MIM Strat upgrade - newbie questions

[roahboah]

Hi folks -

I've got a 1996 MIM Strat I'm going to do a nice facelift/upgrade on, and my questions are pretty basic to experienced people like yourselves - please forgive my lack of experience. If you saw the thread I started several days ago, I was having some noise issues after having some pickups installed in my Les Paul, and while that isn't totally resolved yet, the frustration of not being able to solve the problem immediately has really motivated me to get some chops together with wiring/etc.
Anyway, here goes.

1. If I don't plan on having tone controls on the upgraded guitar, do I actually need to put caps in at all?
2. I have some old (70s) 2-wire Dimarzio Super Distortions that I like that will be going in the guitar. I'm concerned that the leads from the neck pickup (I'm going for HH Strat setup) aren't going to be long enough. What are the best practices/methods for extending the leads from a pickup when the existing wires aren't long enough?
3. This is going to be a super-basic guitar - two pickups and a 3-way (probably Gibson-type) switch. Has anyone put this type of switch on your Strat-style guitar, and if so, what's the best place for it that is accessible but won't be in the way all the time? I'm thinking around the same place as the stock 5-way location, but I wanted to hear from folks.

Anyway, thanks in advance!

[dd842]

Hi roah,

roahboah said:

1. If I don't plan on having tone controls on the upgraded guitar, do I actually need to put caps in at all?

No, you don't ... I don't know if you even can, with no tone pot (here is a wiring diagram of how a HH3way could be done: www.seymourduncan.com/support/schematics/2h_1v_3w.html )

2. What are the best practices/methods for extending the leads from a pickup when the existing wires aren't long enough?

You can just solder on more wire - preferably shielded wire ... the issue becomes long spans of unshielded wire that pick up interference (but I guess you already figured that out from JohnH's post in your initial thread )

3. ..... what's the best place for the 3 way switch so that is accessible but won't be in the way all the time? I'm thinking around the same place as the stock 5-way location, but I wanted to hear from folks.

I confess that I haven't done this - but your idea sounds good to me. Hang tight ... someone else will be along if they have a better idea.

Dan

[roahboah]

Thanks, Dan. Looking at the SD schematics list makes me think I'm gonna go with two volumes - it's just as simple and a little more flexible.

Another quick opinion request - beside the iron and solder, I don't have any spare wiring. Do y'all recommend buying one of those mixed-bag wiring kits that some of the online retailers sell, or should I actually buy piecemeal unshielded/shielded wiring separately?

[sumgai]

roah,

Q. 3 - One better idea, coming right up! (Thanks for the setup line, Dan. )

I'd offer up the possibility of using a Tele-style 4-way switch. They fit exactly where the standard blade switches fit, only they have 4 detents or stops, not 5. What this will give you is the option of both pickups in parallel or both in series. Many members here (and abroad) like the series tone, it's a bit louder and punchier. (Parallel is the usual combination found in stock wiring.)

As for positioning a standard Gibson-style toggle switch, you have to wonder why Gibson never put the switch just where you propose to do so........... quite possibly, it's because the switch is easy to hit, and those toggles need very little impetus for them to change - they're not as forgiving as a blade switch to the accidental touch of a flailing pick hand.

But even then, put it where you think it will do you the most good, not where someone else put his/hers.

Q. 2 - The preferred method of extending a pickup's wire(s) or cable would be to replace the entire length of them/it, all the way from the pickup to the new destination. But if this isn't feasible, then any new joint you make must be within a shielded cavity. This is all the more important in a guitar with recessed pickups and rear-mounted controls. (Although you shouldn't be facing that layout with your Strat, but I make the point for everyone.)

The reason is obvious, when you stop for a moment to think about it. Let's take the common case where the humbucker has a shielded cable for the output. This shielded cable prevents external noise from getting into the signal, right? So if you break that shield (the outer wrap of the cable), then you are exposing the internal wire(s) to probable contamination (hum, buzz, etc.). Even soldering the shield portions together with a piece of wire won't restore the shielding effect, it'll be lost. Best to do the job within a shielded cavity, and not have to worry any further.

