jhollon
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Post by jhollon on Jul 31, 2006 1:52:37 GMT -5
Hi all, I sure hope someone here will be nice enough to help me. I have an older strat that I decided to shield using this method on guitar nuts. In the process of upgrading some stuff while shielding i came across this store.guitarfetish.com/onmucihotrot.html and got it pretty cheap in an ebay auction new from the site. The instructions they give make me scratch my head with the new sheilded setup. I am hoping someone out there can lead me right. The way the drawing i have modified is how it is wired now and it does nothing, no sound no nothing. I am obvisously missing something. I really want to make this work as i have heard this active device in a friends guitar and it sounds amazing. Can someone look at the drawing and tell me where i am wrong according to the sheilding methods in "quieting the beast". A little background. the chip is powered by a 9v battery in the cavity. The instructions tell me to wire it as follows (reflected in the moded pic i will enclose. B+ --> Goes to the (+) side of the battery INPUT --> Goes to middle leg of the volume pot GND --> Goes to both the (-) side of the battery and the (-) on input jack OUT --> Goes to the (+) on the input jack the pic again shows (according to instructs) how it should be wired, but because i sheilded this puppy, i think i am missing something. Can someone out there PLEASE HELP ME? Thanks a ton, Jeff PIC -- www1.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=47925155/PictureID=1460414718/a=28540690_28540690/t_=28540690[/D:\My Documents\My Pictures\wiring.gif] ****If someone can't get to the picture, let me know how to insert them into the post and i will update.
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Post by UnklMickey on Jul 31, 2006 14:11:03 GMT -5
hi jhollon, welcome to guitarnuts2. it doesn't seem to be very easy to display an image from snapfish directly in a post on this board. you'll find it much easier to get a free photobucket (or similar) account. i copied your image into my account, to display it this time. i hope that wasn't too presumptuous. there are 2 problems i see. first: there is no switching for the power. second: there is no connection between the signal ground [the node where all the pickup (-) connections go], and the GND of the pre-amp / output jack ground. to just get it to work, connect a wire from the pickup (-) to the GND of the pre-amp. but to get it "right", you'll need to perform some switching of the battery (-) connection through the output jack. i've just gotten back from vacation, so i'm way too busy to do much more. i hope this gets you started, and one of the other members will pick up the ball from here. unk
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Post by sumgai on Aug 1, 2006 2:50:17 GMT -5
........ I hope this gets you started, and one of the other members will pick up the ball from here. Nice handoff, unk! jhollon, A couple of things here. First, to the forums! Second, one of your image links is actually pointing to your hard drive!! But it wouldn't work anyway, it's not formatted correctly. Fortunately, your snapfish link is formatted correctly, and works as it should, so we needn't worry about that. Third, the common way to implement switching an internal battery on and off is to use an ordinary stereo jack instead of the stock output jack (which is mono). This stereo jack is also called a 'TRS', or Tip-Ring-Sleeve jack. You hook up the OUT wire to the same place as before (the Tip), ditto for the GND connection (the Sleeve). However, the MINUS of the battery should go to the Ring terminal. The reasoning here is, when a plug is inserted into the jack, the solid sleeve of that plug will make contact with both the Ring and the ground terminals of the jack (it's shorting the two terminals together). This completes the path between the MINUS and ground, thus switching on the power to the circuit. unk has already covered the part about connecting the three pickup's ground wires to the GND of the circuit. In looking at the original pictorial diagram (on the guitarnuts site), I see that you broke the ground connection from the output jack to the volume pot. You haven't given us a reason why you did that, but it's of no concern. Just restore that connection, and you'll be all set. HTH sumgai (Edited to correct confusing terminology (plug's barrel was changed to plug's sleeve).
