Push-Push Pots?

[suicufnoc]

Has anyone here used push-push pots? How do they compare to push-pulls?

[ChrisK]

I have used three of them from Warmoth (a vendor, not a manufacturer).

Two of them failed before I could wire them in. This was after about perhaps 20 to 50 actuations checking for things such as knob height.

I dissected a failed one and found that the switch spring was much too strong (by perhaps a factor of 2) or the "nub" on the alternating latching mechanism was too weak (that was what had failed). Both are probably the root causes.

I'm glad that they failed prior to my actual use of them, however, I won't use them since the mechanical design isn't, well, designed well.

[suicufnoc]

Ok thanks. That finalizes my decision. Push-pulls will allow the knobs to be lower, anyway.

[JohnH]

chrisk said:

I have used three of them from Warmoth (a vendor, not a manufacturer).

Two of them failed before I could wire them in. This was after about perhaps 20 to 50 actuations checking for things such as knob height.

I dissected a failed one and found that the switch spring was much too strong (by perhaps a factor of 2) or the "nub" on the alternating latching mechanism was too weak (that was what had failed). Both are probably the root causes.

I'm glad that they failed prior to my actual use of them, however, I won't use them since the mechanical design isn't, well, designed well.

Chris - thats timely for me. I was seriously considering using some. So is it your view that push/pulls are more reliable devices?

Also, with a push/push, does the knob position rest in the same position between clicks, or do alternate clicks leave the knob up and down, for a visual cue to how it is set?

with thanks

John

[sumgai]

I don't know what Chris was using, but my Fender S1 (on a Strat) gets used at least 40 or 50 times a session, and that's almost every day, either in practice or at a real gig.

No failures observable.......... yet. <crossed fingers smilie here>

John, if you haven't seen it, the S1 knob's center portion remains downward when pushed, thus giving an easy visual reference, in case your ears can't tell what sound is coming out of your axe!

HTH


sumgai

[JohnH]

Im glad that Fender are fitting good parts.

I was interested in the types that can be bought seperately, such as from Allparts. Heres a thread that seems to discredit them:
www.thegearpage.net/board/archive/index.php/t-85148.html

This is the Allparts part:
www.allparts.com/store/electronics-500k-pots-ep-0296-000,Product.asp

John

[hugh]

There should be some well made push-pushes out there, I mean... lighting dimmers for the house are push push and hold up for decades.

The design is much like a stomp switch in the switch portion, right? As in something has to rock back and forth?

Seems like we just need to find a quality manufacturer of these.

[suicufnoc]

Maybe I'll try the ones I can get.
Sumgai: Pictures of which pots your's are? Maybe we can find out where to get them.

[sumgai]

Tao Master,

Not much to see, the switch itself is underneath a small circuit board that's intended to make soldering easier.

We've talked about this puppy before, here on the GuitarNutz2 Forums....... try searching on the terms Fender S1, and see what you get. Remember (as in all searchs) to go back at least 300 days, and to fetch at least 20 if not 30 results Anything less is certain to not get what you really wanted in the first place.

HTH


sumgai

[ChrisK]

So is it your view that push/pulls are more reliable devices?

They have been for me (based on a statistically insignificant sample size of both).

Also, with a push/push, does the knob position rest in the same position between clicks, or do alternate clicks leave the knob up and down, for a visual cue to how it is set?

I believe that there was a height difference, but it was pretty small. It was easier to discern by touch than by visual (why I prefer logical touch-based switching).

I don't know what Chris was using, but my Fender S1 (on a Strat) gets used at least 40 or 50 times a session, and that's almost every day, either in practice or at a real gig.

.warmoth.com/hardware/parts/parts.cfm?fuseaction=include_potentiometers
Go to the bottom of the page.

The S-1 is not a traditional guitar switch in that it is based on an OEM 4PDT alternating action pushbutton switch. These are typically good for 10,000 to 25,000 actuations minimum (although the day IS coming sumgai......). These are PCB mounted and standoff secured to a modified pot. It's somewhat kludgey (from a proper OEM design engineer's perspective [me]) and appears to work, but there are many posts that I've seen bemoaning its failures and the need to send the original back to Fender (thru an approved service depot) BEFORE a replacement one will be sent out. The position of the switching insert is free-floating, but can be discerned by finger tip touch. Taking them off of a pickguard can be a bear.

These are often available on ebay along with the SCN pickups (note that SCN's come in different flavors for bridge, middle, neck, and similar position use with a bridge humbucker - pay attention, Sparkies).

Here's what the S-1 in one of my Am Dlx Strats looks like (it's the round green PCB thingy on the back of the volume opt).



Note that the combo's available in the SSS S-1 based Strats can be duplicated (well, the middle pickup alone selection is replaced by neck + bridge) with a MegaSwitch "E" and a regular, normal, pedestrian, not-so-special, average DPDT push/pull (or push/push if'n yer braver than I) switch. I was going to post the link for this design in our Schematics section, but I recently discovered a wiring error therein (and I'm real bummed 'cuz apparently no one else saw it, or even read the post).

