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Post by wolf on Dec 20, 2007 10:34:27 GMT -5
dressner Since all 3 pickups are wired in series you have an "all or nothing" type of circuit. (Like those annoying Christmas light strings of 50 bulbs and then one goes out and the whole thing goes dark).
Since you said you broke a switch arm, just temporarily "jump" the switch contacts with alligator clips. This will eliminate the middle pickup but you still could see if the Neck and Bridge pickups work, individually and in series. If they do, get that replacement switch and solder it in.
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dressner
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Post by dressner on Dec 20, 2007 14:57:29 GMT -5
OK wow. I got the replacement switch in, and it works! The tone knobs don't seem to have an effect, i can hear maybe a tiny amount of change on the bridge PU but its nothing like before. But even without that working it sounds *really freaking* good, heh. I definitely get a higher output with two or three pickups selected, and the more I have on, the more the tone rounds out. I love it! I keep my strat twang and have big humbucker sound at the flick of a switch. I almost don't even miss the tone knobs, I never had it take that much treble off the neck pick up anyway, and the bridge pickup I never used much except for high distortion or a chuck berry-ish vintage clean, where I never took much of the highs off either. And if the bridge tone is too treble-y, adding in the middle or neck usually solves it, and vice versa for the neck. Having the option to use the tone knobs though would be nice, but I can wait til the next string change to fix it. Thanks for all your help guys!
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Post by wolf on Dec 20, 2007 16:53:46 GMT -5
dressner I'm glad you were successful !!! I had a feeling the "all or nothing" series wiring was the problem. I hope you enjoy all those new sounds.
After how many decades, why haven't either Gibson or Fender or both realized something by now: Gibsons tend to sound a little too "fat" sometimes. Wouldn't it be nice to have a coil cut or parallel wiring options? Fenders tend to sound a bit too thin sometimes. Wouldn't it be nice to have a series wiring option for a fuller tone?
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Post by ChrisK on Dec 20, 2007 22:47:08 GMT -5
They have (and had). What, and not force the customer to have to buy another guitar. They do have the Jimmy Page model. It does cost money, but hey, it'$ a Gib$on. They also have the three single coil SGs for aboot a grand. Just a master volume and a master tone, but the missing locations beg for the application of a drill and more pots and switches. I really thought about my HSS All-Mode Caster wiring for one of these (as originally designed for SSS). It's called the S-1 switch and has been available on all Am Dlx and many Am Series guitars. The Tele 4-way switching has been around for some time.
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dressner
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Post by dressner on Dec 21, 2007 0:08:15 GMT -5
so anyone have any ideas why my tone knobs don't work?
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Post by wolf on Dec 21, 2007 0:14:07 GMT -5
Does the volume control work okay? What diagram did you use for wiring the tone controls? (Either post the diagram or state specifically which reply number it is).
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Post by dressner on Dec 21, 2007 0:32:33 GMT -5
I used this diagram except the two green wires i soldered to the left terminal of the second tone pot rather than the right.
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Post by wolf on Dec 21, 2007 2:09:15 GMT -5
It seems to me that the tone controls are not connected to any "hot" lead whatsoever. If the leads going to those pots are all grounds (which I think they are), then the tone controls won't do anything.