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jhollon
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Post by jhollon on Aug 1, 2006 11:03:04 GMT -5
alright, i did some poking around and figured out some of the things that were brought up. I put a wire from the GND of the preamp to the ring terminal for ground where all the other grounds are at and also connected up a stereo jack for battery switching. I think something is still terribly wrong. Maybe i am just stupid (have been accused of much worse) I have the (-) from the battery going to one side of the output jack, one (-) going from the output jack (-) to the ring terminal system ground and the (+) from the output jack to the output of the preamp. I plugged it in expecting nothing and hoping for the best and i got worse. Now, i get some sound, but it is a large squal and then the sound lowers and makes all kind of devilish racket. Could the stereo jack be wired wrong, does it mater if the two grounds are backwards? the hot side to the jack, is that the middle connector of the stereo jack in the top center or is it somewhere else. I see three lugs. one in the center that is on top, one that is one the side with a square lug, and another with a lug that looks kind of like a arrow. OR--- should i be looking elsewhere for my problem..... OR-- should i just ditch the sheilding project and rewire it like a factory. I am getting really faclemp here and running out of ideas.
thanks,
Jeff
If someone will tell me how to put a pic in the post, i will update the pic to reflect what it looks like right now......
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Post by sumgai on Aug 1, 2006 13:03:25 GMT -5
Jeff, You can insert an image into a post with the image tags. On my display, the icon for that is the fourth one from the left, in the lower row. That's a bit confusing! But I do glean one bit of info...... you say "ring terminal system ground". That's not quite right, in the context of what I've been saying. If you happened to use a ring-shaped terminal for collecting all the grounds in the signal path, that's one thing. But I'm referring to the Ring terminal of a TRS jack, and that's a bird of an entirely different color. Be that as it may, I've taken the liberty of modifying your modified drawing ( ) to illustrate my points: There, does that help clear up the confusion? sumgai
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jhollon
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Post by jhollon on Aug 1, 2006 13:10:15 GMT -5
PERFECT, that is exactly what I was looking for. I will give that a shot. The way i have it now the lead from sleeve is only going to the GND on the unit...... I will let you know how it works out. Thanks again. this will be my 8th time taking it apart, do i get my membership now.....
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Post by UnklMickey on Aug 1, 2006 13:21:45 GMT -5
...this will be my 8th time taking it apart, do i get my membership now..... dude, you had us at "Hi all,..." .:lol:. unk
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jhollon
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Post by jhollon on Aug 1, 2006 13:35:14 GMT -5
at least i feel loved, if only in here.............
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Post by UnklMickey on Aug 1, 2006 13:57:27 GMT -5
...Nice handoff, unk! ... nice run. jhollon, re: embedding images, whether you get a filecabin, photobucket, or other similar account, the process is similar. sumgai's edit of your drawing is here: www.filecabin.com/members_vb/files/59758/nutz/jhollon.jpgsince he wanted it to show up, embedded in his post, the line in his text looks like this: [img src="http://www.filecabin.com/members_vb/files/59758/nutz/jhollon.jpg"] which results in this: if you want to learn how someone else has accomplished those sorts of things, just click on the "quote icon" in the upper right of his post. then you can see the sin tax syntax that was used. unk
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jhollon
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Post by jhollon on Aug 1, 2006 16:19:12 GMT -5
which is the ring, the tip and the sleeve lugs? If i am going after this again, i want to make sure i have it right. again thanks for the help. does it go (looking at the top (backside of stereo plug)) tip, sleeve and then ring? ? Jeff
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Post by UnklMickey on Aug 1, 2006 16:30:30 GMT -5
hi jeff, tip, ring, sleeve are in order.in the case below, from RIGHT to LEFT.1. Sleeve: usually ground 2. Ring: Right-hand channel for stereo signals, negative phase for balanced mono signals, power supply for power-requiring mono signal sources 3. Tip: Left-hand channel for stereo signals, positive phase for balanced mono signals, signal line for unbalanced mono signals 4. Insulating rings en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_plug
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Post by sumgai on Aug 2, 2006 1:18:57 GMT -5
Jeff, Here ya go, I shoulda thought of this earlier, sorry 'bout that. If you strip one or more of the screwholes while pulling out any screws (for the 8th time!), then just dab in some Elmer's wood glue, and break off a toothpick in the hole. Let it set overnight, and you're back in business. ;D HTH sumgai
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jhollon
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Post by jhollon on Aug 2, 2006 9:15:09 GMT -5
PERFECT, that is what i was looking for
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jhollon
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Post by jhollon on Aug 2, 2006 10:54:16 GMT -5
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Post by eljib on Aug 2, 2006 13:39:55 GMT -5
Is this really an "older strat?" You probably don't want to start routing out a real fender. I'd go for the trem cavity if I were you. Always try the least invasive procedure first. It will either fit back there or it wont. If it does, you're ready to go. If not, then think about routing. You could get one of the 9v clips that they use in other applications.