The traditional alternating slide switch used for push/pull and push/push aren't nearly as well designed and are long of tooth in that respect.

The push/push uses a latching mechanism since the actuating stroke is the same. This is the failure mechanism.

The push/pull relies on the operator to select the position and only has a detent mechanism for good tactile feedback.

I tried modifying one of the failed push/push switches for push/pull by bending the latching mechanism bracket into a detent bracket, but was not successful.

[sumgai]

Chris,

I don't know what Chris was using, but my Fender S1 (on a Strat) gets used at least 40 or 50 times a session, and that's almost every day, either in practice or at a real gig.

www.warmoth.com/hardware/parts/parts.cfm?fuseaction=include_potentiometers
Go to the bottom of the page.

Thanks for the link, I hadn't realized this particular model existed.

The S-1 is ........ typically good for 10,000 to 25,000 actuations minimum (although the day IS coming sumgai......).

Hmmmmm, I see that my estimate of daily use, combined with the "typical actuation lifetime", means that I'd better dog-trot on over to craigslist pretty soon - I'm already on borrowed time at something near 18,000 actuations. ;D

I was going to post the link for this design in our Schematics section, but I recently discovered a wiring error therein (and I'm real bummed 'cuz apparently no one else saw it, or even read the post).

What's wrong with my interpretation of this picture?

I looks to me like you were going to post a link, but you didn't. Should I presume that it was in an already existing topic? And if so, then why didn't you link to it here and now, so's we could bring you out of your funk? And if not, then how were we supposed to read it at all, let alone spot an error? !

And to imply that UnklMickey let an error slide by, on his watch....... why, the very horror of it all! I don't know whether to be shocked, or merely mortally wounded.........


sumgai

[UnklMickey]

sumgai said:

And to imply that UnklMickey let an error slide by, on his watch....... why, the very horror of it all! I don't know whether to be shocked, or merely mortally wounded.........

ChrisK is a menace. He comes up with inventive designs with pretty drawings, but his thinking patterns are even more convoluted than mine. It takes me hours to figure out what he's done sometimes. I have a hard enough time keeping up with JohnH. We've had enough conversations that I understand his diagrams and design philosophy well enough to be able to do a reasonable job of proofreading.

ChrisK seldom makes mistakes anyway. So, if I didn't find an error, because I wasn't expecting to find one, shame on me.

...excuuuuuuuuuuuse me for living!

[ChrisK]

I was going to post the link for this design in our Schematics section

Sorry, multiple possible interpretations. I was going to post the link to this design that is in our Schematics section....

guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=1163395682

The two wires coming to S2 and to S3 from the 5-way selector should go to the pole common and not to the "r" terminals on the DPDT phase switches.

While I was a'fixin the drawings, I had an idea about just what additional convoluted uses might exist for them there pedestrian tone controls in this design..... I've been simulating some things, but time will tell...

What's wrong with my interpretation of this picture?

I looks to me like you were going to post a link, but you didn't. Should I presume that it was in an already existing topic? And if so, then why didn't you link to it here and now, so's we could bring you out of your funk? And if not, then how were we supposed to read it at all, let alone spot an error? !

Yow!

...excuuuuuuuuuuuse me for living!

Double yow!

[sumgai]

...excuuuuuuuuuuuse me for living!

Nope, you're not excused - you're not allowed to leave until you get it right!


sumgai

[sumgai]

Chris,

Sorry, multiple possible interpretations. I was going to post the link to this design that is in our Schematics section....

OK, you cleared up that mystery, thanks.

And just for the record, that topic has been viewed no less than 769 times. Only because you were wondering, that's all. ;D

So in the interest of keeping an eye peeled (at OhDarkThirty), I just now noticed that there are no green wires coming out of the square solder pads on those pickups in your picture. Howcomezat?


sumgai

[ChrisK]

I just now noticed that there are no green wires coming out of the square solder pads on those pickups in your picture. Howcomezat?

I dunno.

It is one of the very first S-1 based Strats (or Fender anything) that was made.

It's not particularly noisy (or wasn't - I sold it as it had sustained a physical injury).

I never looked inside the other ones that I have either.

(Once I knew how they worked I lost intere...........Oh, shiny!)

[sumgai]

I just now noticed that there are no green wires coming out of the square solder pads on those pickups in your picture. Howcomezat?

I dunno.

It is one of the very first S-1 based Strats (or Fender anything) that was made.

It's not particularly noisy (or wasn't - I sold it as it had sustained a physical injury).

I never looked inside the other ones that I have either.

(Once I knew how they worked I lost intere...........Oh, shiny!)

Yeah, that is kinda strange.

I also saw that the cavity hadn't been shielded yet, so I just figured it was new as all get out. Like this was the "Before" poster or sumpin'......


sumgai