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Post by sumgai on Dec 21, 2007 2:50:54 GMT -5
wolf, In the normal scheme of things Fender, the black wires are the hot ones, and the colored wires are (usually) the ground side. But in a series connection, that doesn't matter - except for the bottom pickup in a chain, both sides are hot. (!) Now comes the fun part....... dressner, In order to affect the tone of a pickup, one usually wires a cap, through a pot, between the hot lead and ground. But in a serial connection, we can't do that - taking the middle or upper-most pup in a serial chain, and sending the signal to ground via the cap, we've just bypassed the lower pup(s), for at least some of the frequency spectrum. The results, as you've noted, are less than optimum. If you must have a tone pot somewhere within the chain, here's what you need to do: For controlling only one pickup, connect one side of the pot to the pup's hot lead, the other side (of the pot) to the cap, and the remaining cap lead goes to the pup's negative lead (don't wanna call it ground here, that'd be misleading!) For controlling two pickups with one pot, you simply skip the intervening negative lead-to-hot lead connection, and wire it just noted. FWIW, I am not in favor of such a scheme, due to the loading effects upon the several pickups. Instead, I'd recommend that the optimum course of action would be to institute a Master Tone control. Wire it as normal, in this fashion: 1) remove all three green wires (referring to your latest drawing); 2) connect a jumper from the red wire on the volume pot over to the center terminal of the tone pot; 3) that's all there is to it, you now have a Master Tone control. You may either dispose of the remaining control, or you might use it for something else. Personally, I removed that secondary tone pot on my own axe, and moved the volume and Master Tone pots "down one". That gives me a lot of play room, up in the area formerly occupied by the volume control. But that's just me, you're free to do whatever trips your trigger. HTH sumgai
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Post by dressner on Dec 21, 2007 2:51:24 GMT -5
Well Are the green and black wires both ground? Then the black wires follow the switches and the green ones go to the volume pot as before. Studying the 5 way stock switch and wiring diagrams: - the always on, common terminal from the 5 way is connected to the first terminal of the volume pot
- the middle and/or neck PU is connected to the third terminal of the second tone pot through the 5 way, that terminal is called the "input" on another site.
- the "sweep" or "output" from that pot is connected to the input of the neck tone pot and also to the capacitor which is also connected to common ground.
- the sweep or output from the neck tone pot is connected right back to the neck pickup through the 5 way.
Now I can't completely follow all of that in my head just yet, but according to yet another site, the capacitor has just as much to do with taking off the highs as the pot does in a tone knob, and since there is more than one tone knob and only one capacitor, that it is active in both circuits, the neck active, or the middle/bridge. Now either the labels I have for the different terminals on the pots are either wrong or wrong for this case, or there is something fundamentally that I really don't get about how it all works, or likely a combination of stumbling blocks.
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Post by dressner on Dec 21, 2007 2:52:46 GMT -5
hah missed sumgai's post, going back to read it
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Post by dressner on Dec 21, 2007 3:00:51 GMT -5
A master tone works for me, and then id put all three green wires to ground on top of the volume pot right? And heh now that I've got the necessities out of the way, what CAN I do with free pot? Heh without much trouble that is, as it is painfully obvious, I'm no expert here
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Post by sumgai on Dec 21, 2007 3:18:20 GMT -5
dressner, Eliminate them entirely, they're now as worthless as jubblies on boar hog. Blend pot? (Requires the purchase of another part.) Switch? LED? Output jack? (Make this thing a stereo guitar!) Get rid of it? (Your local hardware store will sell you a plug, probably a chrome one, for less than a buck.) Here's what I did with mine: HTH sumgai
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Post by dressner on Dec 21, 2007 3:41:13 GMT -5
Nice looking axe sumgai. Nice woodgrain. You have the MIA bridge but that doesnt look like a 3 tone sunburst, ive only seen the one or two tone bursts on MIM models, is that a signature model or something? Jimmie Vaughan maybe? And maybe its just the flash, but the dot inlays look decidedly non-fender. And have you tried a different pickguard on it, or do you just like the white? I *love* burst finishes but can't stand white pickguards. I was really blown away how much better mine looked with a tortoiseshell, I get tons of compliments too. Too bad John Mayer did it first And to each his own, your guitar would probably still get a compliment from me on looks even with a pink pickguard ...well maybe not. Enough rambling... as for the options, ill probably just leave it disconnected. Those are neat, but unless I figure something better, ill just leave it be.
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Post by JohnH on Dec 21, 2007 14:19:38 GMT -5
For an all series wiring, I think it would be good to keep the two tone controls. Two tones in this situtaion can be made to act much more usefully independently than in a parallel design. My suggestion would be one for neck and middle, and the other for bridge only.
Wire the bridge tone directly across the bridge pup leads, and the other one, between neck hot and middle ground leads, ie across the series-linked pair of neck+middle.
