otaku
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Post by otaku on Sept 21, 2006 14:54:22 GMT -5
Hi there guys!! I need a bit of help here. Is it possible to get the following combinations with 3 dimarzio humbucker pickups??
Position -- Neck -- Middle -- Bridge ----1---------OO-------XX---------XX ----2---------XO-------OX---------XX ----3---------XX-------OO---------XX ----4---------XX-------XO---------OX ----5---------XX-------XX---------OO O = active coil X = not active coil
Important: note that the middle pickup in position 2 and 4 is split, but with a different active coil in each position facing the appropiate coil from the bridge and neck pickup (which are also split).
Does anyone has a schematic of how the connections would have to be made for a combination to behave like noted above?
Thanx in advance!!!
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 21, 2006 16:10:45 GMT -5
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 21, 2006 16:21:59 GMT -5
hello Otaku-san,
welcome to Guitarnuts2.
i don't think we'll find anything "off the shelf".
most configurations are HH, HS, SS, SSS, HSS, or HSH.
there is a simple HHH configuration. (3 HB Les Paul).
but that only uses full HBs, without splits.
ChrisK has a 3HB scheme, but that only uses 2 coils at at time, and has a 12 position rotary switch.
what you want, looks pretty tough to do with just 4 poles, like a superswitch. (i assume you wanted a lever. a 5-position rotary, with more poles would be easier.)
we will have to think about this for a while, and toss some ideas back and forth between members.
.................................................
just to clarify what you want:
you will have series (locally) connected HBs, in pairs that are connected in parallel (globally).
in position 1 -- the 2 coils of the middle HB are in series, the 2 coils of the bridge HB are in series, then those 2 pickups are in parallel.
in position 2 -- the active coils of the neck and middle are in series, and that "pickup" is in parallel with the bridge pickup?
or did you mean:
in position 2 -- the active coils of the neck and middle are in parallel, with each other and the bridge pickup? (this might be easier)
unk
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otaku
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Post by otaku on Sept 21, 2006 16:29:04 GMT -5
What I want is basically a strat configuration but with humbuckers except single coils. It should work like this: Position 1: neck humbucker full Position 2: neck humbucker split + middle humbucker split (both nearest coils active) Position 3: middle humbucker full Position 4: bridge humbucker split + middle humbucker split (both nearest coils active) Position 5: bridge humbucker full I have found the following schematic which I think it´s almost what I want, but I don´t quite understand its behaviour so if someone here with experience can explain it or clarify it, it will be great for me. Here it is:
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 21, 2006 16:39:05 GMT -5
hi Otaku,
that's a great start.
i was being totally stupid about this!
i was reading your logic map backward.
you're only looking for 2 coils at a time.
what you want sounds very do-able.
i'll look at the drawing you posted, and see what it does.
BTW, where did the drawing originally come from?
unk
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otaku
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Post by otaku on Sept 21, 2006 16:42:01 GMT -5
The drawing was sent from dimarzio techs to a friend of mine who wanted to make something similar to what I´m doing, and I think this is exactly what I want, but I don´t understand how the middle pickup works in this schematic (well, really I don´t know how anything works for sure, but I can figure it out and understand most of it, except the middle pickup part).
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 21, 2006 16:45:28 GMT -5
okay, i'll look this over during dinner, and give you more info, in about an hour or two.
cheers,
unk
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otaku
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Post by otaku on Sept 21, 2006 16:50:44 GMT -5
That´s ok, i´m in no hurry. Been planning this guitar for months and I want to do it exactly the way I want, with no rush. I have all the time in the world to finish it.
PS: I still have to shield it though
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 21, 2006 18:18:46 GMT -5
Ahem'ski lads.
If'n ya looks at the logic map fer this (on the ding-dang drawing), guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=1155775716one will observe that a four pole switch is used. If just the first 5 entries are desired, a 4 pole 5 way lever will do exactly what is asked for. If'n the series/single coil/parallell function isn't desired, jumping can replace it, or two of the modes can be realized with a push pull pot. Raz-a-fraz-gaza-dazd-blaza......
