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Post by ccoleman on Sept 24, 2006 10:51:19 GMT -5
guys ..
1. what is your opinions on what is the best inexpensive complete guitar (or kit with parts) for enhancing up to the level of a world-class instrument...??
2. what would the basic essential qualities that a guitar or kit must have to be considered enhanceable to world class level ?? body wood material? neck wood material? tuners? bridge? fret material?
oe30 semi hollowbody?
saga kit ?
squier?
ibanez?
neck thru body or bolt-on ?
etc... ??
3. what is the least you could pay to modify a basic inexpensive guitar or kit to world class level ??
thanks..
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png123
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Post by png123 on Sept 24, 2006 14:12:07 GMT -5
I did some research and here is what i found.
Price Wise: Buy Saga Kit or other Crappy Japanese Guitar (c.$100-$150 for kit/guitar) To modify in to WC guitar: (Altough it will never be World Class -mainly because of the Wood used, it will still be pretty good) 1) Change Bridge 2) Change Pick-Ups, Pots etc.. 3) Shield the Pick-Ups (c.$250-$300 to totally Modify)
In all : Min: $350 Max $450 (Not painted) ---- The thing that is unchangeable of a guitar is it's shape and Wood. Squire's has better wood than Saga (atleast i think), and Ibanez Better than Squire.
So buying an ibanez, and re-wiringm Shielding and maybe changeing Pick-Ups will cost you around $200 (if you want pick-ups better than Ibanez ones. And it is painted
Ibanez c. $600 Mod: $200
Total $700. --- You will have a World Class Guitar but quite expensive. ---------------------------------
There is also the option of ordering seperate parts (from Warmoth example), Which are abit more expensive (Double a Saga Kit), but the wood is better. This would cost about $300- Body and Neck + $300 - Pick Ups, Bridge. (Not Painted.)
------ Also consider buying Second Hand Fenders and gibsons or fender mexicos.
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Post by flateric on Sept 24, 2006 16:17:58 GMT -5
I think you forgot one important factor that will have tremendous significance; the neck. You get a cheap guitar, then neck may have a poor fret job and bad action - these can be corrected, but if it has a twist, and loads of necks have a little twist, then you can never fully cure that. If the neck has a kink which cannot be straightened by the truss rod then you will never have a great guitar until you throw the neck out and replace it with a decent one. Cost: anywhere between £80-£200. I reckon a squier strat is a great place to start in the world of modding and upgrades, (why not trawl ebay for parts?) - but it will never get you a world class guitar, only one that may sound appreciably better after a couple of hundred dollars spent on it.
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Post by wolf on Sept 24, 2006 23:34:33 GMT -5
I bought the Saga Guitar Kit a few years ago and was very surprised at how good it is. Of course I rewired it (5 switches replacing the lever switch) but left everything else original. Actually, the kit arrived without the neck screws (or bolts as some folks call them). So I scrounged some up in the workshop. Still, I E-Mailed the company for a set of neck screws and when they arrived, they did seem kind of puny. I'm glad I used the ones I had. Incidentally, the guitar body is made of basswood.
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Post by GuyaGuy on Sept 25, 2006 0:30:44 GMT -5
guys .. 1. what is your opinions on what is the best inexpensive complete guitar (or kit with parts) for enhancing up to the level of a world-class instrument...?? 2. what would the basic essential qualities that a guitar or kit must have to be considered enhanceable to world class level ?? body wood material? neck wood material? tuners? bridge? fret material? oe30 semi hollowbody? saga kit ? squier? ibanez? neck thru body or bolt-on ? etc... ?? 3. what is the least you could pay to modify a basic inexpensive guitar or kit to world class level ?? thanks.. 1. Agile, Turser, MIM Fender, Squier, Eastwood, some Epis. 2. good build quality, i.e. neck set right, frets positioned correctly, etc. +1 on the neck. more important than the body IMO. everything else is replaceable. 3. $0.00. some of those are great out of the box, esp now that some cheaper guitars have Alnico pups. i usually spenf around $100 for Alnico pup upgrades, graphtech nut, and locking tuners. i'm actually putting together a nice player that i payed $25 for new!!! just one pup cost more than the git! of course, one man's world class level is another man's pee wee league.