If your pickup has only two wires (no shielding at all), they are probably twisted together in a regular pattern. All the above still holds true, but for any additional length of wire you add, twist it up about the same way as the original wires were twisted. But IMNSHO, twisting is worthless as a hum-prevention tactic. If any such wire is running through a small-diameter hole that can't be shielded, replace it with good quality shielded cable. (Of course, if it's within a shieldable cavity, then that's OK.)

Q. 1 - You don't need a capacitor, if you don't want one. If you're not gonna vary the tone anyway (the control is gone!), then there's no reason for the cap. As John points out, cutting the last tiny bit of the resistance element within a tone control effectively removes the cap from the signal, which brightens up the tone significantly. If you were to add a cap, sans tone control, then you'd be robbing a bit of the highs from the signal. Your choice, but me, I'd just reach back and knock off some of the Treble on the amp, if push came to shove.

HTH


sumgai

[dd842]

roahboah said:

Thanks, Dan. Looking at the SD schematics list makes me think I'm gonna go with two volumes - it's just as simple and a little more flexible.

Another quick opinion request - beside the iron and solder, I don't have any spare wiring. Do y'all recommend buying one of those mixed-bag wiring kits that some of the online retailers sell, or should I actually buy piecemeal unshielded/shielded wiring separately?

roahboah,

Personally, I just go to the local hardware store, electronics (or surplus) store or luthier and buy a little more than I need for the job. IMHO.

Dan

[roahboah]

sumgai said:

super-cool ideas via sumgai

Thanks for the info!
Re: Tele switch - it does sound interesting! I'm assuming that I could probably find a schematic somewhere to illustrate the setup. Big assumption, but hey, that's me! ;D

Re: replacement of entire pickup wire span - that sounds a little daunting to me, to be honest. I don't know that much about it, but it sounds like it would involve removing the tape/cover around the coils and desoldering/soldering, huh? Brrrrr.....I can just feel myself screwing that one up! Maybe not, though.

Re: cap - I'm looking forward to having them straight out - it's gonna be fun!

thanks,
roah

[dd842]

roahboah,

FYI - if you haven't already read the wire types threads, read this: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=wiring&thread=1181220932&page=1

Dan

[sumgai]

roah,

Well, I did say "preferred", but that doesn't preclude other methods. Do what makes you the most comfortable, it should be good enough.

As far as a schematic goes, I see that the Search mechanism turns up a whole lot of nuttin'! Guess I'll have to get on the stick and see if I can't whomp one up in the next day or two. (But if anyone else beats me to it, that'd be just peachy-keen. I'm kinda busy at the moment, and will be for at least another week. (Which isn't being helped by all this time I'm stealing from the job to try and keep up with this Forum! ;D))

HTH


sumgai

[roahboah]

sumgai said:

roah,

Well, I did say "preferred", but that doesn't preclude other methods. Do what makes you the most comfortable, it should be good enough.

As far as a schematic goes, I see that the Search mechanism turns up a whole lot of nuttin'! Guess I'll have to get on the stick and see if I can't whomp one up in the next day or two. (But if anyone else beats me to it, that'd be just peachy-keen. I'm kinda busy at the moment, and will be for at least another week. (Which isn't being helped by all this time I'm stealing from the job to try and keep up with this Forum! ;D))

HTH


sumgai

Sumgai,
big thanks, man. Since your original reply, I've decided the 4-way would be a great fit for a couple of reasons. Let me ask you this, though - would I be able to wire this properly even though these are just plain old 2-wire humbuckers? I'm assuming so, since I'd still be using both coils on each pickup and simply changing the combination from series to parallel (I'd be really cool if I had any gol-durn idea how to wire that!) ;D

As far as replacing the wire runs, I guess I was exaggerating a little bit...is it pretty straighforward to do, or not for the faint of heart? Your (and anyone's) opinion would be greatly appreciated.
thanks again for the great advice and kindness, folks!
roah

[roahboah]

dd842 said:

roahboah,

FYI - if you haven't already read the wire types threads, read this: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=wiring&thread=1181220932&page=1

Dan

Dan,
I did see that after the fact - thanks for pointing it out to me. There's a Radio Shack here in town, so I've got a fun weekend errand!
thanks,
roah

[sumgai]

ro,

IMO, if you look carefully at your pickups, you'll find that the wires coming out of them (the "leads") are soldered, one each, to a point on the bobbin where there is also a very thin wire coming from one of the coils. That is the joint where you have to do the dirty work, if you wanna change the entire wire/cable.

