SSS+Series/Parallel+individual Phase = plausible?

[the_uprising]

So this will be my first question of many i'm sure... While i am sure that it is entirely possible, i am struggling to find the solution to my question... and my question goes as follows:

Can i have 3 independent phase/pickup selectors plus a series/ parallel switch?

I have searched high and low through the internet and the public library as of recently and have found as much information as i can. So now i come to you with my ideas and even delusions of grandeur. So far the internet (guitarnuts1 & 2, and Wolf's 1728.com) have been the most helpful, but now i have come to give you my most elementary thinking of how to construct the start of this project. This is how i have almost come to see how to do this: A+B=C. Right? It works when your working with squares...



While i am 97% sure that in this case it will not work like that, perhaps there are some of you that could help me out on this. I am curious to know everything that i can and would like to understand how guitar electronics work. What would be the problems with having a setup like this? Would there be a way to make it better? Would Wolf's Ultra Strat (www.1728.com/guitar2.htm) be the best possible configuration for having Series/Parallel and Phasing? If there is anything that anyone has to offer by way of advise as i start getting into this, i would gladly take anything i can get... And please keep in mind that i am a visual learner, and a struggling one at that. And while i am trying to become more adept at looking at schematics, pictorials are still working best for me at the moment. Thanks all

[ccoleman]

I am right in the middle of soldering up the wiring connections on my 2 HB setup ( as recommended by johnh, unk and many other guys...).. and I looked at the page you referred to, Wolf's Ultra Strat page www.1728.com/guitar2.htm , and at one point Wolf said that -N*B (Series out of phase )sounds the best of all the out of phase combinations.. if you have an MP3 of series OOP and if possible an MP3 of parallel OOP that you can post, that would be awesome, because I need to decide which one to do. Thanks..

[ChrisK]

There are many ways of getting close to this. Some get real close.

The issue becomes, in the simple schemes, one of series or parallel bias/dominance. I prefer to take the position that any series mode on ONE pickup requires at least ONE other pickup to also be in series, or TWO other pickups to be in parallel and driven by the series selected ONE.

If one has selected Bs, Mp, Ns; one should realize (B*N)+M. This has .67 (2/3) times the inductance of a single pickup.

If one switches to Bs, Mp, Np; one should realize B*(N+M). This has 1.5 (3/2) times the inductance of a single pickup.

While the same pickups are in use, the tonal response is quite different

Note that switching the neck pickup in this example also requires that the middle pickup change its structural relationship. In the first combo the middle is a separate parallel to the series structure. In the second, it moves to being in parallel to the neck pickup.

The simple schemes are simple, but they require the operator (they ain't just a musician anymore) to remember the odd relationships that occur due to the incomplete logic applied.


Here's one that I did that is fairly simple. Note a "Drive" switch for structural variance.

guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=1138841439


Here's one that does not do nearly all of the possible variants, but is very nice in tonal variation (with somewhat disparate pickup types), especially with the phase switching. Also, your Strat still looks stock.

guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=1153172741


Here's a more complicated one that does ALL but M*(B+N), inclusive of all possible phase variants.

guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=1153505234

Note that this one can also be realized with 3 of the 8P5T MegaSwitches (which are not currently imported).

[JohnH]

Many have tried this, and here is my take on it, the ToneMonster2, which is on our schematics board
:
guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=1130243150

I can promise that this one works well, since it has been built several times. There are no unexpected dead spots or quirky settings, you just switch pups on or off, and have an overall series or parallel switch. If you only select one pup, the S/P switch can be in either position. It also has a blender control.

