jazzy
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Post by jazzy on Jan 19, 2007 9:14:06 GMT -5
Hi,
Recently i purchased
The Ultimate in Guitar Pickup Tone Control
from eBay (a rather cheap=$4.99 PDF, so i thought i 'll give it a try).
It's written by Tom Wnorowski and describes a "TW29 Mod" which making all possible combinations (series, parallel) would result in 29 different pickup tones on a standard 3 singlecoil-strat.
Am studying it but was wondering if anyone of you knows this "book", modification.
If so, your opinion please.
Thanks
Jazzy
BTW: searching trough my bookmarks i refound a url about the guitarmax, will post about it in a minute
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Post by sumgai on Jan 19, 2007 15:49:38 GMT -5
jazzy,
The argument rages on, but the consensus is, there are way more than a mere '29' tones to be had from a 3-SC guitar.
What might be interesting here is how the switching is arranged. How many, how is it/are they mounted, etc.
Our friend Mr. Google has no knowledge of this particular iteration of Wnorowski, nor of a TW29 guitar mod. Hmmm....... your minute is about up, where's your bookmark link? ;D
sumgai
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Post by sumgai on Jan 19, 2007 16:09:56 GMT -5
Edit removed some comments that were rendered moot in the other thread. /edit
I'll continue my thoughts on the Max product over there. In the meantime, I'm waiting with 'bated breath for more on the Wnorowski TW29 thingie........
sumgai
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jazzy
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Post by jazzy on Jan 19, 2007 18:49:26 GMT -5
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jazzy
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Post by jazzy on Jan 19, 2007 18:49:55 GMT -5
And BTW: the post about the guitar max is a totally different subject
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Post by ChrisK on Jan 20, 2007 0:03:09 GMT -5
Hmmm...
In a three single coil pickup guitar, sans phasing, the following combinations are possible:
1 of none 3 of one pickup at a time 3 of two pickups at a time in parallel 3 of two pickups at a time in series 1 of three pickups at a time in parallel 1 of three pickups at a time in series 3 of of one pickup in series driving two in parallel 3 of of one pickup in parallel across two in series
18 TOTAL
Way LESS than 29.
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jazzy
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Post by jazzy on Jan 20, 2007 5:05:42 GMT -5
Thats what i thought:
29 cannot be possible, probably some doubles.
I will study them (still havent read the whole "book") and keep you informed.
Jazzy
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Post by sumgai on Jan 20, 2007 18:14:55 GMT -5
Chris, Which is why I did include 'phasing' in my calculations. And one can't just double the number of 18 combos, one needs also to reverse each of the pups in those '2S-1P' or '2P-1S' combos. I'm too lazy to figure that out right now! ;D sumgai
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Post by johan on Jan 21, 2007 4:34:28 GMT -5
sorry, but about buying such documents...this is the way to make free money on internet.
1/ dive into newsgroups and find a particular interest (many ways to wire your guitar) 2/ copy and paste and draw and pdf a very nice document with a lot of white and color pics into pdf 3/ setup a website with pdf download an paypal. promote through google adds, costs $25
now they're already selling over ebay.
i would only buy these to put them online for free to stop this. watch me evade copyright!
you can read this great forum for free j
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Post by JohnH on Jan 21, 2007 5:38:28 GMT -5
If you take Chris' 18 in phase combos, subtract the one with no pups on, and add the possible phased versions of the others, I make 47 total. That's all with sounds that are theoretically different, ie +B-N sounds the same as -B+N, so counts only once.
So 29 is missing some, and thats a worry, but somehow I won't lose much sleep over it
J
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jazzy
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Post by jazzy on Jan 21, 2007 8:10:53 GMT -5
Hi Johan,
That was my first reaction when i first saw the advertisement. At that time it was more expensive as i remember.
Right now this is in my first impression for less than 5$ a rather detailed PDF that really helps me as a newbie to understand what i could do (not only schematics).
That someone is making a little money for something that can be found elsewhere....well this is the free western world i guess. Even guitarlessons and guitars cost..
