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Post by mr_sooty on Aug 3, 2007 19:45:00 GMT -5
I have posted this before but I can't find the old thread and I want to bump it.
I have a Fender American Deluxe that I'm slowly modifying. I have already changed the pickguard (to a tortoise shell, it's a sunburst model), changed the tremolo block and plate so it's a screw in arm instead of a pop-in (the pop in swung around too much when I was on stage) and added a string tree (Fender deemed that the HSS model with the roller nut didn't need one, I disagree. There was a ping from the headstock when I hit the open E string).
The only things I'm not happy about now are the noisy humbucker (may replace it, not sure), and the impractical S-1 switching options.
The main thing is that there is no option to have the bridge humbucker split on it's own, ie bridge position single coil. The 1st position is the same switch up and switch down, bridge humbucker. Seems kinda pointless. I can only guess that there is some reason why it can't be done?
Here's what I was thinking:
Switch up: standard, no change.
Switch down:
1st pos: bridge single coil (Hubucker split) 2nd pos: neck and middle pickups in series, in parallel with bridge single coil. (kinda simulating albert collins tele middle pos) 3rd pos: neck and middle pickups in series, in parralel with full humbucker (kinda simulating a LP middle position) 4th pos: Neck pickup in parallel with bridge single coil (ie, tele middle position) 5th pos: As is (neck and middle pickups in series).
This to me would be much better utilisation of the S-1 switch and its extra 5 positions. Only problem is I wouldn't have a clue how to do it! Anyone here know and can draw me up a schematic?
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Post by JohnH on Aug 3, 2007 21:40:50 GMT -5
mr s - those combos dont seem too ambitious. It would be a matter of how neatly the switching can be arranged.
A couple of questions:
In the up mode, is it just normal Strat settings of B, BM, M, MN, N, with B being the full humbucker? Is the 5 way switch a 4-pole 5-way, ie like a Superswitch, rather than a standard Strat switch? Does it have the usual 1Vol and 2Tone pots?
I assume the S1 is a 4-pole two position
John
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Post by CheshireCat on Aug 4, 2007 2:05:39 GMT -5
Give this one a shot:
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Post by sumgai on Aug 4, 2007 14:13:16 GMT -5
John, Yes to the following: Mr. Sooty has in his guitar: - the 4P5T Superswitch; - the S1 4P2T push-push (inset within the volume pot knob); - the normal selection setup as found from time immemorial; and - 1 volume and 2 tone controls (unless previously modified). However, having two pickups in series with the remaining one in parallel with that combo is not what I'd call a weak or unambitious idea. ChrisK contemplates that in his post here. Chesh's idea (Mike Richards' diagram) is certainly not a bad idea for Mr. Sooty to try - it's well tested, has lots of tonal possibilities, and the S1 is 100% compatible. I'm sure you'll agree that one could do worse. sumgai
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Post by sumgai on Aug 4, 2007 14:22:37 GMT -5
You do realize, don't you, that the inertia block has a tension adjustment for just the reason you mentioned? It's on the back side of the block, way down low - you need to depress the arm all the way down, raising the block nearly all the way out of the body, in order to see it. A very small Allen wrench is used to make the adjustment. This feature is found only on the American Standard Deluxe, not the regular American Standard. Presumably, it might also be found on some of the higher end signature model Strats, but I haven't bothered to look to make sure. When the threads of that screw-in arm start wearing a little, you're gonna be right back in the same boat. I hope you didn't throw away the original parts. Or, better yet, simply buy a Callaham replacement unit, and be done with the whole affair. ;D HTH sumgai
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Post by JohnH on Aug 4, 2007 15:30:59 GMT -5
John, Yes to the following: Mr. Sooty has in his guitar: - the 4P5T Superswitch; - the S1 4P2T push-push (inset within the volume pot knob); - the normal selection setup as found from time immemorial; and - 1 volume and 2 tone controls (unless previously modified). However, having two pickups in series with the remaining one in parallel with that combo is not what I'd call a weak or unambitious idea. ChrisK contemplates that in his post here. Chesh's idea (Mike Richards' diagram) is certainly not a bad idea for Mr. Sooty to try - it's well tested, has lots of tonal possibilities, and the S1 is 100% compatible. I'm sure you'll agree that one could do worse. sumgai I didnt mean to imply that mr Sooty's was not a good idea, but rather that it was not too ambitious, ie, its within range of being do-able. The second set of five combos are based around partial selections of bridge coils, in