I built it with just one phase switch, on the neck. This brings forth the best out-of-phase combo which is +B-N. This plus +M-N and +B+M-N which are also available, are plenty IMO, but a further phase switch could be added to M or B to give all the other phased combos.

ccoleman - the series out-of-phase combos are more useful than the parallel ones, they have more volume and weight. When I did sound clips for the TM2 (see post above), the last combo of the first clip is bridge and neck, in series out-of-phase

BTW, what this design does not do is combos which are a mixture of series and parallel - which is an interesting puzzle that some of us have tried, but to cover the full range is way more complicated and arguably not worth it on a practical guitar. (I use the word arguably, after careful thought, because one thing I am quite certain of that it is definitely possible to argue about it!)

cheers

John

[ccoleman]

johnh said:

This brings forth the best out-of-phase combo which is +B-N.

ccoleman - the series out-of-phase combos are more useful than the parallel ones, they have more volume and weight. When I did sound clips for the TM2 (see post above), the last combo of the first clip is bridge and neck, in series out-of-phase

JohnH, When you say "+B-N" do you really mean "+B * -N" (series) or was it actually +B-N (the parallel out of phase) ?! I'm going nuts with all these awesome possibilities !!

[JohnH]

yes, I meant series
cheers

J

[sumgai]

uppie,

......
A+B=C ..... It works when your working with squares...

WHHAAATTTT? Howzat again?

A² + B² = C² does not break down to A + B = C, I assure you.



But we got your point, just joshin' ya here. ;D

See other posts in both this thread and nearly every other thread on GN2 for a breakdown on how to denote the ganging of pickups in parallel and/or series.

Oh, before I forget it (again), to these here forums!


sumgai

[ChrisK]

BTW, what this design does not do is combos which are a mixture of series and parallel - which is an interesting puzzle that some of us have tried, but to cover the full range is way more complicated

I have a minor quibble with your statement.


guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=1153505234

Except for M*(B+N) as stated, this design does indeed do ALL of the parallel/series combinations as well as ALL other possible combinations (including all phase relationships). The only combination that it does not do BY DESIGN is M*(B+N). There is a switch or knob for each pickup, which make the required structural changes without the "operator" having to mind the parallel (or seriousness) of the structure.

and arguably not worth it on a practical guitar.

Who knows. I want them!

(I use the word arguably, after careful thought, because one thing I am quite certain of that it is definitely possible to argue about it!)

Hence my minor quibble. ;D

[sumgai]

uppie,

So this will be my first question of many i'm sure...

Bring 'em on! ;D

While i am sure that it is entirely possible, i am struggling to find the solution to my question... and my question goes as follows:

Can i have 3 independent phase/pickup selectors plus a series/ parallel switch?

While you're "entirely sure", the responses above indicate that this is much harder to achieve than one might think. I would like to say "sure, no sweat, G.I.!", but I'd have to qualify that. Do you have any physical requirements about those switches? And which combo's are you seeking as most desirable? (Meaning, which ones are you willing to sacrifice, when push comes to shove?)

I'll not quote your diagrams here, but essentially, you left out the series shunt switches in "C", thus rendering the bridge and neck pickups usable only if they are both on. Being unable to select Bridge alone or Neck alone is just a tad too limiting for most folks, I'm sure you'll agree. Back to the drawing board for you, my fine feathered friend!

I have searched high and low through the internet and the public library as of recently and have found as much information as i can.

Good for you! You can never do too much research, or learn more than necessary to get the job done! ;D

While we're at it, I need to remind you that there is a controversy going on right now, on this forum, regarding shunting coils (pickup coils) in order to achieve combo's in series. The current thinking seems to be, avoid doing this wherever possible, and I tend to agree with that mindset. Just something to think about as you pencil in your next brainchild! ;D

HTH


sumgai

[JohnH]

chrisk said:

BTW, what this design does not do is combos which are a mixture of series and parallel - which is an interesting puzzle that some of us have tried, but to cover the full range is way more complicated

I have a minor quibble with your statement.

Chris, I was only referring to the design which I posted. I'm sure yours does all you have stated!

John

[the_uprising]

Forgive me for not putting all that i would like to put in this, in. Just drove back from a Isis/Tool show in Marryiesville, Ca. For anyone intrested, it was OK. They (Tool) mostly played thier singles, and Isis had a short set... but the song that Isis played last, was AWSOME! But this is nither here nore there. Back to the theorys i conjure up...

