"Switchless" Out-of-phase?

[mjmadill]

Hey, was suggested that I repost this to get a better response.

I would like to know if it's possible to wire 3 single coils in series, and have the middle pickup out-of-phase from as default. i.e without needing to insert a "phase switch"

The guitar body i'm gonna be fitting them to only has 1 vol pot, 1 tone pot and a 5 way pickup-switch. I'd prefer not to drill extra holes into it to add more switches, if possible. Frankly, I am not bothered about changing the pickups in/out of phase once they're fitted, as I'd mainly be using the neck and middle pickups out-of-phase.

It's not gonna be my main guitar, so I'm not after loads of sounds.

Basically the pickups would be in series with the middle permanently out-of-phase. Other than that, it'd be wired liked a traditional strat-type guitar.

Is this is possible, and how simple/complex is it?

Note: I am now leaning towards adding a few switches to replace the 5-way as described in this site www.1728.com/guitar2.htm, but would still like advice on the above query.

Cheers if anyone can help

[zamzara]

Should be totally straightforward, just reverse the wires from the pickup. I think you could also just turn the p/u round 180° too, but someone more knowledgable will have to confirm that.

[JohnH]

You can reverse the wires of the middle to reverse the phase. No need to physically rotate the pup.

Humcancelling will be lost, so you may want to swap mid with bridge pups to get your main Neck and Mid pups humcancelling out-of-phase. Slightly more ambitious, instead of that, open up the mid pup and reverse the magnet(s), and don't swap the wires. Youll get out-of phase humcancelling in both NB and MN combos.

But in a Standard strat wiring, any of the above will only give you out-of-phase parallel combos. To get them in series (which are normaly regarded as being better) needs more complexity. What are you wanting? I have a few designs happening where extra switching adds series sounds to the basic parallel ones, keeping the standard switch - see the schematics page for "Strat Lovers other Strat", "2 volume Strat" and "Stratocaster Dual Sound". Other options can include toggle switches instead, or a 5-position "super switch".

Without adding any switches, but just rewiring a standard Strat 5-way, I can imagine a setup where in the five positions, you would get N, N, Nx-M, Nx-M, Nx-MxB - ie theres some repetition and a loss of standard options, but two very good out-of phase sounds. (have you tried Nx-MxB? neither have I, but I do have -NxMxB, and with overdrive it is a wild and crazy thing!)

John

[borsanova]

Oh I've just realized that while I was writing my answer, JohnH has posted his. Thus I don't know if the following will add anything new, but I'll post it anyway.

What you are planning is possible, if you invert the in and out connection of your middle pickup. Turning the pickup round 180°, as suggests zamzara, won't do it.

But before you cut your wires you should check and consider a few things.

First check if your middle pickup is reverse wound. In this case the B+M and M+N combinations are hum-cancelling. You check this by selecting the middle pickup alone and holding your guitar plugged but without playing close to a computer, a lamp or some other electric source. Now you will hear a strong hum from your amp, but when you choose position 2 or 4 (B+M or M+N), the hum will dissappear. That means your middle pickup is reverse wound. If not the better for your project. this would mean you're really lucky, but I don't believe it since all modern Strats got the middle reverse wound.
So if yours is too, you should consider that you'll lose the hum-cancelling effect when putting your middle pickup out of phase.

To preserve it at least partly there are a several solutions:
1. You can flip the magnet in your middle pickup.
This would give hum-cancelling out of phase for pos. 2 and 4.
2. You can invert the neck pickup instead of the middle. This would give non-humcancelling out-of-phase only for the M-N combo (probably the most useful) and hum-cancelling in phase for B+M
3. You can exchange positions of the middle and neck pickup and invert the new middle. this would give both out-of-phase, but only the B-M would be hum-cancelling.

[UnklMickey]

first things first!

Mjmadill,

welcome to GuitarNuts2.

that goes for you too, Zamzara. i don't think you've received a proper welcome yet either.

zamzara said:

...Should be totally straightforward, just reverse the wires from the pickup. I think you could also just turn the p/u round 180° too, but someone more knowledgable will have to confirm that...

if only it were that easy! unfortunately, the sensing is up and down, relative to the pickguard being flat to the horizon.

so rotating the pickup won't change phase.

you would have to flip the coil, so the part that is hidden by the pickguard, is now closest to the strings, OR flip the magnet so the opposite pole is closest to the strings. (but you can't do BOTH, or you're back in phase again.)

mjmadill said:

...Basically the pickups would be in series with the middle permanently out-of-phase. Other than that, it'd be wired liked a traditional strat-type guitar....

this is a bit of a contradiction.