Heres what to expect:
1. With one pup only, you can set tones indedendently for the bridge pup, without rolling off the neck/middle sounds 2. With bridge plus neck and/or middle, you can roll off the treble contribution of neck/middle, keeping (and enhancing) the bite of the bridge pup. This is like having bridge pup on full, with controllable extra bass from neck and middle. Its unlike parallel wiring of tone controls, where both controls act on both pups 3. With all in series, you are unlikely to want to roll off much overall treble, but if you do, just roll back the bridge tone, or for a different sound, both tones. 4. Theres less overall loading on the pups in series as compared with a master tone, due to the two tone controls being in series. THis will preserve better highs in all-in-series mode 5. The ability to turn one tone completely down, while still getting good treble from the other pups allows some interesting resonant interactions to occur, giving scoops and peaks in response providing different voices for the guitar. This is due to the interactions of pup inductance and tone capacitance when one of the tone controls is at zero.
So basically, all Im saying is, you should try that, cos its cool and no more complex than wiring other tone controls!
cheers
John
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Post by sumgai on Dec 21, 2007 19:10:03 GMT -5
dressner, I've got a tortie scratchplate for it, but I'm about to install a Roland GK-2A pickemup........ figured I'd do the whole ball of wax at the same time. Fender has made the American Deluxe in two-tone sunburst for several years now, and my local GC is still getting them in (from Fender) and hanging them on the wall(s). In addition, this model has MOP dot inlays, that's why you thought they looked 'non-stock'. These features holds true for the Telecaster Am Dlx too, as well as the commensurate models of the P and J basses. At the heart of it, if it's an American Deluxe, and it does not have a custom color finish (special order only), then it's a two-tone sunburst with MOP inlays and the coup de grace, the S1 switching scheme. ;D So far as I know, there are no options on the neck. I've got the "soft V" version, but later editions seem to be equipped with the "standard C" profile. I never have gotten used to the "V", I'm ready to trade it away for something I can play without getting P.O.'ed every time I pick it up..... I once had a Customs Agent (at the Canuckistan border) 'investigate' my axe for what seemed like an eternity........ he finally asked if it was '59 or a '60, and would I mind if he tried it for a few moments! Every where you go, there's yet another guitar player! ;D sumgai
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Post by ChrisK on Dec 22, 2007 12:12:09 GMT -5
In my implementation of the Mike Richardson scheme, I placed a tone control directly across the neck and one directly across the bridge pickups. I agree with the flexibility that this gives, essentially shunting the high frequencies from one pickup while allowing the "flow thru" of those from the other's in the series chain. It's counter-intuitive in that you turn the tone control down to brighten the overall sound of two or more in series. I really like tone controls wired this way when out of phase is used ( which I also use in my MR-based schemes). And, in the MR scheme, when the pickups are in parallel, the tone controls work as "normal" (except that there are two caps so when both are turned down (each has a 0.022 uF cap) , there is the same high frequency cut as a Strat with a single 0.047 uF cap).
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Post by ChrisK on Dec 22, 2007 12:17:52 GMT -5
It depends on the model. Most "traditional" (as in SSS) versions seem to have the "C" profile, but some of the HSS versions have the soft "V". Both of my Am Dlx Strats have the "C", one is the 50th anniversary model and the other is the Oh Shiny! one. I've seen the necks from both on ebay. Internal or external?
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Post by sumgai on Dec 23, 2007 0:06:57 GMT -5
Chris, Internalizing an external. I'm way under the weather, and not moving too swiftly these days. I just got the template cut this afternoon, I'll try to make the final chop (gulp!) into the body tomorrow. Or when I feel up to it. sumgai
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Post by dressner on Dec 31, 2007 3:37:27 GMT -5
OK ive played with my new upgraded beast for quite a bit now, and jesus christ I love it! I dont miss the parallel combos and I love all the different series options. I currently believe with all my being that I own the coolest sounding guitar on the planet.
I do have a couple negatives though, but I'm more than happy to deal with them considering the awesomeness of tone my guitar currently makes.
