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Post by jkemmery on Mar 22, 2007 15:35:10 GMT -5
I have an idea for an HSH wiring and control system, but I'm not sure how to wire it, and have a few questions. The idea is this: You would have 5 toggle switches, the first toggle would be on/off/on and would control the bridge pickup up would be both coils in series, center off, down, both coils in parallel. The next switch would on/on and control whether the bridge and middle pickup were wired in series or in parallel. The center switch would be on/off/on for the middle single coil, up would be in phase with the other two, center off, down out of phase. Next to it would be an on/on switch like the second switch controling whether the mid and neck were in series or parallel, and last would be the contol for the neck humbucker working identically to the first swithc for the bridge. I think this would give quite a few different sounds while being relatively easy for the player to understand. My question is whether there is a way to wire it such that if both series/paralles switches are in series and one pickup is off that the entire circuit won't be cut and thus, no sound, as in trying to get the neck and bridge in series withe each other without the mid. So, if one of you schematics gurus has an idea for this, please lend me a hand. Thanks in advance.
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Post by michaelcbell on Apr 3, 2007 22:16:17 GMT -5
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Post by michaelcbell on Apr 3, 2007 22:16:43 GMT -5
oh, BTW, welcome relative newbie like myself!...
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Post by jkemmery on Apr 27, 2007 8:53:35 GMT -5
Hey, thanks, and thanks for the input. I've been off of here for a while, drawing up my own diagram so I didn't see your post until now. I don't have any scans of but basically I think it does what I want with one little wrinkle. In order to get the bridge serial switch to work with either, I had to bypass the mid. If just the bridge and the mid are on, the serial switch will put the bridge in serial with the mid, but if both are on with the neck, I believe the circuit will be: (bridge and mid in parallel) in serial with the neck. (Providing the neck serial switch is on as well.) If all the pups are on, the bridge serial switch is on and the neck serial switch is in parallel, I believe the circuit will be: (bridge and mid in series) in parallel with the neck. Still a sonic variation, and at least it gets me lots of tonal options to play with. I'll try to get a scan of a decently drawn diagram to post in the next couple for you guys to check out, or even try to draw up something in MSPaint or some little graphics program like that. Thanks again for the input.
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Post by jkemmery on Apr 27, 2007 12:22:03 GMT -5
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Post by michaelcbell on Apr 29, 2007 13:38:12 GMT -5
I'm taking a look at this, but I'd like to know what the bottom 3pDt are supposed to do, so I can follow a littel better (include what up is versus down (like serial versus parallel). looks good so far.
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Post by jkemmery on Apr 29, 2007 17:11:42 GMT -5
The 3PDP on the left puts the bridge pup in series with either of the other two when the switch is flipped up (bottom lugs). The one on the right puts the neck in series with the mid when it is flipped up (bottom lugs). When they are down the respective pickups are (supposed to be) in parallel. Thanks!
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Post by michaelcbell on May 1, 2007 21:44:58 GMT -5
So... I found a number of issues with your diagram. I'm not sure I understand what's happenning in the neck to mid switch, though the basic concept of the neck parallel/serial switch is solid. After taking a second look at the requirements, I've come up with something that gives you pretty much what you want, with a twist. This design uses 5 4pdt on/on/on switches (with the middle position connections marked with red lines) positions given below are labeled as up/middle/down: switch 1 selects neck humbucker: local series/local parallel/coil tap (North side) switch 2 selects neck humbucker: in series with mid/in parallel with mid/off switch 3 selects mid pup: in phase/out of phase/off switch 4 selects bridge humbucker: in series with mid/in parallel with mid/off switch 5 selects bridge humbucker: local series/local parallel/coil tap (North side)  Notes: -the green unterminated wire goes to the jack sleeve -the black unterminated wire goes to the jack tip -to preserve as much humbucking as possible, the mid pup whould be RWRP. Happy soldering. ;D |
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Post by michaelcbell on May 2, 2007 7:36:53 GMT -5
as I look through this design, I did notice one problem - if the mid pup is off, the bridge to mid switch will only work correctly in series mode. I'm working on a fix for that, but just know it would be a problem.
