switches for H(bridge splittable)-H(neck)

[ccoleman]

hey guys,

First let me say I really love this board and find it super cool to have a supportive bunch of people offering knowledge and experience in guitar implants and sonic enhancement. LOL

I received a shiny new humbucker to add to my guitar at the neck position... and I am seeking your advice for the best way to wire up a switch to take advantage of all the series/parallel/phase possibilities.

The guitar comes with a splittable humbucker on the bridge, and a volume control only (with the push switch that shorts out the second coil to give me the single coil strat-like sound at the bridge).

I may or may not add a tone controll...

I definitely am ready now to add a switch to give all of the series/parallel/phase combinations possible with these two pickups.

Any suggestions on what kind of switch (poles/throws) (rotary / knife) and how to wire it ??

[vonFrenchie]

Is it a dual humbucker guitar or HSH? One way you could do this would involve adding a splitter to each pickup then a phase switch to the pickup of your choice then a 4 way switch. Also is the bridge humbucker two or four wire?

[CheshireCat]

ccoleman said:

hey guys,

First let me say I really love this board and find it super cool to have a supportive bunch of people offering knowledge and experience in guitar implants and sonic enhancement. LOL

I received a shiny new humbucker to add to my guitar at the neck position... and I am seeking your advice for the best way to wire up a switch to take advantage of all the series/parallel/phase possibilities.

The guitar comes with a splittable humbucker on the bridge, and a volume control only (with the push switch that shorts out the second coil to give me the single coil strat-like sound at the bridge).

I may or may not add a tone controll...

I definitely am ready now to add a switch to give all of the series/parallel/phase combinations possible with these two pickups.

Any suggestions on what kind of switch (poles/throws) (rotary / knife) and how to wire it ??

First best bet: stay away from parallel/split/series for each individual pickup.

Second best bet: Jimmy Page LP Mod. You get splitting for both pickups, and a series/parallel mode switcher, and a phase inverter. And usually in the case of LP's, this can all be done with push/pull pots, with the pots filling their requesite duties as the dedicated tone and vol pots for the pickups, like on a classic LP.

That will give you everything you need.

Now, if you really want to get cute, and know for a fact that you will never use a SxH set-up, but only will ever use HxH or SxS, then you can do a universal splitter to save on the number of switches you need.

Now, important point. If you want to do a series type sound, with the one pickup feeding into the other one, then instead of a shunting splitter, you might want to try a bypassing splitter, where you literally have one of the coils of the humbucker on a bypass. That way, the signal from the first pickup doesn't shunt to ground with the signal from the first coil when you split the last humbucker in the signal chain.

Does that make sense?

Chesh

[ccoleman]

Thanks guys.

It is a H-H setup. I don't know if a middle pickup really gives that much more tonal variation.. people seem to like them the least... what's your opinion... ??

The bridge pickup is 4-wire and is wired to split (on the volume control). The neck pickup is 2-wire so cannot split, but the place I bought it from offered to swap it for a 4-wire one for me, I just might do that if you feel that would be the much more versatile... what do you think, should I swap my neck 2-wire H for a 4-wire H ??

[CheshireCat]

ccoleman said:

Thanks guys.

It is a H-H setup. I don't know if a middle pickup really gives that much more tonal variation.. people seem to like them the least... what's your opinion... ??

The bridge pickup is 4-wire and is wired to split (on the volume control). The neck pickup is 2-wire so cannot split, but the place I bought it from offered to swap it for a 4-wire one for me, I just might do that if you feel that would be the much more versatile... what do you think, should I swap my neck 2-wire H for a 4-wire H ??

Yes, swap them.

That will be much more versatile in a way that you may not appreciate right now. As you experiement it will become more evident.

[vonFrenchie]

I find that some of the single coil combinations offer some hum deterent, for example the neck south and bridge north. But my favorite single coil position for my guitar is the south coil of the neck and the full bridge humbucker. If anything the splitable pickup should be at the neck, splitting the bridge really doesnt have many tonal effects to the untrained ear.

