jazzy
Apprentice Shielder
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Post by jazzy on Jan 19, 2007 9:19:27 GMT -5
Hi, Anyone that could comment on www.precisionmusictech.com/gmax.htm30 tones from 3 single coils??? using a little device wired to your strat? I am considering rewiring (see another post about the "book" Ultimate Guitar Tone Control), am not a real expert in electronics and soldering, zo i thought maybe this would do the same trick with less soldering (but probably more bucks). Jazzy
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Post by JohnH on Jan 19, 2007 15:14:29 GMT -5
Well there's a clever thing - never seen one of those before!
Theres nothing wrong with the theory of it. I would doubt that there is much less work in installing in however, as compared to one of our GN2 monster designs. You still have to wire up the pups and the slector switch, and where does the little box go and how do you mount it so it can be programmed?.
If you have one of those, there is no chance of understanding how it works, nor repairing it if it goes wrong. A well executed passive switching scheme however, is all laid out for you to follow and understand. It needs no more than late 19th century technology.
cool gadget though.
John
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Post by sumgai on Jan 19, 2007 16:16:41 GMT -5
This thread could easily be renamed "The Digital Switching Thread". I've been toying with the idea of getting heretical, and offering up a digital switch diagram. While it's more 20th Century than John's tech needs , it would open up a world of possibilites. The Max unit linked above is slick, and I wonder how much of the price derives from all that wow-ness. I personally think it could be simpler, and less costly into the bargain. But then again, I don't wanna be in the business of making, selling, or worst of all, supporting anything like this again. Been there, done that, earned the free T-shirt. ;D (But unklmickey was the one who lined his birdcage with it! ) Besides, for me, this thing is too limited. No control over my piezo saddles! sumgai
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Post by UnklMickey on Jan 19, 2007 17:36:25 GMT -5
this concept is not really news to this forum. O.K. guys, here's my three cents * on this one. i'm not real keen on putting batteries in guitars. not saying you shouldn't, but mostly i wouldn't. basically you need an extra pole on each switch to keep things separate between the audio and the indicator lights. you can economize on battery drain by using a short duty cycle oscillator (like they used to use on the old LED display calculators) to run the leds. -- but experimentation would be in order to insure that none of that noise gets into the signal chain. honestly though, if i were to be moved to put batteries in a guitar, i probably would be looking to use fewer rather than more poles. and to get even more complex configurations than are presently possible. that would be a quantum leap forward in switching arrangements. a bit cryptic, but i'll bet some of you might guess where i'm going with this last part unk EDIT: i just got a P.M. from JohnH. it cause him to think of mostly the same thing i had in mind (just a bit different, in some ways even better). i'll leave this one alone for a while, to see if anyone else chimes in or P.M.s me with some other variations. *i can never seem to stop at putting in two cents (but you guys already knew that!). this thing could be quite slick..............or it could vacuum. it all depends on how usable the interface is, and how many nodes are available. one thing is certain. it won't be, as good as it could be. unk
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Post by ChrisK on Jan 20, 2007 2:09:08 GMT -5
I’ve been waiting patiently for this post for some time….
One hears about great minds thinking alike. In reality, great minds just think.
This switching concept was ripe to occur. I got back into guitars/wiring design after a 30 year hiatus (1971 to 2001). What surprised me was that it had not occurred by then.
In October of 2001 I began informal work on what I called the Micro Mixer, a microcomputer-based analog switch array for in-body pickup and tone control switching. I know this date since this is the save date of my first schematic representation of a three single coil switching structure for the Micro Mixer. One could use a 5-way to select the structure as well as a 12 position sub-miniature rotary (Greyhill) switch for variety. I alluded to it to some as being an “Analog Modeling Guitar”. The intent was to use some standard pickups selected for variety (dissimilar is good) that would be configured to mimic various guitar types and pickup structures.
I’d thought about designing a DSP based digital guitar (there were already DSP based effect boxes, and a DSP based 10 band stereo mixer had been designed over 10 years before), but while I knew how to design the hardware, I knew little about how to model particular instruments in software. I also figured that it would cost about $500,000 to design/market/produce such a device.