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png123
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Post by png123 on Sept 25, 2006 12:36:21 GMT -5
I bought the Saga Guitar Kit a few years ago and was very surprised at how good it is. Of course I rewired it (5 switches replacing the lever switch) but left everything else original. Actually, the kit arrived without the neck screws (or bolts as some folks call them). So I scrounged some up in the workshop. Still, I E-Mailed the company for a set of neck screws and when they arrived, they did seem kind of puny. I'm glad I used the ones I had. Incidentally, the guitar body is made of basswood. What Saga Kit did you buy? I am interested in buying the TC-Style one from Universal Jems, but he hasn;t responded to my email (and it has been 5 days!!). What is the kind of quality you got ,better than a Fender Mexico, Fender USA?
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Post by sumgai on Sept 25, 2006 12:45:15 GMT -5
cc, Truer words are seldom spoken! I am personally of the opinion that no World Class guitar will be built with a body made of basswood. Just doesn't sound the same to these tired old ears. But you can't beat the price, I wholeheartedly agree on that. So keeping in my GG's admonition above, I'd say that you're better off buying a complete guitar for $100 or less, providing it has a vibrato if you want it, and modifying it to suit your needs/desires. Why go that route instead of a kit? Easy..... the others above are all correct, if you get a bum neck, then you're in for a hassle, or you're out some big bux for a replacement - and that's before you've even played a note! When you buy a complete guitar, you usually get to see the thing first, and you can check it out, for potential problems like this. And if nothing else, you can peddle off the parts you remove. If you put in new pickups, you can reduce their effective cost by selling the old ones on craigslist (or eBay if you like paying commissions). The overall budget of your project should not depend on any sales like this, they're like dessert after the meal - unexpectedly sweet. ;D HTH sumgai
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png123
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Post by png123 on Sept 25, 2006 15:41:15 GMT -5
Altoguh what you say is true, Ready built 'decent' guitars are 'usually' more expensive
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Post by sumgai on Sept 25, 2006 16:10:47 GMT -5
png, Define decent. We've already gone from World Class meaning that we can't skimp on anything, to "It's quite acceptable, and may be better than you might think". The compromise comes in both initial outlay, and in the cost of any upgrades. Where's the point at which we've arrived at 'decent'? If we spend the cash for a Squier Bullet, can we make it World Class? No, that's a plywood body (if made overseas). But can it be made to sound 'decent'? Sure can, with no more expense than if we'd bought a MIM or MIA Fender in the first place. The only difference then would be, we started with a better body wood, but we paid more for it. Go for what your budget allows. After all, if you stick to it, and spend wisely along the way, you actually can build a World Class rig over the years (or months, if you are in a hurry, and have nothing else on which to spend your money. ). Along the way, you'll get the use of it, you'll learn what you like and don't like, you'll learn what works and doesn't work, and if you've been selling the removed parts, you'll even keep the total cash outlay down to a bare minimum. To paraphrase GuyaGuy, "One man's decent is another man's crap". ;D sumgai
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Post by ccoleman on Sept 25, 2006 16:35:21 GMT -5
Yeah guys... what I meant in my original query ( and you may have diverged topics but that's fine also...) was... suppose you had good manual skills... how little money could you shell out.. and what would you shell it out on... to get so that you could retrofit it to make it play on the level of the top $3000-$4000 world class guitars that the top stars play ?!
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mikesr1963
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Post by mikesr1963 on Sept 25, 2006 19:30:48 GMT -5
How great can a guitar play without your own personal guitar tech. I make little upgrades on my low budget gear making it play better to me. But who is to say that if someone else picked it up they wouldn't say it stinks.
I just try to learn and adjust things myself using my tech manuals.
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Post by wolf on Sept 26, 2006 0:49:23 GMT -5
png123 I bought the Stratocaster style Saga Guitar kit. I really couldn't say how well it would compare to MIM or USA Fenders. All I can say is that it is a guitar that really works well. I tend to think that the low price makes people want to find fault with it. (Especially those who have spent big buck$ on a name brand guitar and are too scared to admit that spending 20 times the money for a guitar does not make it 20 times better).
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Post by ccoleman on Sept 26, 2006 11:34:34 GMT -5
Nice....
And if you could have any woods for the body and neck (within reason) (available mailorder on the internet or from a local luthier).. what would be your top 5 choices ??
