dax
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Post by dax on Oct 11, 2006 17:44:25 GMT -5
Hi, New to board. 1 year playing guitar, 1 year of lessons, getting pretty good. Quite good with electronics. Have built custom effect pedals etc. First some background: I have an 80's Squire Strat with 2 single pickups in the neck and middle and a hum in the bridge position that I want to re-wire to get some more sounds out of it. Currently I only play with the humbucker selected and the tone and volume at full, cause that's what sounds the best... A couple of strange things about this guitar: I think it has been re-wired before, I bought it at a pawn shop and after opening it up, it appears to be have been 'worked on' by the previous owner, either that or the person who originally wired it started the job the same day. I looked up the serial number, it's made in America, not Mexico or Korea. It has the stock "Fender" style 5 way switch, not the "Squire" style in-line switch. The middle pickup has a very low output.. (maybe reverse phased by the original owner? who knows.) I originally wanted to perform the S-tastic mod, or the Strat lovers strat mod, or the 97 tone monster mod, but I think I may stay away from those for a couple of reasons: Pull on/off pots are $25 at the local guitar shop... and I don't want to order in some crazy 3P5T blade switch.. and I want to go a head and do it this weekend so parts from Rat Shack are a bonus. I am now leaning toward just doing the Individual Pickup Selection mod Here: or Here: I "wanted" to keep the stock strat appearance and use pull on/off pots until I found out they are quite expensive but I don't think that removing the stock 5-way and replacing it with three sub-mini switches will hurt the appearance of the guitar, in fact it may improve the look as my little plastic nub is missing from the blade switch. From what I can tell the Individual Pickup Selection Mod gives me all of the pickup selection options and all of phasings BUT does not give the series/parallel options. Now Questions: 1. I have heard/read that the neck/bridge out of phase is the most useful 'new' tone that you get by performing switching mods, will the fact that I have a Humbucker in the bridge position negate this usefulness? As in, the Hum will overpower the de-phasing of the neck pickup. 2. Are the series/parallel options that useful? Is it worth looking into another mod to get all of these options? 3. What should I do about the tone control? There are 3 options, leave it neck/bridge, change to switched tone control, or use 1 master tone (and leave one tone disconnected) 4. Could I add a pull on/off volume pot to add a series/parallel option, or would I need to use 3 3PDT pickup switches ala the Tone Monster Mod? I am leaning toward this mod as it has alot of bang for your buck. You get all of the pickup selection options, and all of the phasing options for the cost of 3 $3 switches and a trip to Rat Shack, plus the wiring is pretty simple. At any rate it is a good place to start? Any advice?
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Post by UnklMickey on Oct 11, 2006 22:55:53 GMT -5
hi Dax, welcome to GuitarNuts2 ... 1. I have heard/read that the neck/bridge out of phase is the most useful 'new' tone that you get by performing switching mods, will the fact that I have a Humbucker in the bridge position negate this usefulness? As in, the Hum will overpower the de-phasing of the neck pickup.
2. Are the series/parallel options that useful? Is it worth looking into another mod to get all of these options?
3. What should I do about the tone control? There are 3 options, leave it neck/bridge, change to switched tone control, or use 1 master tone (and leave one tone disconnected)
4. Could I add a pull on/off volume pot to add a series/parallel option, or would I need to use 3 3PDT pickup switches ala the Tone Monster Mod?... 1 -- even if you don't split the Bridge HB when you combine it with the Neck (OoP), you will still have less hum than a single. but also less string output. so it will have slightly greater hum to signal ratio. if you split it, and use like magnetic polarity coils, it will be hum-canceling. 2 -- that's a value judgment. the only way to answer that is to play a guitar that has S/P combos, and decide for yourself. 3 -- there's even a 4th!......... one tone control wired in parallel with a pickup, and the other as a master. personally i hate the location of the volume control. for me the choice would be simple: move the volume to where the neck tone was, and make the middle tone a master. 4 -- it gets a little dicey doing S/P switching with only a DPDT and individual on/offs for each pickup. since you don't know if any other pickups will be switched on with the one that is selected for series, there is additional "housekeeping" to keep track of. if you select a pickup to be in series with whatever might be selected in the parallel group, and nothing IS selected, you get no sound. i tend to avoid wiring schemes that have a possibility of no sound, including separate on/offs for each pickup. but that's just my personal preference. there are lots of good designs on the schematics page. you might find one there that you like, or that gives you some ideas that you can incorporate with your own, to come up with something that suits you. cheers, unk
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Post by ChrisK on Oct 11, 2006 23:06:28 GMT -5
I agree with unk. One can learn a lot just by looking around
This is a "fishing" site. We'll help you fish for a certain type of fish, but we'd rather help one to learn "how to fish".
Often the journey itself is much more rewarding than reaching the destination.