- My crappy solid state amp that I run into my pc onboard sound card. They cant handle the really variable output volume of 1 pickup, 1x1 pickups, and 1x1x1 pickups. Constant adjustment is needed for proper volume and minimal unwanted distortion. Though I have come to expect and use the distortion my setup gives with a deliberate hard attack.
- Tone Knob position. It is just all is dependent on what pickups I have on at the time for what I need. I guess if I had seven tone knobs I'd never need to bother moving them after tweaking, but currently I leave it on 10 or close to it for all three pickups on, or two at once (even the really freaking neat bridge * neck) but any single pickup does need some high roll off, even the neck. So I can't just switch to any pickup combo and get a decent tone. I am getting to where I know where the knob needs to be for each pickup option, but its still slightly clumsy switching.
Anyway, those are my final observations on a rather drastic but simple rewiring of a stratocaster. On the whole I freaking love it. Thanks for all the help guys.
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Post by JohnH on Dec 31, 2007 15:13:39 GMT -5
Great to hear that your mod worked out well. Just a thought about those issues of levels and the distortion on the SS amp.
There's lots written about how SS amps don't distort as nicely as tube amps, and thats mostly true although there are better and worse examples. But what is definitely bad is the sound of the input stage of an SS being forced to clip unintentionally due to a very large signal - sort of like a nasty tearing sound on the louder transients. Is that what you are getting?. I have heard it myself if I put a three-in-series setting into the 10W practice amp
If so, one approach would be to get a suitable distortion/overdrive pedal between guitar and amp - selected by testing with your guitar. Then the pedal will be the first to clip, in a controlled musical way, and would peg a constant maximum level (set by the pedal volume control) to go into the amp. I don't know what model of pedal would be best, but it would be a great excuse to go play down at the guitar shop.
John
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Post by sumgai on Dec 31, 2007 19:47:27 GMT -5
dressner, That can be solved by soldering a resistor in series with each pickup hot lead. The upside is that you don't change any of the current components, including your new switching scheme; the downside is that you lose a very tiny bit of volume even with just one pup selected. But as you select a second (or third) pup for various combinations, another resistor is inserted into the signal chain, and the overall signal level should remain about the same. I'd start with 4.7KΩ, but be prepared for some testing. Depending on your pickups themselves, you may need to go down as low as 1KΩ, or up as high as 10 times that. At values exceeding 15KΩ or so, I think the benefits of this mod would fall off - too much resistance overall, and the maximum signal level will be too low to drive an amp decently. It'd be like having your volume control set on 8, permanently. Bad berries. To quickly find what value works best, you could simply connect some 10KΩ pots first, and tweak them until all is well. Disconnect them (without disturbing the shaft's position!), read the value across the wiper to terminal you used, and plug in the appropriate resistor. Button 'er up, and it's off to the gig you go! ;D HTH sumgai
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Post by dressner on Jan 2, 2008 0:41:23 GMT -5
In reply to sumgai's post I don't really mind the variable volume, in fact I sort of like it. It's just my setup that kind of has problems with it. But I like kicking it into overdrive persay and getting that bigger series sound. Replying to JohnH: While the amp doesn't give really all that great distorted tones, by itself it doesn't distort at all on the clean channels with my current settings. It's when I take the headphone out on the amp and plug it into the line in on my computer sound card that I get the buzzing on harder attacked notes with multiple pickups on. I'm pretty sure the inferior hardware/software for the line in port on my onboard sound card is compressing the audio. I do that because I play with headphones mostly (paper thin walls and I like my neighbors) and hearing the backing track or metronome or Guitar Pro along with my playing is key. I was considering a small multi-track mixer to take the audio from the pc and amp and listen with headphones from there, but then I wouldn't be able to record with a decent quality. I am also considering buying one of those audio input to USB boxes. Just not sure how to tell how much to spend and if they wouldn't do the same thing. At the moment it's a slight nuisance, and I really can't afford to buy anything to fix it . Eventually I'll probably try one of those USB things.