BTW, how long are those batteries supposed to last? I was looking at the same device a while back and I thought they said it would take something like 4000 hours to drain a single battery.
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Post by sumgai on Aug 2, 2006 14:58:05 GMT -5
Jeff, Yes, the spring cavity has been done successfully. I took a google, and found some images that might help. (These are from www.langcaster.com, a New Zealand builder.) The first one is straightforward. (I've loaded it to my site so that I could resize it, and in case it ever disappears from the original site.) Here's an alternate method, if you don't use your trem at all: Most guys who use older circuits (that tend to eat batteries more quickly) end up just leaving the back cover off, and holding the battery in with a strong clip (from RadioShabby, or somesuch). And for those of you who have a hard-tail axe, then this might be more to your liking: Obviously, the plate has to be chromed on all surfaces, or this will look rather unappealing. But they are out there, and I've seen it done - it's not as bad as you might first think. Good luck! sumgai
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jhollon
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Post by jhollon on Aug 2, 2006 16:41:42 GMT -5
the first image is what i had in mind... I will give it a go maybe tonight, been working so i haven't even tried the re-wire yet. Still building up courage before i dive in. I will send some pics if i get it to work.
As for battery life, my neighbor (who just signed on with the Hotels and leaves for LA in a couple of weeks) is the one who has it and he told me that he has had it for around 6 months and hasn't changed the battery yet. Keep in mind, he is a REAL musician that gets paid to perform and plays with it (along with his collection) at gigs almost 4 nights a week locally as well as band practice at his house. He says it is plugged in and played at least 20 hours or more a week. I figure he has used it around 600 or more hours at this point and it is still going strong. I would say that the battery life is pretty damn good. I asked him about the wiring but he is a LP guy through and through and doesn't really get into wiring so he pays a local guitar tech for all that stuff. He thinks i am crazy for having a strat, but he is a flakey musician and that is the way it is. He showed me the inerds of his LP in hopes that it would help, but the extra pot threw me off and the sheilding QTB also threw another kink in the mix.
The strat is a late '70s model USA, but through its life, it has been treated fairly rough and has lived through a house fire when i was younger which damaged the original paint and neck. The latest neck is one from an '80s model from a USA. I have just recently pulled it out of its couffin the last few months and refinished then destressed the black paint to make it look more like what it should look like if the house fire never happened. In short - not really a collectors model and I don't really care, it has sentimental value to me................................
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Post by CheshireCat on Aug 3, 2006 1:27:59 GMT -5
BTW, how long are those batteries supposed to last? I was looking at the same device a while back and I thought they said it would take something like 4000 hours to drain a single battery. The device doesn't drain the battery. Plugging the guitar in does. Within that context, yes, the QDD2 usually has 4K hours of battery life. I typical EMG pickup has 3K. I am a very big proponent of battery boxes, real Fender or not. Gotoh's good. The only time you don't rout for a battery box is when this is a collectible and you dare not even change a pot or the nut, but, there again, if that's the case you wouldn't want to put any stranger electronics in it. As it happens, the Strat you describe has zero resale value, in terms of collectibility, so, I say, go for it. A clean and discrete battery box somewhere in the back of it would not nearly be as much as an eye-sore as the wear and tear it has on it, which, I'm sure, lends a certain character and elan to it (just ask SRV about his #1). Frankly, I just don't know why guitars don't automatically come with routs for battery boxes . . . oh, yeah, that's right, they'd have to spend an extra $0.50 to put one in, and that would cut into the bottom line. ;D Chesh
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Post by sumgai on Aug 3, 2006 14:56:59 GMT -5
Chesh, Not that I want to stir up anything, but you do realize, don't you, that to reach 4000 hours, one would have to leave the unit on for about 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and for 100 weeks. That translates to two years of way-above-average use in order to drain the battery. Seems a bit much to expect, don't you think? I don't know of any battery maker (standard carbon-zinc) claiming this kind of life expectancy, do you?