However, we need to know this: when you say two wires, do you mean:

a) a single wire inside of a shield;
b) a pair of wires inside of a shield;
or
c) a pair of wires, unshielded in any way?

Most humbuckers are either A or B, C would be highly unusual, though not impossible.

The deal is, if you have only one lead and the shield, then when you go to connect things in series, you're gonna find that the casing of the "upper" pickup (whose shield/ground lead is going to the hot lead of the other pup) will be very sensitive to external hum, buzz, your fingers touching it, etc. That's not particularly exciting news, to say the least.

Let's do this..... can you take a snapshot of your pickemup, and post it so's we can see what we're dealing with? That'll make this whole Q-and-A go a lot smoother, fer sure. Try for a closeup, but anything will be better than my imagination, right?

HTH


sumgai

[sumgai]

ro,

Well, hey hey hey, looky here at what I just found in my "junk drawer"! Why, it's a schematic that I drew up for someone just a mere 13 months ago today..... and it's the very same thing you've been asking for!!



This should help to explain, with a picture, what I meant about the ground of the 'upper' pickup going to the hot lead of the lower pickup, in my previous message. In effect, the upper pup's casing, which is connected to ground (via the shield) is no longer at ground potential, so it's now an antenna for hum and buzz! We want to prevent that scenario, and the best way is if there are two leads within the shielding (the "wrapping" of very fine strands of wire).

But in any event, this is the diagram that gives you what I first suggested, both Neck and Bridge in Parallel or in Series (positions 2 and 3 respectively).

HTH


sumgai

[roahboah]

Hey -
I took some pics of the two pickups this morning, and it's quite interesting - looks like something was done to one of the pickups and not to the other. I wish I could take credit ;D but these were pulled out of an old lefty-conversion Gibson Firebrand years and years ago.

First here are two pics of the more normal-looking of the two.





This is pretty straightforward. If it's not clear (macro mode not the strong suit on my old camera), it's black wire/white wire/bare wire all together inside a jacket.

Here are two pics of the other PU.





From what I can see, the jacket was cut and only two of the wires are still extant. It looks like the white and a non-jacketed braided wire - might've been the black with its jacket removed. Not sure. I know this pickup was functional, so that's something.

BTW, that reminds me - I'm left-handed and switch/PUs will be going in a lefty guitar. I've read that I might have to keep that idea in my head moving forward, since wiring up the switch will look different for me than it might for a righty player.

thx in advance!
roah


(edited by sumgai to turn links into images)

[roahboah]

Hey, didn't know if it was okay to link directly to images - looks like it is! Thanks for fixing that.
Anyway, I also wanted to mention that I have a second pickup option if these Dimarzios are too problematic for a newbie. I have some nice PAFs from an early-70s Les Paul that sound really nice and all wiring's intact.
TIA,
roah

[sumgai]

ro,

Hey -
I took some pics of the two pickups this morning, and it's quite interesting - looks like something was done to one of the pickups and not to the other. I wish I could take credit ;D

Don't! Don't take the credit for that hatchet job, that's just plain sick. It looks too fragile to my eyes to stand up to the rigors of daily use, but that's just an opinion based on remote observation. <insert shrug smilie here>

This is pretty straightforward. If it's not clear (macro mode not the strong suit on my old camera), it's black wire/white wire/bare wire all together inside a jacket.

You're in luck, this should do the trick. Whichever pup this is, it'll be the 'upper' pickup in the schematic posted above. (I'm sure you figured out that the Neck/Bridge labels are arbitrary, right? Swap 'em to suit your needs.)

Ground the bare wire, connect the white and black wires to the switch, and test for sound output. Check the tone to be sure the two combos are not out of phase - you'll know it if the tone is thin, tinny, weak, honky, or otherwise objectionable. But if the guy who 'repaired' the single-wire/shield pickup did it correctly, then your two pups should still be in phase with each other, so go with the obvious plan first.

BTW, that reminds me - I'm left-handed and switch/PUs will be going in a lefty guitar. I've read that I might have to keep that idea in my head moving forward, since wiring up the switch will look different for me than it might for a righty player.