JAzzy
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jazzy
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Post by jazzy on Jan 21, 2007 8:12:17 GMT -5
These are the 29 options:
01) bridge pickup output alone. (02) middle pickup output alone. (03) neck pickup output alone. (04) bridge pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection) plus middle pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection). (05) bridge pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection) plus neck pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection). (06) middle pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection) plus neck pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection). (07) bridge pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection) plus middle pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection) plus neck pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection). (08) bridge pickup output (out-of-phase, parallel connection) plus middle pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection). (09) bridge pickup output (out-of-phase, parallel connection) plus neck pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection). (10) middle pickup output (out-of-phase, parallel connection) plus neck pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection). (11) bridge pickup output (out-of-phase, parallel connection) plus middle pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection) plus neck pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection). (12) bridge pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection) plus middle pickup output (out-of-phase, parallel connection) plus neck pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection). (13) bridge pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection) plus middle pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection) plus neck pickup output (out-of-phase, parallel connection). (14) bridge pickup output (in-phase, series connection) plus middle pickup output (in-phase, series connection). (15) bridge pickup output (in-phase, series connection) plus neck pickup output (in-phase, series connection). (16) middle pickup output (in-phase, series connection) plus neck pickup output (in-phase, series connection). (17) bridge pickup output (in-phase, series connection) plus middle pickup output (in-phase, series connection) plus neck pickup output (in-phase, series connection). (18) bridge pickup output (out-of-phase, series connection) plus middle pickup output (in-phase, series connection). (19) bridge pickup output (out-of-phase, series connection) plus neck pickup output (in-phase, series connection). (20) middle pickup output (out-of-phase, series connection) plus neck pickup output (in-phase, series connection). (21) bridge pickup output (out-of-phase, series connection) plus middle pickup output (in-phase, series connection) plus neck pickup output (in-phase, series connection). (22) bridge pickup output (out-of-phase, series connection) plus middle pickup output (out-of-phase, series connection) plus neck pickup output (in-phase, series connection). (23) bridge pickup output (out-of-phase, series connection) plus middle pickup output (in-phase, series connection) plus neck pickup output (out-of-phase, series connection). (24) bridge pickup output (in-phase, series connection) plus middle pickup output (in-phase, series connection) plus neck pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection). (25) bridge pickup output (in-phase, series connection) plus neck pickup output (in-phase, series connection) plus middle pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection). (26) middle pickup output (in-phase, series connection) plus neck pickup output (in-phase, series connection) plus middle pickup output (in-phase, parallel connection). (27) bridge pickup output (out-of-phase, series connection) plus middle pickup output (in-phase, series connection) plus neck pickup output (out-of-phase, parallel connection), (28) bridge pickup output (out-of-phase, series connection) plus neck pickup output (in-phase, series connection) plus middle pickup output (out-of-phase, parallel connection). (29) middle pickup output (out-of-phase, series connection) plus neck pickup output (in-phase, series connection) plus bridge pickup output (out-of-phase, parallel connection).
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Post by ChristoMephisto on Jan 21, 2007 23:48:08 GMT -5
Now theres something i can do to my friends guitar, he wanted a frankenstein anyway, he wants a speaker in it to like on the Teisco TRG-1.
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Post by ChrisK on Jan 22, 2007 0:49:21 GMT -5
For phasing, only the total number of coils minus 1 need to be able to be reversed. The pickup positions shall remain nameless to reduce the number of words that I have to type.
In a three single coil pickup guitar, with phasing, the following combinations are possible:
1 of none
3 of one pickup at a time 0 phasing possible
3 of two pickups at a time in parallel 3 of two pickups at a time in parallel with 1 phase reversal
3 of two pickups at a time in series 3 of two pickups at a time in series with 1 phase reversal
1 of three pickups at a time in parallel 1 of three pickups at a time in parallel with 1 phase reversal 1 of three pickups at a time in parallel with 1 other phase reversal 1 of three pickups at a time in parallel with 2 phase reversals
1 of three pickups at a time in series 1 of three pickups at a time in series with 1 phase reversal 1 of three pickups at a time in series with 1 other phase reversal 1 of three pickups at a time in series with 2 phase reversals
3 of of one pickup in series driving two in parallel 3 of same with 1 phase reversal 3 of same with 1 other phase reversal 3 of same with 2 phase reversals
3 of of one pickup in parallel across two in series 3 of same with 1 phase reversal 3 of same with 1 other phase reversal 3 of same with 2 phase reversals
48 Total or 47 without all off being counted
Way more than 29.
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Post by sumgai on Jan 22, 2007 6:10:06 GMT -5
Chris, Considerably more than you first enumerated, way back here: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=1145483375&page=1#1145488097 ;D IIRC, 47 combos was first elucidated by Hastings, along about Pg 3 of that thread. But not too much later, unklmickey piped up with a 'mere' 39 combos. JohnH vindicated Hastings, but I gave a very lenghty disseration on why there are 12 more reverse-phase combos that are not redundancies. (One of these days, I've gotta get back and finish that project - it's been in limbo for long enough!) WOWSA! look at that clock.... too much research, I'm outta here for the nonce! sumgai p.s. BTW, unk also referenced the TW29 in an even earlier thread, so GN2 members knew about it way back when!
