in the middle are ON/ON/ON Switches shown in this drawing from GuitarElectronics


Then there is the standard Strat knife switch with a neck on switch from this drawing that I got from the mods page on guitarnuts


(I want it to be a SPST switch but I didnt know how to wire it so I just drew it like the DPTP that he had.)

Then to the NeckT/MidT/Vol then out.

By my calculation there are 90 combinations of switching, 76 of which are unique.

[CheshireCat]

vonfrenchie said:

The row of DPDT Switches in the middle are ON/ON/ON Switches shown in this drawing from GuitarElectronics


Then there is the standard Strat knife switch with a neck on switch from this drawing that I got from the mods page on guitarnuts

By my calculation there are 90 combinations of switching, 76 of which are unique.

What about series/parallel switching and phase inverting between the pickups, and do you realize that you would be putting the coils of the pickups out of phase with themselves (which would lead to a weak sound)? While some people like that sound with full sized humbuckers for certain effects, I think with the coils so close together on a single coil sized bucker, the cancellation would be significant, almost cancelling out the signal completely.

Chesh

[vonFrenchie]

Interesting. I agree with the nearly cancelling the sound out. How could they be put so that the entire humbucker is out of phase with the next.

[UnklMickey]

locate the switch that puts the 2 coils in series or parallel (or series and coil split) first. THEN the phase switch comes next.

[vonFrenchie]

This is what it would look like.



Im planning to drop the knife switch and the neck on. Then I would switch the midtone to a Mid/Bridge volume pot (by his recommendation).

First row of switches are Humbucking/South Coil
Second row are John's individual.
Then the knife and neckon.
Followed by the tone and volume.
I left the majority of the grounding out just to keep it clean. We all know what that would look like so its not really necessary.

8 switches is way to much.

[CheshireCat]

vonfrenchie said:

Interesting. I agree with the nearly cancelling the sound out. How could they be put so that the entire humbucker is out of phase with the next.

Well, first off, don't even go the route of phase inverting the coils of the same pickup. Skip that.

The way you phase invert one pickup so it's out of phase with the next is actually pretty easy. Just reverse the leads of the pickup, effectively running it "backwards". You won't notice any change in and of itself, but when it is then summed with an adjacent pickup, you'll get phase cancellation, but because there will be a much greater difference in the singal sources, it won't be as substantial a cancellation.

Now, here's an interesting trick you can use. Using a 4PDT toggle and a SuperSwitch, you use two of the poles of the 4PDT to phase invert the Neck pickup. That will work for all combos that use the neck. But what if you have combos from the fourth position which combined the Mid and Bridge pickup, in either series or parallel, and the Neck pickup isn't part of the equation? You no longer have the phase cancellation effect. Well, the way you do that is run a lead from the 4th position terminals on the SuperSwitch to the second set of poles of the 4PDT toggle switch. Ergo, no matter what setting you have the blade switch on, you get phase inversion.

Series/Parallel Switching can be incorporated into a UUSS type set-up, and you can also have three splitters, one for each pickup.

Now, I just want to reiterate this point:

When I wanted to start upgrading my Utah, and wanted to go from H/x/H to H/S/H, adding an extra Mid pickup, and going from basic, bare bones LP switching, I was looking into different methods for getting more combo posibilities other than just the basic strat combos. To that end, I looked at a neck-on (or brigde-on) switch. Not bad, but kinda limiting. It also illuminated another consideration: a SPST toggle takes up as much space as any other toggle, up to and including a 4PDT toggle, which obviously has considerably more switching power than an SPST. Likewise, a regular stock strat bladeswitch takes up as much space as a (4P5T) SuperSwitch.

So, here's the deal: if you are going to cross the line drawn in the sand, don't just stop there - some few steps past that line - but continue all the way up to that next line in the sand. IOW, if you are commiting yourself to drilling/routing/making space for a new switch, then just don't cross the line a few paces with merely an on/off SPST switch, but maximize this new capacity to really maximize your flexibility and versatility.

In that regard, the Core of the UUSS takes up exactly the same amount of space as a basic stock strat blade and an SPST switch (give or take a bit of elbow room under the pickguard). Ergo, for the cost of the space of a stock strat bladeswitch and a toggle, you can get this:



That gives you all of the combos available from three pickups, short the compound combos, upon which the jury is still out in terms of desirable tones. So, you get N, M, B, N+M, M+B, N+B, N>M, M>B, N>B, and ALL3>. That covers all the lost combos, plus your series/parallel switching.

Then, you use the above mentioned 4PDT toggle for phase inverting, for out of phase sounds, no matter what combo you pick, and in addition you can use three SPSTs for splitting.

That's only 5 toggles, you can park the three splitters near their respective pickups if you like, and flank the SuperSwitch with the two other toggles for selector mode switching and phase inverting. This also leaves the rest of the guitar clean for vol and tone pots, or even EQing with EMG circuits.