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Post by dressner on Jun 7, 2008 19:37:24 GMT -5
This is me resurrecting a pretty old thread Thanks to everyone who helped me so much last time, this is the final diagram for what I have wired currently as per all of your help (especially sumgai) I am however now interested in this upgrade that JohnH posted, however I don't really understand how to wire it how he describes. For an all series wiring, I think it would be good to keep the two tone controls. Two tones in this situtaion can be made to act much more usefully independently than in a parallel design. My suggestion would be one for neck and middle, and the other for bridge only. Wire the bridge tone directly across the bridge pup leads, and the other one, between neck hot and middle ground leads, ie across the series-linked pair of neck+middle. Heres what to expect: 1. With one pup only, you can set tones indedendently for the bridge pup, without rolling off the neck/middle sounds 2. With bridge plus neck and/or middle, you can roll off the treble contribution of neck/middle, keeping (and enhancing) the bite of the bridge pup. This is like having bridge pup on full, with controllable extra bass from neck and middle. Its unlike parallel wiring of tone controls, where both controls act on both pups 3. With all in series, you are unlikely to want to roll off much overall treble, but if you do, just roll back the bridge tone, or for a different sound, both tones. 4. Theres less overall loading on the pups in series as compared with a master tone, due to the two tone controls being in series. THis will preserve better highs in all-in-series mode 5. The ability to turn one tone completely down, while still getting good treble from the other pups allows some interesting resonant interactions to occur, giving scoops and peaks in response providing different voices for the guitar. This is due to the interactions of pup inductance and tone capacitance when one of the tone controls is at zero. So basically, all Im saying is, you should try that, cos its cool and no more complex than wiring other tone controls! cheers John If anyone can help, I'd sure appreciate it.
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Post by JohnH on Jun 7, 2008 19:46:56 GMT -5
dressner, good question. WTF was I talking about? I'll see if I can mark it on your diagram....
John
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Post by JohnH on Jun 7, 2008 20:01:11 GMT -5
Try this: cheers John
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Post by dressner on Jun 7, 2008 20:07:17 GMT -5
thanks john, ill give that a try
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Post by ChrisK on Jun 7, 2008 22:14:09 GMT -5
JohnH, Ah! The luxury of a single structure type. However, I see a serious issue with these tone controls. I see opportunity! As I posted; the operation is brighter for a turned- down control (the high freq shunting of the pickup and the high freq bypass for the other two. This is real. Now, this is for a tone directly across each of the the neck and bridge. I don't quite know how the bridging of both the neck and middle will sound, but, the effect may still be backwards for a brighter tone. I might suggest the use of blend pots (NOT PAN pots), that have both a normal and reverse taper element. The appropriate element for the preferred response can be selected as desired. Now, the opportunity: There is an unused terminal on both tone pots. What could be done such that one extreme of the pot effects the aforementioned bypassing, where the other extreme (at the unused terminal) could effect the opposite effect. Perhaps an overall parallel tone cut at one extreme and the other the bypass of just one pickup. Could something be done with a series cap for further high freq enhancement? I'm just wandering aboot the landscape.................. ;D
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Post by JohnH on Jun 7, 2008 23:04:19 GMT -5
Perhaps an overall parallel tone cut at one extreme and the other the bypass of just one pickup. That does work well, I have it on my Dual-sound Strat and one of my LP type axes. In fact, it provides the only sound where I find the tone control to be useful, full bridge in series with the neck, with just the bass component of the neck due to the cap bypass. In this all series case, I think its worth trying as above which is a simple arrangement, to see if the sounds are good. As to intuitivness, it could be that having tried it, one would become familiar with what it does and hence find it intuitive. Or it may be that testing will reveal a different direction. The great thing about these ideas is that they are simple and cheap to try. cheers John
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Post by dressner on Jun 8, 2008 9:37:01 GMT -5
got it wired as suggested, I have the capacitors going from each tone pot to the two switches directly as they reached and it seemed the easiest way.
It works great I think! With all three pickups on, its noticeably brighter, which was my main goal for modifying this at all.
My only problem I still have with it is the tone controls don't have as much of an effect difference from 0 to 10 with multiple pickups on. This is just cause I'm using 250k pots right? Should I replace them with 500k?
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