For the most part, any 'reverse orientation' on your part will be from the outside, looking at your axe. Inside, you'll connect everything the same way as any other guitar. The deal is, as you handle the parts and pieces, you think to yourself like this: "I"m flicking the switch to the top, so this is the correct terminal to solder the Hot lead from the Neck pickup......" and so on and so forth. Same procedure everyone else uses. Unless they're following a pictorial diagram, but even there, such pictures are not "x-handed", they don't need to be reversed just for that reason.

Where you might consider wiring something backwards from the norm is each of the control pots. For some reason, when operating a guitar, lefty's tend to work exactly like righty's - crank the thing to the max by laying the inside-heel of your hand along side the knob, and pulling said hand towards yourself (pulling "up"). That motion means "more good stuff", and it is indeed a reverse motion from the way righty guitars are wired. (Right-handers, the motion is clock-wise.... Left-handers, the motion is counter-clock-wise. But strangely enough, most left-handers I know (myself included) are quite content with the rest of the world's notion that clock-wise is the way to increase something.) It's simple to say "I'll just reverse the wires on the pot", but the actual doing of it is difficult to remember. I've yet to see any left-handed specific diagrams for this purpose, although I'm sure they exist.

But your real bugaboo is that a guitar's control pots should be audio taper (aka log or logarithmic taper). For your needs, that would be what's known in the industry as a reverse-audio taper. If you don't use this kind of pot, the action you get out of the control will not be what you expect, except at the very ends of the rotation (full on or full off). Your left-handed axe might already have the correct taper pots, but you should check to be sure. Conversely, if you were happy with them before you started these mods, then you needn't bother with what I just said. ;D

HTH


sumgai

[dd842]

roahboah said:

Hey, didn't know if it was okay to link directly to images - looks like it is! Thanks for fixing that.

Yup, it is okay ...

BUT ...

... if it's a huge picture it will "spread out" the total viewing area wider than a stomped-on-toad-frog ... so you may want to hit "preview" first, and if all looks well, post it ... but if it's looking REAL BIG, just link to it instead.

Dan

[roahboah]

Thanks for the info!
I'm gonna get new pots and stuff, new pickguard, etc. so I guess I better check that out as I move forward.
regards,
roah

[roahboah]

dd842 said:

roahboah said:

Hey, didn't know if it was okay to link directly to images - looks like it is! Thanks for fixing that.

Yup, it is okay ...

BUT ...

... if it's a huge picture it will "spread out" the total viewing area wider than a stomped-on-toad-frog ... so you may want to hit "preview" first, and if all looks well, post it ... but if it's looking REAL BIG, just link to it instead.

Dan

Yeah, I figured that - I had resized 'em down to 800x600 for photobucket, but wasn't sure of the policy here - it changes based on where you are.
thanks,
roah

[roahboah]

sumgai said:

ro,

Well, hey hey hey, looky here at what I just found in my "junk drawer"! Why, it's a schematic that I drew up for someone just a mere 13 months ago today..... and it's the very same thing you've been asking for!!



This should help to explain, with a picture, what I meant about the ground of the 'upper' pickup going to the hot lead of the lower pickup, in my previous message. In effect, the upper pup's casing, which is connected to ground (via the shield) is no longer at ground potential, so it's now an antenna for hum and buzz! We want to prevent that scenario, and the best way is if there are two leads within the shielding (the "wrapping" of very fine strands of wire).

But in any event, this is the diagram that gives you what I first suggested, both Neck and Bridge in Parallel or in Series (positions 2 and 3 respectively).

HTH


sumgai

I think the light is actually starting to dawn over Fort Foggyhead.
So, the black circle (represented twice in the drawing) is the 'common' terminal.
Position 1 = Neck PU connected and then to ground
Position 2 = Neck PU jumpered (or otherwise connected) via common terminal and Bridge PU the same. Series?
Position 3 = two non-common terminals jumpered to one another? This is the only one I'm not sure about. Perhaps parallel?
Position 4 = Bridge PU only (The part I'm not reading correctly is how this position goes through the volume).
I know this is all super-remedial, but I'm just learning as I go - so thanks again.

Also, one quick question about the ground of the neck PU going to the hot lead of the bridge PU - what if, for conversation's sake, I decided to go with the PAFs I have, which consist of single-conductor wire with braid? Just curious.