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stratotak
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Post by stratotak on Sept 28, 2006 0:49:21 GMT -5
Anyone else heard of New York Pro. Its a built in china guitar.I got 2 of them.A strat copy and a nice black tele copy.$120 new from a pawn shop that sells them.Its cheap, but nice.Its made from alder and has a good neck.The week points of the guitar are in the electronics.Cheap pick ups and switches.Perfect for hot rodding with new pick ups and electronics.I put carvin single coils in the strat and it sounds real nice.Also another cheap guitar to modify is a yamaha pacific 112..believe its made from alder or basswodd..the pacific 012 is agathis i think..also if your talking about buying a guitar then adding price of rreplacing pickups and all..Might be just cheaper to get a guitar like the carvin bolt kit..A nice strat copy .it like $350 or so on there site..comes with prewired pick guard ..Just bolt it together and you have a nice strat copy from a quality company. www.carvin.com/products/group.php?CID=KBN
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Post by eljib on Oct 9, 2006 1:18:20 GMT -5
SX (formerly Essex) has some GREAT guitars that are cheap, beautiful, and sound and play great. Specifically, a friends strat copy came with a killer figured top, unbelievable finish job, gold hardware, very solid tuners, "Knock-yer-socks-off-good" pickups, and a vintage style tweed case, all brand new, all for $149 USD (shipping included!!!). Without the case would have been $110 I think. But wait, there's more! My uncle bought the SX, wine-red, all mahogany LP copy ($99) and when it arrived we put it through the Pepsi challenge (eyes closed A/B sound test with different 2 HB guitars). All seven people that participated that day chose the SX as having the best sound, even though two of the four guitars we used were Gibsons (Black Beauty and Goldtop RI, both early 70's). The profile of the neck was HUGE, so we sanded it down to the specs of his most playable axe (very simple mod, actually) and now it plays and sounds like a frickin' dream. If I didn't already have 12 electrics, these would be my next two, hands down. Also, I have the OE30 mentioned above and it's wonderful, too. Feeds back just the right amount, in the root of whatever chord I'm playing in. I love it. The only problem is that it's too hard for me to change any components on those semi-hollows. I tried a SAGA LP kit which wasn't bad, but still less than half as good as that SX, at over twice the price. And I've pieced together a strat off eBay (every single part came from a different auction). It cost me $250 total (which includes $50 in specialty switches) and it's my favorite player. In a separate Pepsi challenge we conducted, my uncle went through four different US strats (post-CBS) until he found one that sounded as good as mine, which ended up his Eric Clapton Custom Shop Blackie (not cheap!). He asked me to make him one just like mine. It took a long time to find what we wanted, but with patience you can get great deals on parts. He now uses only the Strat I built him, and the SX LP copy we modified. So, there's my 2 cents on DIY/project guitars. -Aaron
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Post by flateric on Oct 9, 2006 17:36:45 GMT -5
...and you end up with something special to you, unique, that you have put effort into, it can be a strong bond which I can thoroughly recommend, even putting together an ebay partscaster.
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guitarmole
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Post by guitarmole on Oct 9, 2006 19:28:58 GMT -5
I bought my Raven RG5000 on ebay for $350 "used", but it was completely flawless. For an imported Korean guitar, I can't find any flaws with it. Superstrat/soloist style H-S-H body with a triple laminated maple neck-thru-body 24 fret 25.5" scale abalone inlay on rosewood. Alder wings with walnut top and bottom wood, licensed Floyd Rose (decent), 5-way switch, etc. Low action, great sustain. Even factory conductive paint coated cavities (pickup cavities too)I can't think of another guitar you can touch for less than $600-800 that'll have the same features (especially the neck-thru). My hot rodding it is documented here: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=1159137686I would look into used guitars as well if you aren't bothered by used instruments. I am picking up my friend's Carvin DC127 for about $200, made in the early 90's and retailed over $600 then. Another neck-thru, ultra low action (~1/16"), super fast neck, a huge factory copper foiled cavity. All maple construction, heavy as a rock, sustain until the cows come home. There are plenty of banged up (or just scuffed) axes that'll make a perfect project guitar and play better than new instruments in that price range since they're used, not vintage, and not in perfect condition. There are also some VERY tempting unfinished guitars and basses being sold for cheap compared to similar instruments using the same construction and figured woods (ie Alembics). Most of the hard work is already done on them too. I wouldn't go too cheap as the neck and fretboard is the most labor intensive and critical part and it's very easy to skimp on quality here. A guitar can sound awesome but it'll be difficult and unenjoyable to play if the frets are lumpy and the neck has too fat a profile and is twisted or cupped. I greatly prefer picking up a used guitar of higher quality and working from there.