Just wondering out loud here.
sumgai
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Post by CheshireCat on Aug 3, 2006 18:42:10 GMT -5
Not that I want to stir up anything, but you do realize, don't you, that to reach 4000 hours, one would have to leave the unit on for about 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and for 100 weeks. That translates to two years of way-above-average use in order to drain the battery. Seems a bit much to expect, don't you think? I don't know of any battery maker (standard carbon-zinc) claiming this kind of life expectancy, do you? Okay, I'm not tracking you here. First, your numbers are a canard. That would be an effective way of reckoning how much you are making hourly for whatever salary you're getting, but in practical terms, the window of opportunity to drain the battery is much, much larger than that, and inversely that much more swift. To begin with, keep in mind, it's not the unit being on (i.e., any other position other than bypass) that drains the battery. It's the guitar being plugged in. Mind that a lot of guys like to keep their guitars plugged in to the amp so that they can instantly pick it up and start jamming when inspiration hits. So, given that, that's basically 24/7/365 for those folks. 24hrs x 365days = 8760 hrs in a year. Ergo, we're looking at less than a year for the battery to burn out if we inadvertantly or intentially leave it plugged in. Actually, based on the 4K number, it's 5.5 months. Second, what if we decide not to stop at just the QDD2? More items will increase drain. Third, are you saying that the battery would last for 2 years, per your first set of comments and observations, or are you saying that it wouldn't last 2 years, given your second set? It follows that, assuming you never left your guitar plugged in (best case scenario), that in two years Mr. Murphy will probably attend a concert (as he does all your concerts) and pull the plug on your power from the battery, which it would be good to be ready to change it out in a snap, or, the battery won't last nearly that long, so we don't know when it would go in a true sense, so, once again, ease of changing the battery on the fly would be a good thing. Someone suggested changing it everytime we change strings. Okay . . . I don't want to have to take off parts of the guitar everytime I change strings, or batteries. Ergo, a battery box is desiralbe. Chesh
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Post by sumgai on Aug 4, 2006 0:16:18 GMT -5
Chesh, I was speaking to the number of hours of battery life that you projected in the current scenario. From my experience, unless a circuit is designed with extreme power savings in mind, then current draw is going to eat a battery way before any huge number like 4,000 hours. I have a long dissertation on tap to explain all the why's and wherefore's, complete with website references and 27 pictures with circles and arrows and paragraphs on the back...... But somehow, I don't see that as necessary here. I'll agree that 4000 hours is feasible if a circuit does nothing except amplify. But that's from a good quality alkaline, not from an El Cheapo, right? ;D (BTW, distorting a signal is a massive waste of power - any and all savings go right out the window. Think of the waveform, and how much power is required to drive it there, and it'll start to make sense.) Nope. Even if guitar is plugged in, if the "unit" (the circuit) is not powered up, then it ain't gonna draw any current. Conversely, the circuit could be wired with some other power control besides the output jack. (A manual switch, perhaps.) "Plugging in" is too narrow minded for our discussion here. But I know what you mean, so I'm not really worried. Mr. Murphy is my personal friend. I don't think I could make it through the night if he didn't show up! That's carrying things way too far in the opposite direction! We're on the same wavelength here. In fact, the only reason I don't ( DANGER! Term used ahead that will be twisted by unklmickey!) hog out a hole for the little juicer is that I'm lazy. I figure that there's already a perfectly good cavity just laying there, waiting for me to use it, so I'll just oblige the thing, thank you very much. sumgai
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Post by CheshireCat on Aug 4, 2006 13:26:44 GMT -5
I have a long dissertation on tap to explain all the why's and wherefore's, complete with website references and 27 pictures with circles and arrows and paragraphs on the back...... But somehow, I don't see that as necessary here. I'll agree that 4000 hours is feasible if a circuit does nothing except amplify. But that's from a good quality alkaline, not from an El Cheapo, right? ;D (BTW, distorting a signal is a massive waste of power - any and all savings go right out the window. Think of the waveform, and how much power is required to drive it there, and it'll start to make sense.) Alright, I'm still not tracking you. It still sounds as if you are saying that no battery will last that long anyway, which suggests that Artec and EMG are lying or misrepresenting the projected battery life in the specs for their products, but, at the same time, it would take so long for the battery to wear down that it's not a frequent occurance and we don't have to worry about battery boxes, which, incidentally, you think is a good idea anyway. Basically, the only argument I was making is that battery boxes, and lo-bat indicators for that matter, are a good idea. I really don't care how long the battery lasts as long as it's not some absurd time like a paltry 200 hours (which is how long Duncan Live Wires purported last). If I only need to change the battery out every 6 months, I'm happy. Also, if leaving the guitar plugged doesn't drain the battery, then why does EMG and most other guitar techs I know advocate not doing it? I'm not challenging you, but I would be interested to get the scoop on that. Chesh