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Post by sumgai on Jan 22, 2007 6:13:48 GMT -5
As I noted a moment ago, unk referenced an earlier thread about the Ultimate Tone Control - the TW29. Just for drill, I perused that thread, and what do you suppose I find........
Jeez, Jazzy, it only took you a year and a quarter to make up your mind and buy the thing! ;D ;D ;D
Yep, Jazzy has twice now started ugly and viscious wars over how many pickup combinations can be derived from 3 single coil pups. Even unk hasn't accomplished that feat! ;D
This has gotta be worth a No-Prize at least!
sumgai
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Post by UnklMickey on Jan 22, 2007 9:34:49 GMT -5
...But not too much later, unklmickey piped up with a 'mere' 39 combos. ... p.s. BTW, unk also referenced the TW29 in an even earlier thread, so GN2 members knew about it way back when! i was wrong about the 39. i started with the 94 possible combinations and distilled out all the redundancies to get 39. problem is: there are more than 94 to begin with. i didn't reference the TW29. AFAIK it didn't exist at the time.
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jazzy
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Post by jazzy on Jan 22, 2007 15:15:58 GMT -5
Great input
47....
How many of those would i really like and use i wonder.....
Jazzy
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jazzy
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Post by jazzy on Jan 22, 2007 15:19:33 GMT -5
And in all that time i
first forgot that i had posted before (did I, i will check and read the threat) wasn't convinced enough didnt miss the 47-5 enough almost had forgotten about this book but recently started to check and clean up all the bookmarks. after buying the book and revisiting the forum i searched for ultimate but couldnt find.
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jazzy
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Post by jazzy on Jan 22, 2007 17:08:26 GMT -5
MEA CULPA
After having found out what i did wrong when i used the search i found my old thread back and read it again (believe me i couldn't find it before thouhh i remembered having posted something about 2 years ago)
Anyway.
Thanks for all the input, i will study it thoroughly (also the old info) and choose my strategy. Maybe even stay at my 5-switch without rewiring, or buy a cheap strat to start with.
Jazzy
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Post by sumgai on Jan 23, 2007 4:18:24 GMT -5
unk, You didn't mention it by name, but it was the same product, and your description nailed it. I just put two and two together, and committed a faux pas. sumgai
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Post by ChrisK on Jan 23, 2007 13:19:16 GMT -5
As mentioned in that thread, I was listing the possible combos in MY design (mentioned as sans phasing and one other). Both of my recent posts in-thread related to a logical count of possible combos without reference to any particular pickup (or even pickups, as they could just as well be transformer secondaries or signals). For structure, it's all of the possible configurations of 3 things taken in combinations of 1, 2, and 3 at a time, compounded by the possible serial/parallel topologies. For phase, since phase is only meaningful in an AC context relative to something else, for any number of coils, only n-1 coils need to be varied for phase reversal count. For 1 pickup, no phase reversal is meaningful. For 2 pickups, only 1 phase reversal is meaningful. -A structure B is the same as A structure -B A structure B is the same as -A structure -B There are two phasing variations per 2 coil structure. For 3 pickups, only 2 phase reversals are meaningful, but must be applied in a consistent manner. There are four phasing variations per 3 coil structure. The actual structure itself does not matter in determining the phasing variations, only the possible member variations [n-1] thence applied to the possible structural variations. If I've missed something (or the principals of combinational mathematics do not apply here), please let me know.