Id say a telecaster style set up. One volume (push/pull) one tone (push pull) and a 4 way switch. This way the tone switch could invert the bridge pickup, the volume could split the neck pickup and the 4 way can do B/B and N series/B and N Parellel/N (I dont know the special parellel series symbols).

But if you want more tonal control you could go with a modified Jimmy Page LP.

I personally would go with the trade in of the bridge pickup for the 4 wire. Then the two pots (in the telecaster style) could split and you could add a DPDT switch (you only need one) to invert the phase. Or you could get fancy and have 2 SPDT center-off switches (coil selection) a Push/pull pot (phase) a regular pot and a 4-way switch. Having two phase switches is a bit overkill.

[UnklMickey]

hi Ccoleman,


my (not always universally held) opinions?

middle pickup -- definitely useful, not just for it's tonality when used alone (smoother than the bridge, a little bit more lively than the neck.),

but more importantly, the gap between middle and neck or middle and bridge is of course, about half the gap between neck and bridge.

why does that matter?

the spacing between pickups has about as much to do with the way they sound when combined as the position, and the difference between pickup types.

downside to having a middle pickup -- for many folks, it interferes with the natural picking position.


swap a 2-wire pickup for a 4-wire?

no contest. take the 4-wire. more good possibilities.


what combos to target in a H-H build?

now we get into the really subjective issue!

lets say you wanted to keep things fairly simple.

and hum-canceling is also one of your priorities.

you might want to skip the trios (3 coil combinations) and singles.

you might even skip OoP completely.

doesn't leave much?

surprisingly, there are several tasty choices left.


1 -- neck in local series

2 -- neck in local parallel

3 -- bridge in local series

4 -- bridge in local parallel

5 -- (neck in local series) in parallel with (bridge in local series)

6 -- (neck in local series) in series with (bridge in local series)

7 -- (neck in local parallel) in parallel with (bridge in local parallel)

8 -- (neck in local parallel) in series with (bridge in local parallel)

9 -- (one coil of neck) in parallel with (the magnetic opposite coil of bridge)

10 - (one coil of neck) in parallel with (the magnetic opposite coil of bridge)


all are hum canceling.

what will they sound like?

it's hard to accurately describe sounds, but i'll try...


1 -- standard HB

2 -- not quite like a single-coil, but closer than #1

3 -- standard HB

4 -- not quite like a single-coil, but closer than #3

5 -- the "gibtone" -- LP with selector in middle position

6 -- dark, powerful version of the gibtone

7 -- very light and smooth, perhaps similar in quality to an acoustic with steel strings.

8 -- pretty similar to #5

9 -- telecaster with selector in middle position

10 - #9 on steroids.


since this took a while to write, my apologies if i repeat anything that was posted while i was writing.


cheers,

unk


EDIT: i almost forgot...

ccoleman said:

...Any suggestions on what kind of switch (poles/throws) (rotary / knife) and how to wire it ??

that's funny right there, i don't care who you are, that's funny!

we often refer to a lever action rotary switch as "the blade" around here, and that could translate into knife.

but the thought of a (real) knife-switch on a guitar, wow that's primitive!

here's one, pre-wired for phase inversion:




thanks for the chuckle!

[ccoleman]

thanks guys!

doh, computer crashed, before i could post my reply !

vonfrenchie, thank for the tips on wiring switches... I am planning on using the guitar for live performance so I would prefer ONE device (or max TWO devices) do all the switching.. be it a mega rotary switch or a blade switch.

unklmickey..thanks for the breakdown inthe different sounds.. now to find an appropriate switch to be able to do 5 or 10 combinations!... I would however like the option of OoP... I heard an mp3 example on the net and it sounded amazingly good, too interesting to not exploit to the maximum !!