So while we speak of bias and dominance... after listening to those 2 sound clips, i think that i now come to the understanding that i would much rathar prefer the series over the parallel. Perhaps even to forget about parallel for now as to not complicate the prosess, as i have more ideas that i am going to try to incorperate into this project. I have already redone a friends guitar giving him the 3 phase mini-switches as seen in the original figure A, and am assuming it is wired in series judgeing by the sound clip. I have gone over most of the posts already in the Electronics & Wiring plus all the Schematics, and while i believe (still hard to piece thgether the schematics for now) the Mike Richardson wiring with phase looks good, and the 3 Pickup RotoCaster is far to much for a 1st real project, the ToneMonster2 would be a good place to start with.

Thanks alot JohnH, ChrisK,and sumgai for helping me get this started out right. More later though, i am growing more late with every passing sentence. And 4 hours sleep is not comprable to 25+ of being awake so far today... I'll try and sort all this information again later and come up with more things we can all banter on about, while at the same time giving me some good advise and wisdom.

[ChrisK]

JohnH,

Don't worry, one can't actually use the word quibble in a sentence and still be all that serious! ;D


In essence, I suspect that I need to emphasize my inferred point about complicated wiring schemes. Simple schemes are, well simple, and often just pop into one's head. I spent a number of hours (dozens) in trying to force a "pop" of insight in how to do a (nearly) complete SSS with all possible combo's and phase. There was a lot of popping, primarily in the form of (eventual) backfires. I have about 100 CAD drawings of these dead ends.

I realized that I was going about this inside-out. I developed a schema that had a wiring path for all three pickups, in all 27 possible modes (series, off, parallel)^3.

This was reduced to the first drawing in this post:
guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=1153505234

I didn't have to include any phase consideration since I could see that it could be added to each pickup (neck and bridge) with just one additional pole on the neck and bridge switch, and the expansion to 5 throws, again for each switch. I didn't include M*(B+N) since I could see that it added yet another level of inheritance/complexity and didn't consider it especialy needed. Pre-optimization is.

Once the signal paths were known for each of the 27 possible combo's, I could most easily see all possible optimizations. I couldn't "mentally see" such without this step, I guess (know) my brain was full and overflowed.

The second drawing is a wiring schematic in a representational form. Reducing (?expanding) this to a wiring diagram will be tedious in an effort to minimize wire runs. Once I know how to realize something, I get bored and find it difficult to continue with the translation. In this circuit's case, I still find it intriguing and, since I already have the switches (free engineering samples rule), I might as well go ahead and implement it.

However, that would be too simple, so it will exist in a form with additional "stuff".


Again, my point is that it is much more expedient to develop a schema for all possible connections needed (regardless of the often huge number of switches needed on paper) and reduce the obvious redundancies rather than to incrementally ponder newly discovered "disturbing" rings on the onion.


Architect down-wards, implement up-wards!

Don't try to "think up" complicated schemes, but endeavor to "see" the whole landscape desired and "think down" thru optimization and reduction.

[CheshireCat]

theuprising said:

Can i have 3 independent phase/pickup selectors plus a series/parallel switch?

Done.

If you don't mind a five way selector, this will do the trick:



Now, that is a work in progress, and I have designs that amalgamate the two splitters together. For your app, you'd want to just do away with those.

Basically, it uses a SuperSwitch bladeswitch with a Mode Switcher. All the combos are available in terms of series vs. parallel, short of ALL3+, and in the first mode, it's the standard strat options.

Now, as far as phasing goes, if you'll notice, it has one universal Phase Inverter, that inverts for all positions, so either you have phase inversion on or off, and there's no need to have to flip several switches to get one particular sound.

So, if you have an SSS setup, then that's a total of three intuitive switches, all based on attributes rather than patching. If you have an HSH setup, then you add the global splitter, which will give you SSS, SSH, and HSH.