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Post by sumgai on Jan 23, 2007 15:01:46 GMT -5
Chris, It isn't so much that you've missed anything, I know you followed the previous thread just fine. Where I'm venturing off into uncharted territory is the hypothesis that 3 pickups in some combination of serial/parallel might produce different sounds according to which pup is reversed - due to string excitation. Like you, I know that a series of coils will produce a certain result, given a certain structure..... but that's electrically speaking. I'm looking at the potential of an external excitation (the string's vibrations) modulating the resultant signal by virtue of a combo's property of nodal resonance. Given: (B+N)*M should yield the same as (-B+-N)*M, should it not? But what happens in the case of (B+N)*-M, is that the same? Some here would argue 'Yes', but I'm not so sure. I want.... no, make that 'need' to finish my original project, the SideSlap mod. I have all the parts and paraphernalia, I just have to devote some hours to setting it all up. What with the Other Half wanting to find land, build a new home, and move... all in this coming summer, I'm gonna have to give up either sleep or playing out, one of the two. I'll leave off for now, but someone should keep on my butt about this, it might prove interesting. Or failing that, it'll be instructional. sumgai
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Post by UnklMickey on Jan 23, 2007 15:10:29 GMT -5
...Given: (B+N)*M should yield the same as (-B+-N)*M, should it not? ... i think it doesn't. i think (B+N)*M should yield the same as (-B+-N)* -M BTW, i also think (-B+-N)*M should yield the same as (B+N)*-M, unk
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Post by sumgai on Jan 23, 2007 15:53:19 GMT -5
unk,
Your post above poignantly points out the crying need for an in-depth, hands-on analysis, and not just theoretical guessing.
The examples we've given are compounded when we then consider the question: is (B+-N)*M the same thing as (B+-M)*N? That's where my thinking cap goes all askew, and I can't get any traction. Definitely time for some some testing! ;D
sumgai
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Post by UnklMickey on Jan 23, 2007 18:18:00 GMT -5
...
(B+-N)*M the same thing as (B+-M)*N?
... i'll take this under advisement of John and Chris. but, i think it safe to say: (B+-N)*M = (-B+N)*-M and this is not the same as: (B+-M)*N = (-B+M)*-N
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Post by ChrisK on Jan 23, 2007 21:23:32 GMT -5
Absolutely not, inconsistent phasing changes
Absolutely
Absolutely
Probably not, structural differences
My ToggleCaster did the following three pickup combinations:
A+B+C soft, jangly, 1/3 times nominal inductance
A*B*C loud middy, 3 times nominal inductance
A*B+C 2/3 times nominal inductance A*(B+C) 3/2 times nominal inductance
A*C+B 2/3 times nominal inductance A*(C+B) 3/2 times nominal inductance
B*C+A 2/3 times nominal inductance B*(C+A) 3/2 times nominal inductance
These 8 combo's all sound different. The series/parallel groupings are somewhat closer in sound amongst like structures (A*B+C vs A*C+B vs B*C+A ).
Regarding the statement about where a coil lies in a particular structure, I'm most willing to think on this since coils in parallel tend to average, and coils in series tend to add. That being said, A*(B+C) is A plus the average of B and C, and B*(A+C) is B plus the average of A and C. The weighting of each pickup's signals is/may well be different, and thence will be their harmonic contribution.
That's a firm maybe!
I hope that you use a spectrum analyzer with FFT, and a repeatable "plectum'izer". Anything less is somewhat less than meaningful (or at least repeatable).
I did a manual extrapolation of all possible combos of four coils today. I don't know if I missed any (the symmetrical duality of inductance results seem to indicate that I haven't missed an odd number of structures).
I count 100 sans off and phase.
I count 572 sans off with phase.
Based on this, and knowing the results for 1, 2, and 3 coils, I'll try to derive equations that will predict the actuals regardless of the number of coils (but I ain't gonna check it beyond 5).
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jazzy
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Post by jazzy on Jan 24, 2007 14:29:12 GMT -5
This discussion
I learn a lot from it
almost calls for an experimental set-up (probably more easy to achieve than a total rewiring???
Which (empirically) can probably show if significant differences in tone do occur.
Of course bot the same as the real deal with a real guitar but...
Or am I wrong
Very curious
Jazzy
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Post by sumgai on Jan 24, 2007 18:00:43 GMT -5
Jazzy, Yes, my curiosity is now fully aroused, as it was last summer. I bought a cheap Squier test bed, took it all apart, and promptly let life get in the way. It is now time to dust off that box of parts, and do the deed. If you'll refer to the thread Side-Slap Strat Strikes Back, you'll see the switching arrangement that I will implement in order to perform my testing. As noted therein, I do not intend that this Rube Goldberg arrangement be installed permanently, it is only for laboratory testing, such as we are contemplating here. sumgai
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Post by sumgai on Jan 24, 2007 18:26:45 GMT -5
Chris, Sadly, my trusty old HP surplus analyzer bit the dust several years ago - literally. Long story short, I never replaced it. Besides, it was post-WWII vintage, pre-FFT capabilities. What can you recommend, either really cheap hardware-wise, or perhaps software wise? Already worked up a 'donkey' to do the plucking! When I put the whole test bed together, I'll take pictures. sumgai
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