Upgrade pots, switch worth it?

[morecowbell]

I've got a '06 Squire tele that I mod from time to time.

I've already upgraded the pickups to some GFS alnicos that yielded an immediate improvement in sound. Was thinking about adding a pot/switch upgrade kit from Acme Guitarworks or some other such place. (I've seen kits for as little as $30 if you do the soldering yourself.) I usually play at home through a Tech 21 Trademark 60 at neighborhood-friendly levels. (Loud enough for me, but not so loud the neighbors can hear. Usually.)

What say you all: would new pots and a new switch add much to the sound in a case like this?

[newey]

Better pots have a smoother "feel" as you operate them, and may last longer due to better construction and materials, but should not affect the tone, assuming your replacements are the same specs as the originals. Same is true of the switches.

Better pots are also built to tighter tolerances, so if one of the pots in there now is waaaaay off specs, a new improved one might affect your tone- but that's a distinct longshot.

You'll read a lot of claims for better tone out there in webland. I read someone claiming that using vintage cloth-covered wires improved tone. I'm not biting and neither should you. The human brain is a remarkable thing- people can convince themselves they hear a different, or better, tone after making any kind of changes, particularly when that person has just spent money and time doing it. We have a need to convince ourselves that what we've done is worthwhile, even in the absence of any objective evidence- and sometimes in the face of contrary evidence.

I'd keep my money and keep playing the Squier.

[kuzi16]

id switch out the pots to 500k pots. you think your guitar sounds bright now...


if you are looking for a brighter bell like sound this may be the way to go.

[flateric]

But is that accurate? 90% of guitarists play with vol and tone full on, ie: no resistance setting. At this position 500k will sound the same as 250k, but where the 250k at half or 3/4 on may see more treble reduction compared to a 500k pot in the same position, this is where the perception that 500k pts give a brighter sound comes from. They don't really, they just muffle the treble less when you start to turn them down. You can solder in a tiny cap to the vol pot anyway (0.001 or 0.002uF?) to help prevent this treble roll-off regardless of resistance.
I would only bother to upgrade pots when they were scratching or dirty/noisy. It won't really achieve any improvement in tone.

I am a big fan of GFS pickups though and have used quite a few sets in verious guitar builds.

[andy]

flateric said:

But is that accurate? 90% of guitarists play with vol and tone full on, ie: no resistance setting. At this position 500k will sound the same as 250k, but where the 250k at half or 3/4 on may see more treble reduction compared to a 500k pot in the same position.

Ahhh! Ok, that changes how I was thinking of pot ratings then. I also assumed that 500ks 'let more through'. That puts it in another context altogether, knowing that 'full on' is sort of a bypass. I was also pondering changing to 'better quality' pots to try and squeeze a bit more out of a cheap P-bass, and frankly, I'm glad its not worth the effort! By the looks of the dedicated thread elsewhere, capacitors are more likely to affect the quality of the tone, but I'll wrestle through that one when I feel brave enough!

So in the same vein, is the average bit of wire OK for wiring things up, or is there a most suitable kind? I know the longer runs should be shielded but it's not too much of a worry on shorter bits, but I have used solid copper wire to hook things up in the past. I notice that stock wiring is often multi-strand stuff.

[sumgai]

OOOPS!

Andy, you were correct in nearly every aspect. ♭eric, you've blown it.

In point of fact, even though the signal is at its minimal attenuation while the controls are at 10 (11, if your initials are NT), the parts b]are[/b][/i] still in the circuit, and they must be considered in all calculations regarding output.

Thus, while the volume control at 10 isn't directly in the signal path, it is passing a small part of that signal through it, and out to ground. This occurs because in reality, the volume control is in parallel with the input circuit of the amplifier. That complex parallel circuit is what "loads" the pickup(s), for a fact, there's never been a 100% transfer of energy across a load - there's always some small but measurable loss. Might be less than 1%, and it might be noticible only in some part(s) of the frequency spectrum, but it's there, nonetheless.

Using a 500KΩ pot versus a 250KΩ pot is predicated on the premise that more treble will be realized at the output. Many, if not most, folks deem this to be just right for a humbucker, with its pair of coils already knocking down some treble, but that it's too harsh for single coils......... they're allegedly too bright. (!) Yeah, right..... as if.

I say two things. One, it's a matter of personal preference. Since you're the one paying for it, you get to be the final judge. And two, Leo started his guitar business by using parts from his amplifier assembly bench and parts-bins. The only control value he used for the first 8 or 10 years was 1MΩ, with very, very few exceptions. That's been documented to beat the band, I'll not belabor the point any further. But if you put on your elephant's-memory hat, you'll recall that everyone, I mean absolutely everyone, raves about how the old Fenders (in this case) sound better than anything built since. I have to wonder, how many of those evangelists have tried taking their new guitars and restoring them to original specs?