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Post by jkemmery on May 2, 2007 11:41:41 GMT -5
Wow, thanks for that. It really is quite a bit different that what I was wanting to go with, in terms of how the switching would be understood by a player. I'm not really sure I understand exactly how all of it would work, from the perspective of looking down at the switches. I realize that I have "coils hanging from hot" in my design, but I'm willing to live with that, as the pups are potted (gfs) and the guitar is sheilded. I know it's not ideal, but, John said something in an earlier post that it might not be too bad. I also realize that when the series switches are set up, that if pickups that are supposed to be in series are off, then there will be no sound. I already have 3 2PDT on/off/on switches and 2 3PDT on/on switches bought! With the series switches, what I was attempting to do is to insure that when the bridge series switch was swiched up (series), it would select the neck in series even if the mid was off and the neck series switch was parallel. Just following the basic flow of the signal, I think it would work, but I'm not sure if there are any paths for the signal back to ground that I didn't account for, which would obviously be a problem. I may wire it up and if it doesn't work the way I want, just go with a simpler set-up. I'll have to look at yours closer to see if I can get my head around it, and possibly use it for a future project. Where would you get those switches? Those are pretty wild! Thanks for all of your input!
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Post by michaelcbell on May 3, 2007 5:40:49 GMT -5
Hey, wire yours up and see what happens! I re-read your initial post, and I did make down off instead of the middle position. Sorry about that.
If this wiring scheme doesn't work for you, I'd suggest adding a 6th switch and just going for 3 on in series/on in parallel switches (I know there's a schematic like that for SSS around here somewhere), then using the other 3 switches to do phase (mid) or local serial/parallel (humbuckers). That's my $0.03 (darn inflation...)
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Post by jkemmery on Jun 13, 2007 11:36:13 GMT -5
So ... I was getting ready to actually wire my idea up, when, thanks in no small part to the input of michealbell, I re-evaluated the schematic, and realized, it had some problems I hadn't quite seen before. So, I decided to scrap one of the series switches. This is what I came up with ...  The 3PDT switch should put the neck in series with either the mid or bridge. The other 3 work as described above. This was kind of a "compromise" to get some of the tones I was looking for ... I'm on my way to wire the puppy up, I'll let you all know how it turns out. |
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Post by jkemmery on Jun 30, 2007 5:40:19 GMT -5
I wired this up and it worked OK, basically as intended, but, there was quite a bit of noise. It was not sheilded, so that was part of it, and of course, the coils hanging from hot also played a part, I'm sure. For the actual build, I'm going with shielding, which has just arrived from AllParts, and I think I'll do away with the series selector switch. Also, the pups are chrome covered, which should help with the noise. I'll post pics of the final build when it's done. Thanks to michelbell for your help. +1
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Post by michaelcbell on Jul 1, 2007 19:34:39 GMT -5
sounds good I'm looking forward to seeing the pics. With JohnH's recent tests for ground loops, maybe someone could set up an experiment for pups hanging from hot and shunted, just to see...
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Post by JohnH on Jul 2, 2007 6:44:18 GMT -5
sounds good I'm looking forward to seeing the pics. With JohnH's recent tests for ground loops, maybe someone could set up an experiment for pups hanging from hot and shunted, just to see... I had a go at testing the effects of shunting, in this thread: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=1155954205This tested with up to 4 coils shunted while consitemtly listening to one un-shunted coil. Theres waveforms and sound samples, so see what you think, and enjoy the lively discussion that ensues when we discuss such arcane subjects on GN2. A different case is shunting one coil of a humbucker, where there are other localised changes in magnetism which are possible due to induced currents in the shunted coil. I haven't done a psuedo-scientifuc test on that one, but á quick test with alligator clips in the back of a guitar showed no change that I could hear due to shunting. It is worthy of further investigation however. As to hanging coils - it is easy to demonstrate that it is at least worth worrying about, unlike ground loops and shunting where it is difficult to demonstrate an effect. My designs do not have hanging coils from hot, but I quite often have a chain in series, and shunt selective coils to adjust the tone combination. It works fine in practice, but I suspect that there is (or should be) slightly more noise when you shunt a coil on the hot side of a chain, than on the ground side. Its much less than a single-coil hum however. Shielding helps alot. John |
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Post by ChrisK on Jul 2, 2007 17:55:02 GMT -5
JohnH,
I would propose that playing a chord shunted and then playing it unshunted leaves too much to chance/picking.
I would propose that strumming a chord and then rapidly switching the shunting on and off while said chord decays will be more indicative of the effect.
This is how I first tested for it on the ToggleCaster where only one switch needed to be toggled to change structure. This is how I noticed the effect. The T'Caster design shunted the bridge or neck while off and when either was selected for series, it was out of chain if the other wasn't series selected (the middle being off in both cases). It was most easy to strum and then rapidly toggle the other pickup between out of chain and shunted with one toggle step.
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