Now, if you are totally set on three independent on/offs, then I believe there was an excellent Brian May mode, but I lost the link. I'll see if I can find it . . .

[Found it!!]

Okay, this was a mod sent into to a Deaf Eddie type who has a some really coolio products and mod schematics. Usually his stuff is CAD'd out, but this was done by hand by the ingenious kid who came up with it, and was so clean that the website owner decided to keep it as is. I think you can probably work everything out from the pic.



Now, if you don't want to have 7 switches, but would rather amalgamate the phase inverters and the selectors into one switch, say a DP3T on-on-on, or something like that, then let's see what Seymour has to offer . . .

Nope . . . nada.

But, an idea is developing . . . hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm . . .

Okay, well, basically the first diagram will give you the easiest mod in terms of simplicity of operation, but if you are set on the independent on/off selectors, then the second diagram solves for the series/parallel switch. The only thing you need to solve for now is the phase inverting on/off selector.

Chesh

[ChrisK]

In the standard Brian May scheme, a pickup is shorted when off. A separate switch was used for phase reversal.

WD has a "Kent Armstrong Brian May switch that is a 12 terminal combination of a DPDT ON-ON-ON (SP3T) 6 terminal and a DPDT center off 6 terminal switch.

While this is a useful switch ($20), it is completely unnecessary for this circuit.


One DPDT ON-ON-ON (SP3T) 6 terminal switch alone for each pickup micro-structure can be used for this scheme WITHOUT SHORTING THE COIL. (Q.E.D.)

These micro-structures (the same for each pickup) will work with the 6PDT switch in the alluded Deaf Eddie circuit. However, a 6PDT DOES NOT EXIST in toggle form. If one looks at the end poles, one can plainly see that they select the same connection in either position and a 4PDT will suffice. The new end pickup connections for the eliminated poles are obvious.

[CheshireCat]

chrisk said:

However, a 6PDT DOES NOT EXIST in toggle form. If one looks at the end poles, one can plainly see that they select the same connection in either position and a 4PDT will suffice. The new end pickup connections for the eliminated poles are obvious.

Well, this might work, specifically referring to the 6 pole option, but otherwise you're suggesting cutting off of the ends of the 6PDT, making it a 4PDT, using perhaps the N pickup leads as a starting point, and then routing it series or parallel after that using the 4PDT?

[ChrisK]

My favorites (see the RotoCaster)



Unfortunately,

the ingenious kid who came up with it

didn't see that any pickup in the off position shorts out the whole structure when in parallel.

One DPDT ON-ON-ON (SP3T) 6 terminal switch alone for each pickup micro-structure can be used for this scheme WITHOUT SHORTING THE COIL. (Q.E.D.)

While this switch can be used in the original Brian May scheme, additional poles are needed for use in a parallel/series selectable structure.

[ChrisK]

I KNEW that I'd seen that

the ingenious kid who came up with it

diagram before.

Check it out.

p102.ezboard.com/funofficialwarmothfrm19

Chesh, so who are you over there (unofficially)? I'm fairly transparent.

[CheshireCat]

chrisk said:

Chesh, so who are you over there (unofficially)? I'm fairly transparent.

I'm not. Never been there before. I got that schematic from another website. But that looks interesting. So, there's a potential short?

[UnklMickey]

cheshirecat said:

... So, there's a potential short?

yes, Chesh, there is a short.

this is a common pitfall with series / parallel arrangements for multiple pickups.

if you look carefully, the off position of the pickup switches, puts a shunt in place of the pickup, when the pickup is turned off.

that is a good thing in series mode.

it maintains continuity in the string.

in parallel mode....................not-so-good.

there is exactly ONE combination of on/off switches, in the parallel mode that DOES work.

that being: all pickups on.

you still have variations of phase in the parallel mode, but you must have all pickups on, or you get no sound.


these kinds of designs look good at first,

but, unless careful thought is given to the "housekeeping tasks", they have "bugs".



unk

[ChrisK]

Or just new pesky layers to the onion.

[CheshireCat]

UUSS, anyone?