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 21, 2006 20:35:44 GMT -5
Ahem'ski yourself Chris, i already admitted my bone-head mistake. no need to rub it in. i feel stupid enough already. and to turn my own smilie against me!.........HOW MEAN! ...i was being totally stupid about this!
i was reading your logic map backward.
you're only looking for 2 coils at a time.
what you want sounds very do-able.... i'll be back in a few minutes with the map of the diMarzio circuit............and more. unk
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 21, 2006 21:59:34 GMT -5
hi Otaka, it took longer than i thought............................but i did more than i planned. so much so, you might have to put me on the payroll. first, the diMarzio circuit: i drew 5 maps of how the pickups are stacked, and connected in each switch position. the letters indicate what each of the 4 poles of the switch do, in that switch position. for instance in position 1, only the lower right pole (d) connects the red wire of the Bridge to hot. the ground buss has a connection to each pickup, not connected through the switch. i ALSO included a little indicator under each map, showing the active coils, in orange. this doesn't do exactly what you are looking for, but it's close, if the bridge pickup is turned with the screws facing the bridge. (if it has screws -- anyway, the south coil) i don't like shunting coils the way they do, in positions 2 and 4, unless absolutely necessary. and i don't to leave unused coils hanging from hot (they didn't do that. -- good!) i also prefer to make all the combinations hum-canceling. they did that here. again.....good! this is a special sort of configuration. it has the HBs being used in series, but when coils of separate pickups are used together, they are connected in parallel. i like the concept, if you are keeping the switching minimal. you get the "Strat quack" in 2 and 4, and Fat HBs in 1,2, and 3. Chris mentioned learning from his RotoBucker, and including either a series/parallel switch, or a series/single/parallel switch. that certainly adds more choices, if you are willing to add another switch. i do recommend that._________________________________________________________________________________________ however, if you are trying to keep things very spartan, this is how i would take the circuit you got from diMarzio, and twist things around to get: all the coils in exactly the right location, with no shorting, no hanging, and all hum-canceling.this is similar to some of the tricks i used in "the BigUGly". if you decide you want to do this, let me know, and i'll do a full drawing later. [ EDIT: ]
i forgot to mention that you could also consider trading in one of the combos (maybe 1 or 3 ? )
for the full Neck HB in parallel with the full Bridge HB.
i like to call that the 'gibtone', as in, Les Paul middle position. that would be very easy to do, and IMHO a good choice.
[ /EDIT: ] a word of caution:these color codes are for diMarzio pickups ONLY.cheers, unk
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otaku
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Post by otaku on Sept 22, 2006 8:01:04 GMT -5
Wow unk, I don´t know where to start so I´ll just say THANX A LOT!!! So let´s go by parts (as jack the ripper says) My theory about the original circuit being close to what I wanted was right, and I also was right about it not doing exactly what I wanted because of the middle pickup. Now you solved it in your second circuit, that´s exactly what I want!! You mentioned another switch for series/parallel switch, or series/single/parallel and I´m sure that would add a lot of versatility and possible combinations, but it also would complicate things and I doubt I would ever use them all. I have some questions though: In the original circuit, the bridge pickup was turned with the screws facing the bridge (well, mines are Dimarzio Evolutions so they don´t have screws ) and in your circuit it is not. Did you forget to turn it on your second drawing or you "fixed" the circuit so it is not turned? I have no problem in turning it. I can´t say which coil is which just by looking at the pickup, but I know because of the cable exit position so that would not be a problem. Now I´m gonna study your circuit cause it´s really easy to understand it and see how the current flows in it, but I find difficult to translate those changes to the original circuit drawing or to directly build it up from your circuit (I´m a newby remember!!). Just FYI, the pickups I´m using are 2 evolutions (bridge f-spaced and neck version) and a Cuiser in the middle (mini hb). The guitar is an "old" stagemaster with an original HSH configuration.
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 22, 2006 11:47:20 GMT -5
i only guessed that diMarzio intended for the bridge pickup to have the south coil of the bridge toward the tail, getting as close as they could to inner coils.
because of the polarity/humbucking issues, you can't do inner coils on both B+M and M+N in their scheme.
the other possibility would have been, they intended to do "inner coils" on M+N and "outer coils" on B+M
you know, just as i wrote this, i realize, they could have just shunted the MiddleS and BridgeN coils in position 4.
and have the screws on all pickups toward the frets.
but that's really not my style because it shunts coils AND has the unused coils connected between hot and the active coils.
because of my connection scheme, i am using the coils they could have, without without any of the "evils".
so, yes! on my design, the south on all 3 pickups should be toward the frets.
if you want to post a drawing of the switch and pots with no wires that would probably work well.
that way you will have the pieces in the drawing in locations and orientation that make the most sense to you.
then put an arrow on the drawing that indicates either "toward bridge" or "toward frets"
i'll take that drawing and add all the wiring.
does that sound like a plan.
unk
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otaku
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Post by otaku on Sept 22, 2006 12:51:07 GMT -5
I just used my super-near-to-non-existant graphics editing skills and managed to "unwire" all the elements in the schematic I posted before so you can take them and use them as templates to create your own. Pot: Output jack: Superswitch: Will those work for you?