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Post by sumgai on Aug 4, 2006 18:07:17 GMT -5
Chesh, Restated, I am saying that 4000 hours is a bit much to expect a battery to perfrom at a reasonable level. Particularly the 9v variety, they have such a low energy density to begin with. I stipulate that it could happen that a circuit willl not place such a drain on the battery that 4000 hours of useful life is possible. But I am also stating that I am doubtful that there are more than a handful of circuits like that out there, whether they be commercially available, or boutique, or whatever. JohnH is about the only one I know, here or anywhere else, who's done something for the guitar that I would readily accept at face value as being capable of delivering such a long battery life. (50 microamps of draw, for one JFET junction, would easily qualify, all other things being equal.) I wouldn't be the one to call anyone a liar, particularly a company as respected as EMG, however....... has anyone here actually tested these claims? (I'm not gonna take a google for this one.) And if so, what battery was used? Specifically, I'd like to know the brand and construction type (alkaline, rechargable, ??). Lacking any first-hand reports, either pro or con, I'd rather not say that the claim is preposterous, only that I find it doubtful in most cases. And yes, I do agree, battery boxes can be nice, especially for those users who shoehorn in a bunch of circuitry. But remember, I'm a member of the Church of Roland, so I already have enough power coming in to float a battleship's worth of chips and discrete transistors. ;D Can't fault you there, nosiree. Anytime a helpful hint is made available (the lo-batt indicator), everyone stands to gain. And 6 months is very realistic, IMNSHO. I say again, you, and those such as EMG, are assuming a narrow set of circumstances, albeit they are the norm. It is usual and customary to use a TRS jack as a power switch (the power is turned on when a plug is inserted), but that is by no means the only way to do it. As you previously noted, some guys like to leave their axe plugged 100% of the time (usually to a small solid-state practice amp), and when they hit the switch, they wanna be able to give voice to their latest muse. Plugging in detracts from that, in their opinion, and I see their point. They have a manual switch located somewhere on the axe that controls the power. There is also another way to actually turn on the main battery power, and that is to allow a trickle current to monitor the pickups. If that monitor senses a current within the coil, then it trips a solid-state relay, and the whole unit is powered up. Snazzy, and not a power hog (There's that unklmickey-approved term again!), so the battery can last for just about as long as if the feature wasn't present. All I'm trying to get across is that there's more than one way to skin a cat here. ;D sumgai
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jhollon
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Post by jhollon on Aug 8, 2006 13:15:57 GMT -5
everything works now. The drawing was the key. Sounds wonderful now. The only thing i see that i am not crazy about now is that when i switch positions on the active circuit, i get a pop out of it. I am not sure what/if anything i can do to remove this, but i am looking for ideas. Battery fits perfect in the back between the springs...... I will up a pic later on when i get to my camera and get some time...... Thanks again for all of the help Jeff
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Post by JohnH on Aug 9, 2006 7:21:40 GMT -5
The best way to estimate battery life is to find out the current consumption, then to know that a 9V battery is rated at about 550mA -hours, to drop to half voltage. So if you have a circuit that can still work at half voltage and takes 1mA, it could run for 550 hours.
Many people feel uncomfortable with batterys in guitars, but I think that if you test and replace them at suitable intervals, then they are more reliable than say, the strings (snapping), a tube (blowing), the guitar cord (being tripped over by an idiot), and less likley to blow up than a cat weeing on the mains transformer. Hence they are a low risk item.
John
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Post by UnklMickey on Aug 9, 2006 10:22:39 GMT -5
. ...and less likley to blow up than a cat weeing on the mains transformer. ... that's just a grotesquely funny image! nice to see you "let your hair down" once in a while.
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