Strats are wired for singles in 3 positions, and parallel pairs in 2 positions.

so if you want all 3 in series, with the middle permanently OoP, that can be done. but it gets kinda confusing as to what one could do for the other sounds.

there is quite a bit that can be done with a standard switch, if you don't mind shunting the unused pickups.

i just doodled up a scheme, where your 5 choices would be:

AxB, A, AxC, C, AxBxC

i chose A,B,C because you can wire it with whatever pickup you want, to be A, etc.

and of course, any one of them can be wired OoP. (out of phase)

so you could have 2 singles and 3 series combos, but no parallel combos.

i'm thinking having the neck OoP would be a good choice, and i'd make A=bridge, B=middle, C=neck. but that's just me.

John mentioned some other choices for schematics that you definitely SHOULD look at. they might suit your needs better.

cheers,

unk

EDIT:

borsanova said:

Oh I've just realized that while I was writing my answer, JohnH has posted his. ...

hahahahaha! you just posted YOURS, while i was writing mine, so i know how you feel.

[mjmadill]

Hey guys, thanks for the replies, I suppose I should ellaborate more on what I have/would like to help with matters:

It's a project guitar i'll be working on, so it has no pups yet. I'll be ordering a set of 3 Adeson Pickups in series, once I decide which way to go with them. So they're in-between singles and HBs in terms of sound.

Here's the body i'll be working on:
www.flyingguitars.com/ebay-2006-2007/ebay-pics/Bodies/FG-85-N-Body-2.jpg

I'll be adding a couple of pup adapters to fit the singles in the HB gaps. Will also add a lo-pro floyd rose. As you can see, it has Master Vol and Tone pots, and a 5-way selecter

The main reason for all this, is cos I'm looking for as close to a Brian May-Red Special sound as possible. I know he uses similar pups in series and with individual phase and on/off switches.

The main tone I'm after is the screaming solo from Bohemian Rhapsody. I found out that he uses neck and bridge in series and OoP, hence the reason for my Q, I wanted to get that sound without drilling holes into my guitar.

However, after contacting Adeson, I was advised that I would be limiting the tones I could get, by permantly having one out OoP. This is why I am now leaning back towards adding a phase switch system.

I discovered the "super strat" article, and others like it and thought that would be a way to go, giving me even more options, but I think I'll give that a miss in favour of the "Individual Pickup Selection" article on the main GuitarNuts site.

This was actually what I was after to begin with, Red Special-like controls but on a strat-type guitar. The Red Special uses 6 switches to get the 13 tones. 3 on-off-on toggles is more manageable.

I think i've actually answered my own queries with this post

Thanks again for the advice, I'm ready to get started (just as soon as I save money, buy pups, learn to solder )

[UnklMickey]

mjmadill said:

...The main reason for all this, is cos I'm looking for as close to a Brian May-Red Special sound as possible. I know he uses similar pups in series and with individual phase and on/off switches.

The main tone I'm after is the screaming solo from Bohemian Rhapsody. I found out that he uses neck and bridge in series and OoP, hence the reason for my Q, I wanted to get that sound without drilling holes into my guitar....



...I discovered the "super strat" article, and others like it and thought that would be a way to go, giving me even more options, but I think I'll give that a miss in favour of the "Individual Pickup Selection" article on the main GuitarNuts site.




This was actually what I was after to begin with, Red Special-like controls but on a strat-type guitar. The Red Special uses 6 switches to get the 13 tones. 3 on-off-on toggles is more manageable.
...

hi Mjmadill,

i think you need to look more closely at the "indiviual pickup selection" article. that is a Parallel scheme.

it will give you all the conventional Strat tones, and a whole lot more, BUT.......

it will not give you the "Brian May" Series connections that you find so important.

you will need to use something like ChrisK's 3-switch, all series design to get those. he uses 3position switches for: on (InPhase) / off / on (OoP)

if you are satisfied with all the selections as being either singles, or series, this will be a very good choice.

then all you need to do is decide which combinations of pickups you are more likely to use in-phase, and which combinations you'll use more often OoP. then determine which (if any) pickups should be RWRP.

cheers,

unk

[ChrisK]

Hey youse guys, don't ferget the Mike Richardson scheme.
guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=1153172741
Now, it does not do the middle only, but instead does the bridge in parallel with neck in position 3.

It lives here:
guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=music&action=display&thread=1144693179

While it's not as confusingly symmetrically clever ;)as some of mine (ToggleCaster fer instance) it is sweet and entirely stock looking (what, no pickguard drilling?).

[sumgai]

chrisk said:

........
(what, no pickguard drilling?).

Well, no, you can't have holes in the TonePlastic without using RW approved..... ToneDrillBits!

;D