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 22, 2006 13:23:05 GMT -5
well, that's half of what i was suggesting.
i could arrange those pieces into a drawing.
but i think it would be even better, if you arrange them in the same locations and orientations as they would be on the back of your pickguard.
obviously they don't have to be to scale.
and the output jack is the least important.
if the pots and switch are rotated, and positioned similar to the way they will sit on the pickguard, the wiring i draw will be very easy for you to follow when you wire it up.
unk
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otaku
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Post by otaku on Sept 22, 2006 14:04:21 GMT -5
Will this do the trick? It´s the pickguard view from the back.
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 22, 2006 14:35:36 GMT -5
i think that'll be just fine.
i'll make a copy of it, and "wire" it for you after the weekend.
unk
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otaku
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Post by otaku on Sept 22, 2006 14:39:15 GMT -5
That will be great, thanx!
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 25, 2006 10:06:07 GMT -5
hi Otaku, below are 3 drawings. the FIRST ONE is the wiring that matches up with our discussion. the second is modified to put the "Gibtone" (N+B humbuckers) in position 3 rather than the middle pickup. the third puts the "Gibtone" in position 1 rather than the neck HB alone. as you can see, if you want to change from version-1 to version-3, simply add 2 wires on the switch.
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otaku
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Post by otaku on Sept 25, 2006 11:24:16 GMT -5
Thanx Unk, really amazing job. Studying those diagrams I start to realize how that switch and things work, so maybe I can start to make my own modifications Some questions that I have from my thinking over the weekend. In my original idea, the 2 split positions (2 and 4) were supposed to combine the closer coils from the 2 active pickups. Now, with just turning the pickups, I can "convert" that to the the opposite. Or turning just one pickup I can have the "average". Do you think doing this would change the sound a lot? A little? Nothing? In case that the sound is changed, how would it change? Tone? Finally, that "gibtone" can also be done with the bridge + neck pickups in single coil mode. Will that give me a "teletone"?
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 25, 2006 13:31:13 GMT -5
designing your own wiring schemes should be a goal. you can design them on paper, then submit them to the forum. we can warn you of any mistakes, before you wire them. even the experienced gurus make mistakes. JohnH has caught numerous mistakes i have made. and i think i caught the one mistake he made. lol flipping 2 pickups, will change their inners to outers, but it will also "average" the 3rd pickup and either of the flipped ones. it makes more sense to alter the wiring as shown in the upper left and upper right of the drawing below. splitting the Neck and Bridge HBs to get the "Teletone" would work. but, because the way i stacked the pickups, was designed to work best with the 5 sounds you asked for, it isn't perfect. you could use 2 north coils, or 2 south coils and forfeit the hum-canceling. (i wouldn't) to get hum-canceling, you need 1 north and 1 south. or you could leave a coil hanging from hot (teletone1). or shunt a coil (teletone2). neither one is fatal, ..........just not the way i design things.
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otaku
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Post by otaku on Sept 25, 2006 16:47:58 GMT -5
Ok Unk, I don´t have words to thank you for your work... if you sometime happen to come to Argentina, I´ll buy you a beer I´m gonna go with my original idea first. Then after I see how that works and sounds, maybe i´ll implement the gibtone in the 2nd or 4th position; but first things first. When I finally build this thing up (still need the pickguard, cause it´s a weird one and i have to get someone do it for me) I´ll post comments about it and maybe some sound clips.
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 25, 2006 16:54:44 GMT -5
sound clips would be very cool. but just a few words about it, after it's built would be okay enough.
good luck on the build.
and stay in touch on other non-related matters, during the process.
unk
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otaku
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Post by otaku on May 21, 2007 5:07:39 GMT -5
Hi there Unk!! Sorry to bump this pretty old thread, but believe it or not, a lot of things happened (I had a child, moved to another city, got my degree, etc) that stopped me from completing my guitar, but after all I got myself some time last weekend and managed to "finish" it. You can see some pictures in an argentine forum of the shielding process clicking in this link: www.guitarraonline.com.ar/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=10583Then, you can see my beloved brand new guitar with everything in place clicking in this link: www.guitarraonline.com.ar/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=840&start=358Isn't it a beauty? Now to the point. There seems to be something fishy about the wiring you gave me. I need some more testing, but it seems that positions 2 and 4 are not working quite right, specially position 4 (the one with the split bridge + split middle) which sounds really really weak and with very low output compared with the rest. Also, I'm not too sure about the bridge pickup single setting, as it seems that the active coil is the one away from the middle, not the one closest. Actually, looking closer at your diagram, it seems that it is almost identical to the original one that I posted before, that u spotted that had to have the pickup backwards to work properly. It would be great if you could re-check the schematic, as I have checked about 1.000 times already and my guitar is wired exactly as you told me to. Well, thanx in advance!! Cheers from Argentina!