parallel with NxM series. All are in phase. I thought about it some more, and I can see how to get the sounds requested, but not with desirable cleanness: The 5 way is divided into two banks, with two poles dedicated to the traditional 5 sounds, and two poles for the second set. Two poles of the S1 switch the output from the two banks on the 5-way The remaining two S1 poles set up the NxM in series The problem is that the single-coil or mixed settings at 1, 2 and 4 involve a hanging coil from hot, which I dont like. Cheshes suggestion has alot more switches as shown, and the additional ones are more that two pole. But if the 5-way and S1 only were used to provide Mike Richardsons combos, then perhaps the Bridge coil cut could be on a push/pull. That cound be a very good scheme. John
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Post by CheshireCat on Aug 4, 2007 19:06:51 GMT -5
John, Yes to the following: Mr. Sooty has in his guitar: - the 4P5T Superswitch; - the S1 4P2T push-push (inset within the volume pot knob); - the normal selection setup as found from time immemorial; and - 1 volume and 2 tone controls (unless previously modified). However, having two pickups in series with the remaining one in parallel with that combo is not what I'd call a weak or unambitious idea. ChrisK contemplates that in his post here. Chesh's idea (Mike Richards' diagram) is certainly not a bad idea for Mr. Sooty to try - it's well tested, has lots of tonal possibilities, and the S1 is 100% compatible. I'm sure you'll agree that one could do worse. sumgai I didnt mean to imply that mr Sooty's was not a good idea, but rather that it was not too ambitious, ie, its within range of being do-able. The second set of five combos are based around partial selections of bridge coils, in parallel with NxM series. All are in phase. I thought about it some more, and I can see how to get the sounds requested, but not with desirable cleanness: The 5 way is divided into two banks, with two poles dedicated to the traditional 5 sounds, and two poles for the second set. Two poles of the S1 switch the output from the two banks on the 5-way The remaining two S1 poles set up the NxM in series The problem is that the single-coil or mixed settings at 1, 2 and 4 involve a hanging coil from hot, which I dont like. Cheshes suggestion has alot more switches as shown, and the additional ones are more that two pole. But if the 5-way and S1 only were used to provide Mike Richardsons combos, then perhaps the Bridge coil cut could be on a push/pull. That cound be a very good scheme. John Actually, that's mine. A large chunk of it was inspired by Mike R's work, but I also did a lot of modifications to it, in addition to the universal phase inverter and universal splitter.
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Post by mr_sooty on Aug 5, 2007 4:47:42 GMT -5
Blimmin heck, I think this is way over my head. I didn't want any extra switches or anything. In the diagrams, which one out of > and + is series and which is parralel? Also, I'd really like to maintain the 'switch up' confiuration exactly how it is: 1 = Bridge Humbucker 2 = Split coil bridge humbucker (single coil) in parallel with middle 3 = middle only 2 = neck in parallel with middle 1 = neck only And yes, it's volume tone tone, only the first tone is neck and middle, the second tone is bridge. I'll never understand why all strats aren't like this! You do realize, don't you, that the inertia block has a tension adjustment for just the reason you mentioned? It's on the back side of the block, way down low - you need to depress the arm all the way down, raising the block nearly all the way out of the body, in order to see it. A very small Allen wrench is used to make the adjustment. This feature is found only on the American Standard Deluxe, not the regular American Standard. Presumably, it might also be found on some of the higher end signature model Strats, but I haven't bothered to look to make sure. When the threads of that screw-in arm start wearing a little, you're gonna be right back in the same boat. I hope you didn't throw away the original parts. Or, better yet, simply buy a Callaham replacement unit, and be done with the whole affair. ;D HTH sumgai No, I didn't get rid of the original parts, so I can reverse it. I didn't know about the tension adjustment, or how to use it. Truth is though, I kind of like the slightly more traditional look of the screw in arm with the plastic end on it. And regarding ending up being 'back in the same boat', I have a 1988 '57 reissue (nearly 20 years old) and the arms still fine, so I can't see it being a problem. The issue really is that the pop in one does a never ending, continuous spin, whereas the screw in one can only spin so far befor it tightens itself up. I'm much happier with the screw in one.
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Post by sumgai on Aug 6, 2007 2:27:35 GMT -5
mr. sooty,
OK, I think we've got the full picture now. One of us will have something cooked up soon, stand by..........