The design practices relevant to both of these efforts were well known to me having spent the prior 20+ years in technology start-up companies doing embedded control systems design both as a principal and VP of Research.
I decided not to pursue the digital guitar effort having spent the last 6 years in a start-up (12+ hours a day, every day) as a cofounder and co-owner (and co-investor/co-funder), and having been lucky enough to sell the company 3 weeks before 9/11 (it’s really nice to get completely out of debt and then some), I wanted to “catch my breath” since we were thrust into a recession by 9/11.
I decided to pursue the analog switching model as a hobby.
I initially started with a GAL (Generic Array Logic) and then a small (PIC) micro driving 8 SPST analog switches for structure and two DPDT analog switches for phasing. I also evaluated using miniature latching relays (to eliminate steady-state power dissipation), but their size was an issue for fit into an unmodified guitar body.
This progressed to using the Maxim MAX4550-4570 which could do all of the above in a single IC. These cost about $5 each and were 28 pin SSOP packages, which were fairly large for in-body use. I secured samples and did some prototyping. This was neat, but limited to 3 single coils (it created a 5 input/4 bus structure with one of the bridge pickup wires hard wired to common). It wasn’t complex enough for me since it could only switch pickups and not other tone modeling/effecting components. Remember, my intent was to make an analog modeling guitar.
I moved on to using the AD75019, which provides a 16 x 16 SPST analog switch array. These cost about $30 each. This is not a small part; it’s a 44 pin PLCC which is about ¾” square. It would enable me to do up to 8 pickup coils, and some tone control digital pots/caps. It was a huge array, but I considered using two of them for even more flexibility. The entire array had to be written at one time, so there were some issues there, and the write logic was dynamic so it had to be done quickly which affected power dissipation.
Around this point in my progress the Variax hit the streets. I bought one of the first ones to use as a basis for developing my models since I wasn’t going to go thru the process of acquiring my own array of vintage instruments. I realized some interesting combinations (pre-models if you will), but again, this was a hobby. I also realized that I wasn’t going to accurately mimic nearly as many guitar model types as the digital ones would.
Then, I noticed that folks were not lining up to buy the Variax at any of the Guitar Centers that I frequented. In fact, many shunned it and thought it an abomination. But, by this time (2004), I’d considered this effort fairly moot commercially since the digital models will only get better over time.
More recent thoughts about this project had led me to the ADG2120 which provides an 8 x 12 SPST analog switch array. These cost about $8 each. Also, the ADG2108 which provides an 8 x 10 SPST analog switch array. These cost about $5 each. These are both small ball grid arrays and ideal for integration within a guitar.
The one thing that slowed down my interest in my modeling efforts (other than the lack of profound market interest in the Variax) was that I'd bought 50 surplus 1 of 10 gold plated lever (as in like thumbwheel) switches and made a mechanical pickup/tone/volume 24 pole by 10 bus switching array in a used hard tail guitar body. Then I learned how things sounded with far less software to develop.
However (and I may well be wrong), the market for such analog contraptions is limited. The vast majority of the guitar buying public are more than mentally saturated by having 5 pickup choice AND an analog tone control. I tend to believe that those that truly appreciate vintage/passive pickups will remain faithful to such, and those that don’t but want digititus afoot in their guitar will be more than served by the Variax and the VG Strat.
And, the only ones that fully appreciate tone are guitar players and not the audiences in general.
So, if anyone is interested in configurable switching arrays, I’ve done a fair bit of musing on the subject over the past 5 years…..
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jazzy
Apprentice Shielder
Posts: 25
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Post by jazzy on Jan 20, 2007 5:02:10 GMT -5
Woooaaahhhh
Interesting post Chris,
Though i can't follow everything i agree:
Most players: one or two guitars that they really like Some want it all, sometimes tweking tweking tweking instead of playing Some are going to a phase of looking foor the holy grail and maximum versaltilty ending up with one favourite guitar (probably not the Variax i agree) of which they do't even use all of the already limited PU's or combinations, their array of FX, or their multiFX is used almost never etc.