Thx in advance!
roah

[sumgai]

ro,

I think the light is actually starting to dawn over Fort Foggyhead.
So, the black circle (represented twice in the drawing) is the 'common' terminal.
Position 1 = Neck PU connected and then to ground
Position 2 = Neck PU jumpered (or otherwise connected) via common terminal and Bridge PU the same. Series?
Position 3 = two non-common terminals jumpered to one another? This is the only one I'm not sure about. Perhaps parallel?
Position 4 = Bridge PU only (The part I'm not reading correctly is how this position goes through the volume).
I know this is all super-remedial, but I'm just learning as I go - so thanks again.

Also, one quick question about the ground of the neck PU going to the hot lead of the bridge PU - what if, for conversation's sake, I decided to go with the PAFs I have, which consist of single-conductor wire with braid? Just curious.

Thx in advance!
roah

No, not quite - your summary is reversed for Positions 2 and 3.

Parallel means that the hot (or positive +) wires of both pickups are connected together, and thence to the output. Ditto for the groung (or negative -) wires. Series means that the positive of one feeds into the negative of the other. In that scenario, there will be only wire connected to the Output, instead of two like in Parallel. Ditto for the ground of the output, only one wire is connected instead of two.

The Bridge pickup manages to sneak the signal out of the hot lead, through the switch, on past the Tone control, then over the river and through the woods to the Volume control's upper terminal. You should note that the upper terminals of the Tone and Volume controls are in parallel with each other. Of course, the negative lead is permanently connected to ground, so there is a complete circuit whenever the switch is in Positions 3 or 4.



You can do all of this "magic" with your pair of coaxial-wired humbuckers, but there will be no joy in Mudville when you select Position 3, Series. The problem is, the Neck's ground connection is also the shield, which immediately tells us that your pickup will become unshielded. Why? Because the braided portion of the cable, the shield, will no longer be going straight to ground, instead it'll be going to the Bridge's positive lead. Electrically speaking, there will be both a large resistance and a large impedance between the shielding and ground. The net effect will be, the metal cover of the pickup will become an antenna for hum and buzz!!

The only viable solution for this is to replace the wiring on the pickup with shielded 2-conductor cabling, or to replace the entire pickup with one that already has such cabling. Better would be to have a 4-conductor-plus-shield cable, that gives the best of all possible tonal varieties, should you later decide to enhance your wiring scheme.

HTH


sumgai

[roahboah]

sumgai said:

ro,
No, not quite - your summary is reversed for Positions 2 and 3.

Parallel means that the hot (or positive +) wires of both pickups are connected together, and thence to the output. Ditto for the groung (or negative -) wires. Series means that the positive of one feeds into the negative of the other. In that scenario, there will be only wire connected to the Output, instead of two like in Parallel. Ditto for the ground of the output, only one wire is connected instead of two.

The Bridge pickup manages to sneak the signal out of the hot lead, through the switch, on past the Tone control, then over the river and through the woods to the Volume control's upper terminal. You should note that the upper terminals of the Tone and Volume controls are in parallel with each other. Of course, the negative lead is permanently connected to ground, so there is a complete circuit whenever the switch is in Positions 3 or 4.



You can do all of this "magic" with your pair of coaxial-wired humbuckers, but there will be no joy in Mudville when you select Position 3, Series. The problem is, the Neck's ground connection is also the shield, which immediately tells us that your pickup will become unshielded. Why? Because the braided portion of the cable, the shield, will no longer be going straight to ground, instead it'll be going to the Bridge's positive lead. Electrically speaking, there will be both a large resistance and a large impedance between the shielding and ground. The net effect will be, the metal cover of the pickup will become an antenna for hum and buzz!!

The only viable solution for this is to replace the wiring on the pickup with shielded 2-conductor cabling, or to replace the entire pickup with one that already has such cabling. Better would be to have a 4-conductor-plus-shield cable, that gives the best of all possible tonal varieties, should you later decide to enhance your wiring scheme.

HTH


sumgai

Got it - thanks! Even though my summary was off, was my description of the wiring itself accurate? Sounds like, but I just wanted to make sure.
I heartily appreciate your assistance, sir!
thanks,
roah