I'd rather be having.......
Than having had.........(and falling asleep).
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dax
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Post by dax on Oct 12, 2006 13:34:54 GMT -5
1 -- even if you don't split the Bridge HB when you combine it with the Neck (OoP), you will still have less hum than a single. but also less string output. so it will have slightly greater hum to signal ratio. if you split it, and use like magnetic polarity coils, it will be hum-canceling. Sorry this part isn't clear to me. I checked and my HUM does have 4 leads, 2 of them connected together and 2 connected to the switch. I was going to just consider it like any other pickup if I did the Separate Switching Mod. Are you saying I should add another switch that would allow me to swap between phases of the humbucker? A DPST switch between the 2 shorted Humbucker wires should allow me to do this correct? 2 -- that's a value judgment. the only way to answer that is to play a guitar that has S/P combos, and decide for yourself. I realize that, but unfortunately I don't have access to a modified guitar with S/P switching to try out. I was hoping to get a consensus from the group as to whether or not going to the trouble of adding S/P switching is worth the WAY more complicated wiring. 3 -- there's even a 4th!......... one tone control wired in parallel with a pickup, and the other as a master. personally i hate the location of the volume control. for me the choice would be simple: move the volume to where the neck tone was, and make the middle tone a master. Wouldn't that leave my volume switch disconnected? I do like the idea of a master tone control. Could I modify the wiring schematic to make one tone knob a master tone and the other knob do something else useful? Such as a separate volume control for the bridge to allow me to mix bridge in with the other pickups? Would that be useful? (Remember I know more about electronics than I do about guitar theory) 4 -- it gets a little dicey doing S/P switching with only a DPDT and individual on/offs for each pickup. since you don't know if any other pickups will be switched on with the one that is selected for series, there is additional "housekeeping" to keep track of. if you select a pickup to be in series with whatever might be selected in the parallel group, and nothing IS selected, you get no sound. i tend to avoid wiring schemes that have a possibility of no sound, including separate on/offs for each pickup. but that's just my personal preference. I agree with this statement, but since I only play for my own amusement and not on stage, having a switching selection that results in a "dead" guitar isn't the end of the world for me if it simplifies the wiring. there are lots of good designs on the schematics page. you might find one there that you like, or that gives you some ideas that you can incorporate with your own, to come up with something that suits you. cheers, unk You are right to point me to the wealth of knowledge in the schematic sub-forum, but I have read all of it already, and all of the schematics posted on the GN.com page. What I need help with is to figure out what one of the 30 or so different switching methods will work best for me in terms of: 1. Cost effectiveness (Bang for my buck) 2. Ease of implementation (Don't want to order in special parts if I can get away with it) 3. Range of useful tones (Again, the most bang for my buck) 4. Ease of use Pretty much in that order. I am still leaning toward doing the individual pickup selection mod, with 3 DPDT sub-mini toggle switches replacing my stock 5 way. And I may add either a 4th mini switch for coil cutting of the humbucker or a push/pull volume knob for coil cutting. Unfortunately I am having a case of "information overload" There are so many different ways to wire up a guitar out there that I can't decide which road to go down.
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Post by UnklMickey on Oct 12, 2006 16:49:59 GMT -5
hi Dax, picture, thousand words, yada, yada, yada......... i would probably only use a volume and master tone as i mentioned before. but if one were inclined to use 3 pots, a possibility is shown above. 2 SPSTs -- extremely cheap. 1 SPDT -- cheap 1 DPDT ON-OFF-ON -- moderately priced. note that the polarity on the HB when split is optimized for the combining with the neck, regardless of phase. " There are so many different ways to wire up a guitar out there that I can't decide which road to go down." get used to it! no matter how much you learn, there are always decisions and compromises that must be made. unk
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dax
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Post by dax on Oct 12, 2006 17:26:12 GMT -5
Ok, I get that schematic. 1 master tone, 1 master volume, 1 neck tone. On/Off for all pickups, reverse phasing of only the humbucker and coil cut / phase reversing whatever you want to call it on the humbucker.
I don't like it, sorry. I like the idea of being able to select phases of the individual pickups.
I do however like the coil cutting module and the master tone.
I think I am going to draw up my own schematic tonight with: 1 master tone 1 neck tone 1 master volume on-off-on switching for all pickups (for phasing) 1 coil cutting switch
I think I can get away with mounting 3 DPDT and 1 SPDT switch in the 5 way slot....
I will post it up and let you guys tear it apart for me tommorow. Thanks for all the help so far!
You guys rock, literaly.
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Post by UnklMickey on Oct 12, 2006 19:38:32 GMT -5
...I don't like it, sorry... no need to appologize. i knew you wouldn't like it. it was only there to demonstrate how some things can be done. cheers, unk
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dax
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Post by dax on Oct 12, 2006 23:53:25 GMT -5
Thoughts? I think I am going to go ahead and wire this up this weekend, if I don't like it I can always try something else.