[UnklMickey]

ccoleman said:

...doh, computer crashed, before i could post my reply !...

i HATE it, when that happens!




one of my designs has more switches than you are looking for, but still may be useful for you to learn from.

examine the way i implement the phase switch on the BigUGly.

it also exchanges the coils so that it maintains hum-canceling when going to OoP.

this little twist is quite handy.

think about it... when the signal is inherently weaker, because 2 coils are OoP, it becomes even more desirable to have hum-canceling.

because there is a problem with the sub-board (until fixed, can only display 20 threads on the index), you won't be able to find it in the normal way.

just go here:

[glow=blue,4,300]Temporary Gateway
to the
BigUGly[/glow]

[/size] [/url][/blockquote][/blockquote]


also, don't reply on that thread, or it will get pushed to the top and be visible.

then someone else's schematic won't be visible.



unk

vonfrenchie said:

...(I dont know the special parellel series symbols). ...

// is often used for parallel, but i don't recall seeing it that way on GuitarNuts.

on GuitarNuts, parallel is always +

series is represented by * or x or > or ^

[jhng]

If you stick with the pups you've got and just add a five-way blade switch you could do:

Neck (HB); Neck (SC); Neck (HB)+Bridge; Neck(SC)+Bridge; Bridge

And then use your push/pull for a phase switch. That would be a pretty straightforward user-friendly setup.

But you miss out on local parallel options for the Neck pup and on global series options (which are very cool!).

Alternatively:

Use the Five-Way for

Neck; NxB; N+B; NxB (out of phase) [or N+B (oop)]; Bridge

And then add a series/split/parallel toggle for the Neck pup (or Bridge if that is the splittable one).


Hastings

[vonFrenchie]

Like Chesh was saying, Knife switches (the engineering term) are those huge uncovered switches like in Frankenstein. They have huge levers that would connect the poles. Very primitive. Here's another example.

[CheshireCat]

vonfrenchie said:

Like Chesh was saying, Knife switches (the engineering term) are those huge uncovered switches like in Frankenstein. They have huge levers that would connect the poles. Very primitive. Here's another example.

Indeed . . . I did?

[ccoleman]

The pickup is installed (but not wired up) !!!!

With pictures for your amusement.

guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=repair&action=display&thread=1150217211&page=2

Now for the electronics........

1. Which pickup combos are offering the largest variety of tone...?? ( Willing to do Series, parallel, OoP, anything... )

2. What is the largest number of pickup combos to get without duplication, with the least number of switches ??

3. Should I add 1 or 2 tone controls ?? Should I add a 2nd volume control ??

Now going to read the switching designs suggested above...

[ccoleman]

Can we get feedback from jimplaysguitar about his experience playing guitar with unk's Big Ugly

[UnklMickey]

CC,

JimPlaysGuitar stops time by occasionally, but doesn't spend as much time here as he once did.

i've sent him a P.M., pointing to your post so, i hope he might see it and answer you in a reasonable amount of time.


the only feedback i have from him was his intitial impression (he liked it), but not a follow up after he was able to live with it for a while.

a follow-up is much more useful than an initial impression.



multiple tone and volume controls are a very subjective question.

i personally wouldn't bother with multiple tone controls.

if you were going to do the LP maximizer, then 2 volumes would make sense, but for most passive designs, i wouldn't do that either.

so for me, it's just one volume, and just one (or no) tone control.


FWIW,

Frank's "Big Fat Ten" should be very simple to do, and gives 10 hum-cancelling choices.

if you decide on using OoP sounds BigUgly is a better (but more complicated) fit.


unk

[ccoleman]

yes absolutely I must do OoP because of an mp3 that I heard of this sound... it is amazing for ska rockabilly and backing trebly rhythms.

what about the fet buffer on the LP maximizer.. do we have any mp3s of this ?? Because I may be off but to me this seems like it ought to be similar to the sound you get when you plug an acoustic peizo into the huge 1 megaohm input impedance of the onboard battery powered preamp... resulting in plenty of treble (because none of it is lost in transmission) and a very flat accurate sound, with no highcut filtering due to cable capacitance...