Oh, and the original diagram was by Mike Richardson, who used "+" for parallel and ">" for series. This was all before he became a member here. Cheshirecat didn't change any of Mike's symbols. You should be aware that we seem to have standardized on "+" for parallel and "*" for series.
Mike drew his idea up with a standard toggle switch in mind, but the S1 from Fender lends itself perfectly to the concept. You can eliminate the other two switches, should you wish to do so.
Because in the old days (pre-CBS), Leo never conceived that anyone would ever play the guitar any differently that what his own field-testing crew did. And they never thought to ask for a bridge pickup tone control - at that time, the bridge pup was for leads only, and you never "blunted" the tone when performing a lead/solo - you needed all you could get in order to cut through and be heard.
Fair enough. To each his own, and all that. ;D
sumgai
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Post by CheshireCat on Aug 6, 2007 14:48:05 GMT -5
You can eliminate the other two switches, should you wish to do so. The other two switches are for splitting and phase inverting. If you don't want that, get rid of the switches.
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Post by mr_sooty on Dec 6, 2007 16:01:03 GMT -5
OK, time to look at this again. I haven't attempted to re-wire anything on this yet, because the wiring looks a bit scary. Remember I am a total novice. My electronics experience consists soley of the following: QTB mod on my Strat, Indy Guitarist mod on my Boss CS-3, and now installing LEDs in my amp footswitch.
The S-1 wiring looks kinda complicated, and I have no idea how that switch works, it is circular with several soldering points around it.
So the scenario is this. The only S-1 down sound I ever use is position 5, which is neck and middle in series. I use it infrequently, but it's quite handy for jazzy stuff sometimes. Otherwise I just use the normal switch up positions.
What I really want is to have the bridge humbucker split to single coil on it's own in one of the switch down positions (preferably pos. 1). This is priority #1.
Secondly, I'd quite like to keep the neck and middle in series option in position 5 switch down, and it'd also be nice to add a tele type configuration, with the neck pickup in parallel with the split bridge pickup. This could maybe go in pos. 3 switch down, but it doesn't really matter.
So what I'm after is:
Switch up: Standard HSS switching, which is... 1: Bridge Humbucker 2: Bridge pickup split to single-coil in parallel with middle pickup 3: Middle pickup 4: Neck and middle in parallel 5: Neck pickup
Switch down: 5: Bridge pickup split to single coil (this is the key extra feature I really want). 4: Don't care. Could be off for all I care. 3: Maybe Bridge pickup split to single-coil in parralel with neck (ala tele). 2: Again, don't care 1: Neck and middle in series.
If someone could figure this out and explain to me in dummies terms how to do it, I'd be forever in your debt. I'm considering taking it to a tech, but I love doing this stuff myself! It's so rewarding. Thanks!
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Post by ChrisK on Dec 6, 2007 17:45:22 GMT -5
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Post by mr_sooty on Dec 6, 2007 19:08:24 GMT -5
See, that diagram of the selector switch with what looks like a hundred lines coming off it really freaks me out! Anyway, having a look at this: www.fender.com/support/diagrams/pdf_temp1/stratocaster/0117000_02A/SD0117000_02APg4.pdfI noticed that position 4 (switch down) is neck and middle in series, in parallel with split bridge. So all we'd need to do in that position is somehow get rid of the middle pickup. Then we'd have neck and middle in parallel, for the tele type scenario. If we could do that, then all we'd need to do is figure out how to split the humbucker in position 1 (switch down), and we'd be set. I realise the easiest way to do this would probably be to put in a push pull to split the humbucker. But I'd really like to try and utilise the S-1 switch and not add in any more switches.
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Post by mr_sooty on Dec 7, 2007 16:12:43 GMT -5
The other thing is that even if I used a push pull pot, I still wouldn't get that 'neck bridge tele style combo', because there are currently no 'neck and bridge only' combos.
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Post by mr_sooty on Dec 8, 2007 14:31:26 GMT -5
OK Chris (and everyone else), what do you think of this idea (from a guy on another forum):
'Having a variably split humbucker on your guitar is a simple 5 minute mod. It involves making one of your tone controls a master tone and using the other tone control to supply ground to the selector lever switch terminal where the humbucker red and green wires are attached. The other requests are not that easy with S1.'