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Post by RandomHero on Oct 10, 2006 16:50:32 GMT -5
cc, My good sir, I beg to differ. Basswood, though inexpensive, has very unique and desireable tonal characteristics. Let's not forget that Vai, Satriani and Pettruci all prefer basswood in their axes, and many of Ernie Ball/Music Man's models (pretty high-end ones) feature basswood bodies. An inexpensive guitar with a basswood body can be a very attractive and affordable chassis for the hardward and electronics of your choice.
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Post by UnklMickey on Oct 11, 2006 20:46:01 GMT -5
hi Eljib,
thanks for the info on the SX axes.
when there was lots of talk about Agile guitars and Rondomusic a while back, i saw the SXs, and wondered if they might be decent.
glad to hear that they are.
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Post by Runewalker on Oct 12, 2006 12:11:33 GMT -5
hi Eljib, --- Unk?
thanks for the info on ... SX..... How is SX pronounced?
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Post by ccoleman on Oct 12, 2006 12:20:01 GMT -5
like the original name "Essex"..
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Post by Runewalker on Oct 12, 2006 12:24:08 GMT -5
My favorite chassis to mod is to find a well cared for Tradition, or a Tradition second. Typically the seconds have fret dressing issues only, but there can be minor finish blems or other probs.
They have a well made line, and the Korean sourced ones are especially nice.
Interestingly enough the pickups, at least the silver medallions have a very nice, modern sound, ie, reletively high output, but still articulate. They do require the 4 conductor surgery conversion for the insane stuff we do.
Another brand of chassis I have had good results with is Winter. Typically Chinese or Indonesian, but the 3 or so I have gotten have been real jewels. Do not care for their pups so those go fast, but the chassis(s) have been surprisingly playable out of the box. I have bought seconds in these. When Roland at Winter first started listing on ebay he was moving mostly seconds. Now it is mostly parts, with and occasional second or a buy-it-now higher priced (relative to seconds at least, but still very reasonable) instrument. The last guitar I bought was a really well rendered LP type (slight detail diffs) with a flame tobacco burst. Very nicely rendered. Down side in terms of purity was it is not a maple capped top, rather a maple veneer. The veneer is deep and holographic, and is not a photo top. Once I switched the pups, the wood sound is as beefy and crisp as my 68 LP. The pup sound is much more aggressive than the vintage -hums in the 68.
There is a guy on ebay under the name SilentPro who moves a lot of NewYork parts. I have been interested in his strat bods, and have written former purchasers who all have been quite happy. You have to look carefully and read thoroughly his descriptions. Don't expect replies to your questions. He is notoriously poor in communications, but apparently good at order fulfillment, and the prices can be good. YMMV.
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Post by Ripper on Oct 12, 2006 12:55:14 GMT -5
As I have stated before...I bought a 70's style MIM white Stratocaster about hmmm?...5 years ago. I gutted it, upgraded the pots, installed Texas special pups, changed the cap and I have had offers from die hard Strat fanatics to buy the guitar from me. I would put it up against any Stratocaster, American or what have you. Its an amazing sounding guitar! Maybe all of the elements are there. Maybe the Gods have blessed this simple plank of wood I dont know. All I can say is that I truly lucked out with this guitar....btw, I had it refreted as well. It wasnt a cheap makeover by any means.
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Post by UnklMickey on Oct 12, 2006 13:50:48 GMT -5
....How is SX pronounced? like the original name "Essex".. good answer. another good answer: eh,SEX
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rockytech
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Post by rockytech on Oct 16, 2006 14:24:00 GMT -5
Are those "SX" guitars you are referring to, Chinese jobs found on Amazon?
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Post by UnklMickey on Oct 16, 2006 14:40:52 GMT -5
hi Rockytech,
they're sold through Rondo Music.
i have no idea where they're built, but at the price, i think China sounds about right.
unk
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Post by beckerologly on Nov 6, 2006 6:23:39 GMT -5
If you wanted to go the superstrat direction, Ibanez have really good necks and a nice feel to them, some only at the cost of crappy pickups and bridge. Perfect for upgrading, in my opinion many other companies will focus on better pickups, ect (fenders cost heaps), and its a waste of money if you're going to throw them out.
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