In the past i have considered rewiring several times but after a while i conluded that probably what i have is what i need.
When i listen to the soundsamples of Johnhh i hear some that i could really use (some never). So when there would be an easy way to ghet some more usable sounds i would go for it. Unfoirtunately i cannot predict which modification will be the best for my needs.
I will get some information about the Guitar Max and its price but already expect that it will be expensive and well maybe every toneseeker should rewire a guitar in an original way once in his life..........
I'll keep you informed
Jazzy
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Post by ChrisK on Jan 20, 2007 16:22:15 GMT -5
The real problem that I hear about modeling guitars is that they don't FEEL like the guitar being modeled. I agree. A Strat feels like a Strat, plays like a Strat, looks like a Strat, sounds like a Strat, and, uh, is a Strat. An LP feels like an LP, plays like an LP, looks like an LP, sounds like an LP, and, uh, is an LP. I bought a VG-88 when they first came out (almost bought a VG-8, but heard "rumors" of something new) so I've been listening to modeling for some time. Yeah, it doesn't feel completely right. I see modelers used primarily in cover bands. I had fantasies at first that I was going to invent the cure-all for all players (especially those that eschew things digital), I'd eliminate the need for having many guitars, and a new paradigm would ensue. The guitar makers would stand in line to license this technology and the industry would be reborn. About an hour later I remembered that I was already in an industry where we developed product lines and licensed them and the IP on a national/regional basis to the large entities that dominated that industry. You're lucky (preparation meets opportunity) if you get one to use your stuff, you're real lucky when you get a few. You'll never get many since the differentiated IP/style/methods are the ONLY differentiator that they have between each other. The electric guitar industry is like the pain killer industry; they're selling essentially the exact same thing, for about the same costs for equivalent models, with essentially the same effect, which haven't substantially changed for years. The primary differentiators are the trademarked words used to (mis)describe the same stuff. And, Fender is in the specific business of having many, many models of essentially the same thing. They, and most others, are in the business of selling as many bright shiny objects as possible. After all G.A.S. IS an addiction, and the addicts are most easy to supply. It's a business! Now, we guts-futzers aren't addicts, we're not compelled to incessantly tinker with things that most humans will never care about, we never stay up late at night straining for the perfect switching nirvana, we're content with the standard offerings available, and we can walk away at any time. Compulsion is.
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Post by spitfire23bc on Jan 20, 2007 16:38:19 GMT -5
Now, we guts-futzers aren't addicts, we're not compelled to incessantly tinker with things that most humans will never care about, we never stay up late at night straining for the perfect switching nirvana, we're content with the standard offerings available, and we can walk away at any time. Compulsion is. Indeed
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jazzy
Apprentice Shielder
Posts: 25
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Post by jazzy on Jan 27, 2007 1:38:25 GMT -5
Got an answer
Seems that the system is not on the market yet.
Jazzy
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Post by borsanova on Jan 27, 2007 6:01:01 GMT -5
I'd eliminate the need for having many guitars, and a new paradigm would ensue. Yes, I thought that, too, but it will never happen. The more I modded them, the more I realized that all my guitars are completely different beasts, each with its own unique character. I can try to emulate a thing or two, expand the range a bit, but when it comes to playing a certain song it has to be the one and nothing else. I can't play Barracuda but with my 345, because no other has such huge harmonics. I can't play November Rain but with my Les Paul, can't play Rebel Rouser or Bandit but with my DeArmond T-400. For playing 20th Century Boy and Children Of The Revolution I surely got the super distortion combo (24k) on my Les Paul, but my Washburn BT-10 still beats it on those without any modification. I can emulate certain Pretenders sounds with my modded Strat (B-N), but the real thing will only be a Telecaster. And when it comes to playing some Jimi Hendrix I put aside my Fender Mexico Strat and pick up a cheap 60$ copy with awful pickups because only that one gives me the real hollow psychedelic hum.
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