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dax
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Post by dax on Oct 13, 2006 12:42:23 GMT -5
This one is even cooler: Replaced the coil cut switch with a coil cut tone control, and changed the tone controls to 1 Master tone.
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Post by UnklMickey on Oct 13, 2006 15:59:08 GMT -5
interesting coil cut tone control. i'm going to predict how it might act. - at the clockwise extreme, the lower coil is completely shunted.
you will have a single coil sound comprised solely of the upper coil. the upper coil will have the cap, in series with 500k. that combination will be in parallel with the upper coil. basically a tone control "on 10" or wide open.
- at the counter-clockwise extreme, you will have 500k in parallel with the lower coil.
(an extremely slight darkening of the lower coil, but not worth talking about.) the cap will be directly in parallel with the full series HB. (typical tone on minimum)
- in the "middle",
you will have 250k in parallel with the lower coil (slight darkening) and 250k in series with the cap. that combination in parallel with the full HB. (typical tone control on 8½)
so far it seems pretty straight-forward, but where is the "middle"? on that audio taper pot, about 8½ on a scale of 0 thru 10. if you don't mind it being at 8½, just stay with what you have. if you want that to be at 5, you'll need a linear taper. if ya wanna have some real fun, change the cap to 0.1uF, and swap the cw and wiper connections. cheers, unk
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dax
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Post by dax on Oct 13, 2006 16:34:25 GMT -5
Ah, you are correct I should use a linear taper pot for the coil cut. But you would end up just turning it until you achieve the tone you are looking for, so it is probably not that big of a deal. Do you think that using a tone pot for the coil cut is better than using a SPST switch as in the first schematic? It does give you another 'control' option that the first circut doesn't have. But since I have never played a modified guitar I don't have any basis for comparison. PS: I went to Radio-Shack at lunch today and found 3 Mini Center Off DPDT toggle switches. They didn't have the sub-mini ones I was looking for, but I "think" that I can fit the three of them in the stock 5 way slot, won't know until I get home tonight and break out the drill. They also didn't have the 0.02uF and 0.033uF Metal Disc caps I wanted, only ceramic and electrolytic (big suprise) and they don't carry copper tape or conductive paint, or 250K or 500K audio taper pots. I wanted to replace my stock pots because they are starting to get scratchy but I will just use the ones I have untill I can get some better ones from the music store. My electronics cavity is painted with condiuctive paint but the cover plate is not, I was hoping to copper tape the entire cavity and cover plate, but I will live with it untill I can source copper tape. As you can tell I am eager to get started re-wiring this beast, so I will report back on Monday and let you guys know how it went. Thanks SO MUCH for your help. Dax
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dax
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Post by dax on Oct 13, 2006 16:38:12 GMT -5
PS: What would changing the cap to 0.1uF, and swapping the cw and wiper connections do? Allow me to fade between in phase and out of phase?
I can't seem to wrap my head around audio circuts, AC circut theory has way too much math involved, I am so much better with DC. (the scary thing is I have built effect pedels and I still don't understand how it works!)
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Post by UnklMickey on Oct 13, 2006 17:21:21 GMT -5
hi Dax, i agree that you have added a function, and eliminated a switch. in that respect, the new control is interesting. i usually avoid shunting coils (it's against my 'religion'), but sometimes, it's the only way to get things done. if you noticed, the version i first laid out swapped the 'singled' coils of the HB, when the phase was switched. neither of your schemes do that. so depending on how you stack the coils of the HB, the hum-canceling will occur in either in-phase or OoP. if OoP B+N will be an important sound for you, target that as where the hum-canceling will occur. if your Neck and Middle have opposite magnetic polarity, they will hum-cancel when both are in-phase. also in the same scenario, Bridge and Middle in-phase will hum cancel. ceramics aren't death, but i do prefer metal film, paper in oil, just about anything (except electrolytics). ...I went to Radio-Shack at lunch today and found 3 Mini Center Off DPDT toggle switches. They didn't have the sub-mini ones I was looking for, but I "think" that I can fit the three of them in the stock 5 way slot... be glad! if there is any way possible to fit the minis, use them. i used sub-minis once. didn't like them. the feel was crappy, but that might have been because of the manufacturer instead of the size. the terminals are closer together, so it make the soldering more difficult. if you draw out the last idea i threw at you, it will become apparent. middle won't do much of anything. cw will shunt the lower coil, just like yours. ccw will have the upper coil bypassed down to the series link by the cap, and the lower coil normal. you'll have the high frequencies of the lower coil, and the low frequencies (and hum-canceling) of a normal series HB. unk
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