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Post by UnklMickey on May 21, 2007 8:14:51 GMT -5
No need to apologize about bumping an old thread. Congrats on the degree. You had a child? I didn't know you were female. If the sound is weak in the 2 and 4 postions, that might mean that middle pickup is out of phase with the others. The easiest way to determine if this is true, would be to swap the white and black wires for the middle pickup only. If it gets stronger, that problem is solved. The other possibility would be that middle pickup isn't wound very "hot" and is loading things down too much when a single coil from it, and a single coil from one of the others is combined in parallel. If that's the reason, when you switch the black and white wires, things will sound even weaker. We might need to rethink this, and perhaps come up with a plan to put the coils in series, when in the 2 and 4 positions. That's not the way things are on a Strat, but with the single-sized HB for the middle, this might be a better choice. You should expect the sound to be a little bit weaker in the 2 and 4 postions. It's that way on a Strat, but not terribly so. Let us know how swapping those 2 wires works, and we'll go from there.
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otaku
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Post by otaku on May 21, 2007 23:49:57 GMT -5
Hi there Unk!
Emm.... well, my wife had a child!! That's what I meant! Lol!
About the "parallel/out of phase" thing, I had been doing some research before and I came to the same conclusion, but the weird thing is that the really weaker sound is just in position 4. In position 2, even if it's weaker, it's acceptable (like in a strat). So, if I swap the wires, it's likely to fix position 4, but to screw position 2, isn't it? Also, with that in mind, can't it be that the problematic pickup is really the bridge one?
Anyways, I'm not at home right now so I can't test it, but I'll do some coil tapping with a screwdriver and come back and post exactly which coils are active and which aren't in each position. That's gonna help us spot the problems, I hope.
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Post by UnklMickey on May 22, 2007 2:13:47 GMT -5
I think testing which coils are active in each position, would be a very good place to start. I also think you might have everything right, and the circuit might be designed exactly as we intended. Having the coil closest to the Bridge active might have been a very bad choice. The deflection of the string is very small as you get close to the bridge, so the signal will be much weaker. Perhaps rotating the bridge pickup might be the answer. btw, I knew what you meant about the baby. I just couldn't resist being a smart as s. That comes as no surprise to anyone who knows me.
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otaku
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Post by otaku on May 22, 2007 3:48:25 GMT -5
What do you mean by that? I never did that choice, at least not conciously . Actually, I always wanted to avoid that. From the start I wanted to have the closest coils active in pos 2 and 4, and that means that in the bridge and neck pickup, the active coils would have to be the inner ones, and in the middle pickup, the one facing the corresponding pickup.
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Post by UnklMickey on May 22, 2007 11:02:29 GMT -5
Yes, looking back that is what I designed for. Sorry about the confusion. I'm not 100% certain about which coil is which on diMarzio pickups, so before we go changing anything, please confirm which coils are active in positions 2 and 4.It looks like I did make an error in the B+M. The way I had you wire it should have the proper coil from the Middle, but the wrong coil from the Bridge. Not only that, but the Bridge will be OutOfPhase with the Middle. Again, you should confirm which coils are currently being used before making any change. If you find that the Bridge does indeed have the wrong coil being used in the B+M position, use the diagram below. On the lower right, you will remove the red jumper between the 4th and 5th positions. Then add the green jumper as shown to feed the 4th position. I'm really sorry I didn't have someone proofread this, way back when. My apologies for any grief this may have caused. Unk
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otaku
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Post by otaku on May 22, 2007 18:16:23 GMT -5
Hey Unk!! How dare you apologize to me??? I should be the one apologizing here for such a hassle! After all, if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't even have a sounding guitar! I will check tomorrow what you told me about which coils are active before doing anything and come back here with the info. I wish I had the guitar here in my hands right now but I don't Anyways, IIRC when I tapped the coils some days ago, everything seemed fine except the bridge pickup who was "backwards", or that's what I thought; but don't trust my memory lol, I'll come with facts tomorrow. Edit: About I found that green and white are the south coil wires, while red and black are the north coil ones. Check this out: www.ampge.com/SKGS/sk/Pickup%20color%20codes.htm
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