Even if I am correct about that sound, all the same I would love to hear these switching circuits on mp3 especially the "frank's big fat ten", the "lp maximizer", the "big ugly", and anything that can fully exploit two HB's.

[CheshireCat]

ccoleman said:

yes absolutely I must do OoP because of an mp3 that I heard of this sound... it is amazing for ska rockabilly and backing trebly rhythms.

what about the fet buffer on the LP maximizer.. do we have any mp3s of this ?? Because I may be off but to me this seems like it ought to be similar to the sound you get when you plug an acoustic peizo into the huge 1 megaohm input impedance of the onboard battery powered preamp... resulting in plenty of treble (because none of it is lost in transmission) and a very flat accurate sound, with no highcut filtering due to cable capacitance...

Even if I am correct about that sound, all the same I would love to hear these switching circuits on mp3 especially the "frank's big fat ten", the "lp maximizer", the "big ugly", and anything that can fully exploit two HB's.

My vote is for the Big Ugly. More later.

[JohnH]

ccoleman said:

what about the fet buffer on the LP maximizer.. do we have any mp3s of this ?? Because I may be off but to me this seems like it ought to be similar to the sound you get when you plug an acoustic peizo into the huge 1 megaohm input impedance of the onboard battery powered preamp... resulting in plenty of treble (because none of it is lost in transmission) and a very flat accurate sound, with no highcut filtering due to cable capacitance...

Just posted an mp3 on the LPmax thread - see what you reckon

cheers

John

[ccoleman]

Thank you John. !! Sounds great... how do you like it in your own playing ??

[ccoleman]

Chesh... do you or anyone else here, have any mp3's of the Big Ugly or Franks Big Fat Ten or .... the 94 sound / jeff's (17+22)(x3) sound modification ??

[JohnH]

Ccoleman

Thanks for you comments on the sounds. The LPmax, as built into an old Cort, is my main ‘go-to’ guitar. It’s the one I most often pick up and play, out of about seven lying around the house. Its also the one I take if I’m going to play with others and I want to concentrate on the music. Its kind of modest looking, just plain black, with nothing to reveal its secrets except one extra toggle. I take it to guitar lessons, and it doesn’t freak out my instructor (until I flick that series switch). On the other hand, if I feel like eliciting ‘what the f@#$!! comments, I take the ToneMnnster2 with its shiny switches. That’s also the one my teenage son prefers.

Back to the LPmax, I find it has a sound for everything I want to play, it can have an acoustic clean sort of quality, but also overdrives well. I haven’t found the local out-of-phase settings to be much use on their own, they are better mixed with a little meat from an in-phase pick up. The single coil sound is really nice, but not the same as a real SC on a Strat. I think the tremolo springs and the pickups mounted on the guard rather than direct to wood makes a difference, in addition to the pup characteristics.

One key aspect that I think is very important is playability. It should be easy to set the switches and remember what they do, and also to make key changes on the fly. The two rotary switches are best regarded as presets, and I try to arrange the local options from dark to bright, with all the options on one knob per pup. The standard 3-way toggle is retained, and provides the easiest way to flick quickly from say, a neck single for rhythm to bridge HB lead. The series/parallel switch is also set up for quick operation, providing a blast to maximum power, over-riding the 3-way.

The use of a 3-way toggle together with out-of-phase and series/parallel dates from the Jimmy Page mods to LPs, but those have major issues with the interaction and consistency of switches and controls, particularly in series mode. We can do better and this is better.

If you are choosing a switching system for a 2HB set up, I would expect that most designs will sound much the same for a given combo type and pups, with the exception of the effect of the buffer, which could be added to any design, or not. So the choice should come down to the combos you want and how to control them with the switches.

John

[ccoleman]

which do you prefer... serial or parallel or both ??

EDIT:

The use of a 3-way toggle together with out-of-phase and series/parallel dates from the Jimmy Page mods to LPs, but those have major issues with the interaction and consistency of switches and controls, particularly in series mode. We can do better and this is better.

