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Post by kuzi16 on Feb 3, 2008 17:22:49 GMT -5
on the original guitar nuts site (here) it says: "The ability to put the two coils of the hum-bucker out of phase with each other is even less useful than the ability to put two pickups out of phase with each other. The coils are so close and so similar that you end up with a very weak signal..." can this be (in part) true about single coil pickups as well ? for instance, if i have two p-90 style pickups that are the same make, model and year in one guitar, would putting them out of phase weaken the signal the way its described for hum-buckers on the original guitar nuts site? i realize that the signal from the string (and sound itself) is a wave and the common tones will negate themselves to some extent, and this is what makes the "hollow" sound. I guess the question would be better stated in those terms. Is the sound too hollow when its the same pickup? if the two are placed farther apart would it make much of a difference given the different tones at different points on a string? If they are two very differently wound p-90s (or another "standard" single coil ) would the sound not make enough difference to be noticeable/worth it? opinions are what its all about. what do you think?
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Post by wolf on Feb 3, 2008 18:09:41 GMT -5
Basically, more cancellations will occur the closer 2 pickups are to each other. So the best out of phase sound would be (for example) a "Stratocaster" type guitar with the neck and bridge coils out of phase. (I have done this and it is a pretty good sound without being too thin). Out of phase in series (in my opinion) sounds better than out of phase in parallel.
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Post by jkemmery on Feb 3, 2008 22:36:12 GMT -5
Out of phase in series (in my opinion) sounds better than out of phase in parallel. While I would agree basically with this, if I had to choose between either a series switch (with no phase) or a phase switch (remaining in parallel), I would always choose the phase switch. Also, the effect of reversing the phase of one coil of a humbucker depends on that particular pickup. If both coils are wound identically, then OoP would be very weak. However, with a pickup like the DiMarzio Bluesbucker, the effect is less dramatic and far more useable due to it having one strongly wound coil and another fairly weakly wound coil. I've found that with this pickup, running it in series OoP, the tone changes from a P-90 type tone to that of a "vintage" single coil. Just my 2 pesos.
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Post by ChrisK on Feb 4, 2008 0:45:08 GMT -5
In phase in parallel is the average of the signals from both pickups. This is comprised of the strong fundamental plus the averaged harmonics from both, augmented by the combined/reduced effective inductance of both coils.
Out of phase in parallel is the average of the signals from both pickups, except that one's is reversed. This is comprised of the weak residue fundamental plus the averaged harmonics from both (one set is of course in reverse phase), augmented by the combined/reduced effective inductance of both coils. This setting is weak and often helped by coupling the out of phase pickup to the primary pickup thru a series cap in the neighborhood of 0.01 uF or so.
In phase in series is the sum of the signals from both pickups. This is comprised of the strong fundamental plus the summed harmonics from both, augmented by the combined/increased effective inductance of both coils.
Out of phase in series is the sum of the signals from both pickups, except that one's is reversed. This is comprised of the weak residue fundamental plus the summed harmonics from both (one set is of course in reverse phase), augmented by the combined/increased effective inductance of both coils. This setting is as strong as some single coils, but has a much more hollow and reedy sound.
The out of phase sounds are tonally more interesting if the pickups are differing in characteristics. I find that a Strat with similar pickups in all three positions is much less flexible than one with differing ones such as my PadoukCaster which has a Heavy Blues in the bridge, a Virtual Vintage in the middle, and a Blues in the neck. Likewise, my MIM Nashville Power Telecaster is interesting due to it having a Tele TexMex bridge, a TexMex Strat middle, and a TexMex covered Tele neck pickup. I put a set of Lace Alumitones in the PadoukCaster and the combinations were fairly bland compared to the aforementioned DiMarzio's, which immediately were put back in.
Also of significant importance is the distance between the coils since the harmonic content varies considerably along the string.
So, for maximum effect, you want the coils to be different and you want the signals to be different. Pickup height can have a significant effect as well in OOP.
Some stacked single coil size humbuckers are actually comprised of two coils that are in series OOP along common pole magnets. There is a significant difference between the coils from a signal sensing perspective, but a similar sensing capability from a noise sensing perspective.
For these pickups, removing the weak coil from the signal actually increases the output signal. Some pickups that are like this are the Fender Vintage and Hot Noiseless pickups.
Other stacked single coil size humbuckers are actually comprised of two coils that are in series OOP. There is a similar sensing capability from a noise sensing perspective, but a significant difference between the coils from a signal sensing perspective since one coil (usually the lower one) senses no string signal at all due to there being no pole pieces within.
For these pickups, removing the weak coil from the signal actually increases the output signal. Some pickups that are like this are made by DiMarzio.
In these stacked single coil size humbuckers, connecting the coils in parallel results in a substantially unusable output signal.
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Post by JohnH on Feb 4, 2008 0:54:01 GMT -5
Just as the out of phase combos get more interesting when the pups/coils are different, a similar effect can be had using electrical means to unbalance them, such as blenders and capacitors to partly bypass one coil, so that less of the fundamental note is cancelled. Similar approaches lead to intersting in phase sounds too.
John
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Post by gitpiddler on Feb 4, 2008 2:33:59 GMT -5
The noise is out of phase because the polepieces are opposite polarity in relation to the strings with HB's, with the windings in-phase. Stacks have the same polarity facing the strings for both coils and the windings are out-of-phase, with one providing the signal. Jus my amatuer opinion
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Post by kuzi16 on Feb 4, 2008 11:29:25 GMT -5
Just as the out of phase combos get more interesting when the pups/coils are different, a similar effect can be had using electrical means to unbalance them, such as blenders and capacitors to partly bypass one coil, so that less of the fundamental note is cancelled. Similar approaches lead to interesting in phase sounds too. John so if you had two single coils (again like a p-90) in a Gibson LP with volume and tone on each would be effectively blended and "toned" to make more interesting combos when out of phase. thats a good thought. Chris's point: "The out of phase sounds are tonally more interesting if the pickups are differing in characteristics" has also made me reconsider my plans for my build. Originally i was thinking about two lace alumitone humbucker sized wired in with a volume, tone, and bass cut, as far as knobs go, and a Gibson 3 way switch and a phase switch. with Chris's example of his guitar with the same pups not having too much interesting tonal variation i may have to switch one of the pups out. however, they make a humbucker sized and a single coil sized. apparently they are voiced differently as well. Maybe this is the way to go so that my pickups look like they go together.
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