Sounds like a pretty good idea to me. I'm thinking that changing the S-1 switching may be out of my league, and that maybe I will just do something to give me a split humbucker option, which is the one I desperately want. Either a push pull pot (could you do this on the bridge tone control?) or this guys idea. I could handle having a master tone only, that'd be OK I guess. Could you help me through either of those mods?
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Post by mr_sooty on Dec 9, 2007 0:02:33 GMT -5
Here's his explanation of how to do it:
"A humbucker is two single coil pickups of opposite polarity, wired in series and mounted side by side. The second tone control will gradually apply ground to the center connection of the two pickups(the red and green wires, see the switch in the diagram)and slowly turn off(ground out) the other(lower)half of the pickup. This grounding happens already in the #2 switch position. As the lower half of the pickup turns off you will notice a wide variety of tonal differences between full humbucker and single coil only.It is like having several different bridge pickups.Remember single coil pickups are not noiseless. Master tone is achieved by moving the tone pot wire from the selector lever switch over to output at the volume control. Variable split is achieved by running ground through the second pot and attaching to the selector lever switch terminal where the red and green wires from the bridge pu are attached.No diagrams should be needed.Easily reversable"
Despite his assertion that 'no diagrams should be needed', I still feel I need one, if someone would like to draw one for me!
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Post by JohnH on Dec 9, 2007 0:51:01 GMT -5
Hey sooty - Why doncha have a go at the diagram yourself? then we'll heap praises upon you in admiration of it. Here is the Fender wiring diagram, half-inched from Chris' 'Ooh shiny' thread in the coffee shop: www.fender.com/support/diagrams/pdf_temp1/stratocaster/0117000_02A/SD0117000_02APg2.pdfIf you get it on your screen, press 'print screen' and paste into a graphic program, you can then crop it and mark on the new wires. cheers John
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Post by mr_sooty on Dec 9, 2007 1:03:13 GMT -5
Here's why. Firstly, I don't know which is the output on the volume control (the middle one that goes to the output jack I'm assuming?). Secondly, I'm not sure how to do this: "running ground through the second pot". What do I run and where do I run it? If you guys can tell me that I'll happily attempt my own diagram. But I just don't know exactly what to do.
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Post by mr_sooty on Dec 9, 2007 3:55:15 GMT -5
The other thing I was wondering is whether it'd be just as easy to make the 'master tone' a 'bridge only' tone instead. Or could I keep the bridge tone as it is, and do this fancy split with the neck/middle tone. I quite like having a seperate bridge tone and I rarely use the neck/middle tone. So what I was thinking is, just take the connection from the neck/middle tone pot that goes to the selector switch out completely, and run a ground through that pot (middle terminal?) to the green and red humbucker wires on the selector switch.
Also, do I need to disconnect the tone capacitor from the pot that's being the 'splitter', or will that tone capacitor not matter?
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Post by JohnH on Dec 9, 2007 6:44:13 GMT -5
Fair enough. And what you say seems easy to do.
Is the pot furthest from the strings a bridge and midle tone control? is so, I suggest just leave it as it is.
On the middel pot, there is one wire connected to the lug labelled 'D'. Disconnect that wire at the other end where it connects to the lever switch, and reconnect it to the lever switch lug where a red and a green wire from the bridge pu is attached. You can leave the middle/neck tone cap, but short it out with a wire link.
Now you should have the middle knob as a variable bridge split. The splitter should work whenever the full humbucker is engaged. In combos where the switch already splits the bridge pup, it will stay split.
Now heres a variation, which I like in a similar situation on my Les Paul bridge pup. Instead of shorting out that unused middle/neck tone cap, leave it as it is. Now instead of fully shunting one coil, it is shunted through the cap which will give a fuller sound but still with a single coil bite. Its also good with a larger cap, Im using 0.047 instead of 0.022. You could add another 0.022 in parrallel across the old one to get 0.044.
cheers
John
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Post by mr_sooty on Dec 9, 2007 13:52:25 GMT -5
Cool. Here's the thing with that cap though. It's linked through to the bridge tone, so I guess the bridge tone uses the same cap. Do I need to remove it from the neck/middle tone and have it attatched to the bridge tone only? Otherwise I guess if I just leave the capacitor connected to both pots, I'll get that affect you mentioned. I want my bridge single coil to basically sound like a standard strat bridge pickup, so I guess I need to disengage the capasitor from the splitter and connect it to the bridge tone only, right?
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Post by JohnH on Dec 9, 2007 14:33:17 GMT -5
If you only have one cap, then yes. But that diagram shows seperate caps for each tone. Does that mean it is not the right diagram?