Are you saying that using switches in serial mode, when they get intermittent, would cause the pickup sound to drop out completely because ALL wiring links must be solid, and even if one goes bad for a second, you lose the entire signal ??

[JohnH]

S and P are both useful, but I find I'm using serial combos or single coils or single hb's mostly.

What you say about intermittent switches is true, but I was actually refering to design quirks with the traditional JP mod. The volumes do not work independently in series mode, and series mode does not work properly at all unless the 3-way switch is in a certain position. Inherent design issues, rather than outcomes of failing switches

John

[CheshireCat]

johnh said:

S and P are both useful, but I find I'm using serial combos or single coils or single hb's mostly.

What you say about intermittent switches is true, but I was actually refering to design quirks with the traditional JP mod. The volumes do not work independently in series mode, and series mode does not work properly at all unless the 3-way switch is in a certain position. Inherent design issues, rather than outcomes of failing switches

John

Master volume for the lot, and a momentary push-button switch (a la Buckethead) for the Randy Rhoad flutters.

[vonFrenchie]

How does Buckethead have his push switch wired (if you know) Every time I've seen him (on his LP and V) he has three pots and a 3-way toggle. I've never seen him touch the pots or the toggle.

[CheshireCat]

vonfrenchie said:

How does Buckethead have his push switch wired (if you know) Every time I've seen him (on his LP and V) he has three pots and a 3-way toggle. I've never seen him touch the pots or the toggle.

Right, and he wouldn't touch them. He's using a little push-botton momentary switch. Wire it like a killswitch.

[ccoleman]

I'm wrestling with how to get the Series/Parallel/OOP combos, using just one mutliposition switch (the superswitch), and as few other toggle switches as possible... for fast switching during live performance..

It's a giant catch 22.

There are some that are must have for sure, however there are few remaining spots and I dont know for sure which combos I will keep, because I havent been able to hear them and then decide.... it would be so helpful to have mp3's demonstrating what is to be expected for every usual combination of S/P/OOP..

So far I want these as a basic set:
1) bridge
2) bridge + neck (parallel)
3) bridge - neck (parallel OOP)
4) bridge * neck (series)
5) bridge * neck (series OOP)
6) neck

Optional:
7) coils of split bridge HB series and OOP
8) coils of split bridge HB parallel and OOP.

However there are only 5 positions on the super switch...

What would you do ?!?!?!

[UnklMickey]

ccoleman said:

...What would you do ?!?!?!

remember, you didn't ask me what CC should do!

i would drop the #3 selection [bridge - neck] (parallel OOP) completely.

that would leave:

1) bridge
2) bridge + neck (parallel)
3) bridge * neck (series)
4) bridge * neck (series OOP)
5) neck

the 5-way would be responsible for that basic set.

then add a DPDT (either mini-toggle or push-pull) to the configuration of the Bridge HB from the normal series connection to a parallel connection.

4 more sounds (in positions 1-4, position 5 will be the same).


that's what I would do.

unk

[ccoleman]

thanks unk... now let me ask u...

WHY would u do that (drop the bridge - neck parallel OOP)

does it resemble one of the others so much that u can barely tell the difference ?!

it's not the "brian may" famous sound ?!

[UnklMickey]

ccoleman said:

...does it resemble one of the others so much that u can barely tell the difference ?!....

not at all.

it's weak, thin, and most importantly less desirable IMHO than any of the other basic 5, i chose.

since you only have 5 basic selections, something had to be forfeited.

the #1, #2, and #5 from my choices are almost a given, in any build.

#3 is a strong dark tone. IMHO the 4th most important.

i prefer series OoP over parallel OoP. so that give us #4. our 5th choice.

some will agree with this assessment, others will differ.


you can't have everything........

well of course you can, but not if you want to keep it simple.

and i do think keeping it simple, is a GOOD thing!



unk