The best part of all this is that it is all intuitive. If you want a split humbucker sound, just split it. If you want phase inversion, just invert it. If you want basic strat options, toggle the mode switch off. If you want the lost combos, toggle the mode switch on.

Simple.

Chesh

[UnklMickey]

cheshirecat said:

...Well, first off, don't even go the route of phase inverting the coils of the same pickup. Skip that....

i couldn't agree more.


you lose hum-cancelling when using it as a single, and it will be thin.


doing a split is better.

and IMHO putting the 2 coils of the same pickup in parallel is probably better yet.


so Chesh,

if he did just 3 s/p switches for the 2 coils of each pickup, would that dovetail well into your UUSS configuration?


unk


EDIT: i'm sorry, it looks like you already answered my question, Chesh.

[vonFrenchie]

Yeah... ok

A few questions
on the superswitch or whatever it is, is there a B- or N+ connection?
Couldnt you just wire positions 2, 4 and 11 together (on the 12 pole switch) (2 being the second in the top row, 11 is the third in the bottom row.)



I left out the pickup connections due to the phase switches. How could I reverse the phase of the entire pickup and not just one coil? Could I do something like John's individual pickup switches but with STDP switches instead of DTDP?

[CheshireCat]

vonfrenchie said:

A few questions
on the superswitch or whatever it is, is there a B- or N+ connection?

B- comes from ground. N+ goes to output (vol, eq, tone, whatever).

vonfrenchie said:

Couldnt you just wire positions 2, 4 and 11 together (on the 12 pole switch) (2 being the second in the top row, 11 is the third in the bottom row.)

What "12 pole switch"?

vonfrenchie said:

I left out the pickup connections due to the phase switches. How could I reverse the phase of the entire pickup and not just one coil? Could I do something like John's individual pickup switches but with STDP switches instead of DTDP?

What are you referring to?

Chesh

[vonFrenchie]

Oops. I meant 4 pole.

And I am referring to this nice illustration.


One On/Off/On Switch for each pickup

Could they be substituted for On/On switches?

[CheshireCat]

vonfrenchie said:

Oops. I meant 4 pole.

And I am referring to this nice illustration.


One On/Off/On Switch for each pickup

Could they be substituted for On/On switches?

In what regard? If those are phase inverters, which I believe they are, a la Brian May's Red Special, there's no need. You can do all that with one 4PDT toggle, in conjunction with the SuperSwitch. Either you want phase inverting, or you don't, and to that end you just turn it on, or off.

Also, when you recreated the UUSS diagram, what did you do differently? It looks the same except for one or two connections. Was that intentional, or were you trying to recreate it precisely?

Chesh

[vonFrenchie]

Wow... I messed up. No excuses for that one. I just messed up bad.

I didnt know that the 4PDT switch/Superswitch could do phase inverting. That was one thing that was unclear to me. I read your side note and thought that I had to add my own phase switch.

So are you suggesting that I just solder together the red and white (the finishing wires) and use Green as a negative and Black as my positive?



An artist is always the last one to catch his mistake.... to bad I'm not an artist.

One last question. This setup has one volume and one tone correct?

[CheshireCat]

vonfrenchie said:

Wow... I messed up. No excuses for that one. I just messed up bad.

I didnt know that the 4PDT switch/Superswitch could do phase inverting. That was one thing that was unclear to me. I read your side note and thought that I had to add my own phase switch.

So are you suggesting that I just solder together the red and white (the finishing wires) and use Green as a negative and Black as my positive?

An artist is always the last one to catch his mistake.... to bad I'm not an artist.

One last question. This setup has one volume and one tone correct?

No, you were originally correct. The phase inverter is a seperate switch. Use a 4PDT toggle, and that way you can set it up so that you'll have phase inverting no matter what combo you use. Add to this the 3 splitters for the mini-buckers.

I don't follow your question about the color leads, and I don't know what color scheme the Killers use.

As far as tone or vol, that doesn't matter. I actually have a master vol for the mag pickups, and instead of a tone pot, I use EMG's BTC and VMC circuits, which provides 3-band EQ with sweepable midrange.

I'll see if I can add more bits of diagram so that it will become more clear. In fact, I might just go ahead and expand the UUSS to include all those other elements, since they come into play so often.

Chesh

[Mini-Strat_Maine]

cheshirecat said:

I don't follow your question about the color leads, and I don't know what color scheme the Killers use.

GFS pups use the same color code as Seymour Duncans.
www.has-sound.com/info.htm#Humbucker%20Pickup%20Wiring%20Color%20Codes

[CheshireCat]

ministratmaine said:

cheshirecat said:

I don't follow your question about the color leads, and I don't know what color scheme the Killers use.

GFS pups use the same color code as Seymour Duncans.
www.has-sound.com/info.htm#Humbucker%20Pickup%20Wiring%20Color%20Codes

Ah, interesting.

Alrighty . . . given that, I shall rework the UUSS so that it includes the splitting and phase inverting, especially since more and more those things are on the table.

Chesh

[vonFrenchie]

Thanks. I must have forgotten to say that they were Duncan colors. Sorry