John
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Post by mr_sooty on Dec 9, 2007 15:05:17 GMT -5
It does, doesn't it? I guess they designed it with two but then cut corners by linking one. It's definitely the right diagram. One question about the lug labelled 'd', is that a ground wire? The idea is to supply ground right? If this is going to work, how come that tone pot doesn't cut out the pickups it's currently connected to? Do I need to connect that terminal to ground too, so that it's running ground to the red and green wires?
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Post by JohnH on Dec 9, 2007 17:55:45 GMT -5
Saving 10cents on a $X000 guitar! I hope someone got a pay rise for that. You should wire the one cap just like the one in the diagram for the bridge tone control. Then, setting aside the ‘variation’ idea that I mentioned, wire the centre lug of the middle pot to ground (back of its case will do) and move the wire from D that I noted. D is not a directly grounded point, the idea is to connect it to ground through the variable resistance of the pot. That’s what the other description does and is the same as I said. When it was a tone control, it grounds the hot side of pups through the tone pot and then through the cap to ground – which only grounds out the treble (lower frequencies cant get through the cap), giving a treble cut. Now it will ground out just one coil of the Hb, through the ex tone pot, giving a variable coil cut.
John
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Post by mr_sooty on Dec 9, 2007 18:10:09 GMT -5
Awesome, well I'll give it a go today or tomorrow. Fortunately I have a spare guitar, just in case!
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Post by mr_sooty on Dec 10, 2007 2:43:58 GMT -5
Note to self (in case reversal is needed): The white wire from the middle pot used to go to the same point as the orange wire.
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Post by mr_sooty on Dec 10, 2007 3:03:31 GMT -5
OK, done! Gosh it's very satisfying pulling this stuff off. And without a diagram! So I now have a variable split control for the humbucker on the middle knob, and a bridge tone control only on the third knob. Time will tell whether I come to miss having a neck and middle tone, but I probably wont. The thought behind keeping a seperate bridge tone is that my amp is considerably brighter on the dirty channel (where I usually use the bridge PU) than it is on the clean channel (where I usually use the other two PU's) This set up means I can still have my bridge tone backed off a little without having to remember to turn it back up when I go back to clean. It was a tough choice, because master tone would be cool too, but I think I made the right call, especially given that the neck/middle tone really just sucks tone away anyway. So a couple of interesting things to come out of this. The middle knob turns the inner coil down, keeping the outer coil on. The normal switch up position 4 is middle in parrallel with inner coil bridge. Now switch down, knob wound back, I have a 'middle in parrallel with outer bridge coil' option. This option actually has a much better traditional strat 'quack' than the normal position 4. Second interesting point is that because the normal switch up position 4 contains the humbuckers split inner coil, the knob actually turns the bridge pickup off. And because the middle pickup is connected to the same point on the selector in this position, it turns the middle off as well. So I can actually turn the guitar volume down with the splitter knob in this position only. This means I can do that thing you can do with an LP where you turn one of the pickups down and toggle between off and on, although the strat selector is a bit too noisy for this. Also, position two (neck and middle in parrallel is now the same, switch up or down, when the knob is wound back. This is because that position switch down is neck and bridge inner coil in series, in parrallel with the middle. So turning the knob back turns the bridge off and you get the normal position 2. So that's that. Works well, thanks for your help John. Pretty pleased with the results. I love it when the mods work! I always feel more 'connected' to a guitar that I've modded. I'd already done some hardware mods to this guitar too (might do some more) so it's really starting to feel like 'mine'.
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Post by JohnH on Dec 10, 2007 4:42:27 GMT -5
Sooty - thats great, Im glad it worked! I hadn't expected that inner/outer variation to occur, but it seems to have some interesting results.
cheers
John
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Post by mr_sooty on Dec 11, 2007 14:59:02 GMT -5
Another question about this. If I did (hypothetically) want to change it to the 'master tone on pot 2, splitter on pot 3' option, and I was running a ground through pot three, would I have to take off the white wire that currently runs from pot 3 and is soldered across several points of the selector switch? I presume this is connecting with all the points that affect the bridge PU, therefore sending ground would cut out the whole pickup, right? But if I took this wire off, would the selector still select the bridge PU properly?
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Post by mr_sooty on Dec 12, 2007 15:14:01 GMT -5
*Bump* Just trying to draw somebody's attention to the question above.
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