HTH



sumgai

[sumgai]

andy,

..........
So in the same vein, is the average bit of wire OK for wiring things up, or is there a most suitable kind? I know the longer runs should be shielded but it's not too much of a worry on shorter bits, but I have used solid copper wire to hook things up in the past. I notice that stock wiring is often multi-strand stuff.

Yes, you can use almost anything for wire, stranded or solid, shielded or not, it won't matter. However.......

Stranded is more flexible, making it easier to bend, but it also tends to unbend just when you don't want it to. Solid core is 'more cooperative' in that regard, it pretty much stays where you put it.

Small gauge wiring is OK in a guitar, 26 (pretty small for most hands to work with) will work just fine, 22 is probably the standard size for this kind of work. Often you'll see 20 gauge wire in a guitar, it's cheap and dirt-commonly available.

Shielded cable is unnecessary in any area where the cavity is fully shielded by foil (or paint, or......). It's most cost-effective when used between one cavity and another (for what should now be an obvious reason), or inside of semi-hollow bodies, again for obvious reasons. The short run between a Strat's control cavity and the output jack, that's a questionable benefit, it's so short. But the selector switch of an LP, that's exactly where you need shielded wire, no doubt about it. Two up and one back, that's a tight fit, but Gibson does it, proving that such small shielded cabling does exist. It may take some searching around, but the extra effort will be worth it, every time. (Multi-conductor shielded cable also exists, and is a good idea for this use.)

HTH



sumgai

[morecowbell]

Great feedback. Just what I was looking for.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it sounds like the verdict is that there is not an audible night & day difference between the 250K tone/volume pots that come with the Squire and 250K pots from (trusted aftermarket seller name here)?

What about the selector switch? Does it color the sound? I've also heard people talk about changing out the input jack on import guitars, too. As if that's a given if you want the best sound possible.

My gut tells me that, while you certainly can't go wrong replacing these parts with aftermarket parts, the overall difference in sound for a player in my circumstances is not huge.

However, I bought a Fulltone patch cord and could swear that it makes my guitar sound much more nuanced than do my other, cehaper Fender cables. To the point where I don't even use those cheaper cords any more. But perhaps I just think that because the Fulltone cable cost me $40. (I really do think I hear the difference, though.)

Either way, I'm a sucker for new guitar knowledge, so bring on your two cents worth. Thanks all.

[flateric]

Apologies if I've misinformed you, but I'd like to call another witness to testify - in a blind listening with vol and tone on max the difference in tonal quality is not noticable (to me) whether the pots are 500k or 250k.
There, I've said it. Then again, I can't appreciate the extra tonal quality of a NOS boutique orange drop capacitor plucked from a vintage strat and sold for $43 versus the standard chinese cap costing 10c.

[JohnH]

I think as you increase pot value, there is a point where the slight extra treble becomes insignificant audibly. The lower the resistance and inductance of the pups, the lower this effective limit will be, and it makes sense that single coils, with their lower windings, will give out most of their treble with 250k pots, while humbuckers need 500k. Whether you can hear or care about the little bit extra will depend on lots of factors.

I rewired my LP, which came with 300k pots and 'vintage' type 8k humbucker pups. With some listening using resistors and aligator clips, I found a good improvement going to 500k, but nothing signficant if I went the next step and fully disconnected a tone pot. There was a tiny difference, but not one that I could say would make any difference at all in practice.

Once the optimum tone is achieved, then for every other reason, I would not want to further increase pot value, particularly on volume pots where there are advantages in keeping output impedances no higher than they need to be.

John

[sumgai]

Well, as I've always said, the final arbiter of tone is the one who pays the piper.

I have to agree with both John and ♭eric, the differences are small indeed, and some (most?) folks won't notice them, except under the most ideal conditions.

John, you like to go no higher than 'necessary', and that's fine, perhaps that's why Gibson commissioned such an odd value, 300KΩ..... But for sure, the fact that the controls (as well as the pup itself) interact with the input circuitry of the amp says that there must be a reason why today's guitars use a quarter of yesterday's pot values. I rather suspect it's yet another aspect of the design differences between tubes and solid state. I don't know that, so I am indeed "reaching" a bit here, but I have my suspicions.

mcb, you won't notice any difference in tone between the switches, but you will notice a great difference in the 'feel', as you flick it from one position to another. A better quality one (most of the open frame units) will last a helluva lot longer, too.

HTH


sumgai