|
Post by dajosguitars on Apr 4, 2008 17:08:01 GMT -5
I'm trying to put the SCN pickups in a Warmoth Tele and am getting messed up by the green wires (and I suppose the black ones as well) Can anyone tell me how this should be wired up? I've followed schematics from Fender, S.Duncan (4-way switch), and other sources, but can't figure out what to do with the extra wires, and it's not working. Thanks in advance.
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Apr 4, 2008 18:28:44 GMT -5
dajos,
Hi, and welcome to the NutzHouse! ;D
The green wires are strictly for ground - they are connected to the internal shielding, and not any part of the coil assembly.
The black wires are (usually) considered to be the signal Hot (or +), and the colored wires are signal Ground (or -). In some Fenders, those two colors may be reversed, but the idea is the same - it's all one way, or all the other way, no mixing 'em up!
HTH
sumgai
|
|
|
Post by ChrisK on Apr 4, 2008 19:00:11 GMT -5
Seek, and ye shall find. www.fender.com/support/Knock, and the door shall be opened. www.fender.com/support/diagrams/pdf_temp1/telecaster/0101600_02A/SD0101600_02APg2.pdfALL that happens in this wiring design is the changing of the middle switch position from B + N to B * N (a profound waste of an S-1 switch). Fender could just have easily used the 4-way Tele switch (2P4T), but it wouldn't have required the real-time changing of often TWO switches, it wouldn't have been "S-1'pecial", and hence, it would not have been marketable at the "$pecial" price. What's important on the SCN pickups is not the wire color (which has hidden functionality in other pickups), but the shape of the pad that it is soldered to on the pickup. The Tele SCN neck pickup has three pads; one is round and is the signal output, one is triangular and is the signal return (and normally connected to ground - except on the pickup that is elevated to a series structure "on top of" the other pickup), and one is rectangular and is the pickup frame/shield connection (normally connected to ground). The three wires allow phase reversal independent of shield/frame ground. Since the Tele bridge pickup signal return/ground is usually also connected to the bridge for a string ground, one should use the neck pickup for said elevation (and any phase reversal). Note that the standard covered Tele neck pickup already had three connections, but the cover tab was usually jumpered to the neck signal return/ground wire. It is an old trick to separate these and futz aboot with neck. Here is what the SCN pickups looked like in my AmDlx S-1 Strat from Feb04. In essence, you have the roadmap in hand. Just correlate it to the Fender standard 4-way Tele wiring designs. And, don't forget to consider the Baja Tele wiring and Baja Tele modes.
|
|
|
Post by dajosguitars on Apr 4, 2008 22:40:22 GMT -5
Okay, ChrisK... I comprehend about a third of what you're telling me. Actually, the bit about the pads was helpful. Saddly, your Strat photo just looks like a plate of spaghetti to me. The Fender diagrams, which I've looked at for the past few days, all have the S-1 switch, which I'm not using, and apparently there's more than one way to wire up a 4-way switch. Mine is wired thusly... 5 lugs each side, from top to bottom... On the right side: L1 (lug #1) - Hot from lead pickup; L2 - Hot from rhythm pickup, has jumper connecting it to L3 (same side), which then connects to the first lug (input) on the volume control; L4 is empty; L5 has a jumper that connects to L4 on the left side. Now for the left side, again top to bottom... L1 - empty; L2 - Ground from lead pickup (black - sorry, "triangle"), and a jumper that connects to L3, and then runs to the back of the volume pot, where the green "square" wires are connected, along with the ground from the bridge; moving right along... L4 - as mentioned earlier, has a jumper to L5 on the other side.; L5 - has the black ground (triangle) from the neck pickup.
In the 1 position (bridge only), all pickups are on. In the 2 position, all pickups are on. In the 3 position, only the neck pickup is on. In the 4 position, all pickups are on.
In a perfect world, I would like Position 1 to be Bridge only, Position 2 to be bridge/neck in series, Position 3 to be bridge/neck parallel, and Position 4 to be Neck only.
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Apr 5, 2008 3:34:58 GMT -5
dajos, Well, I'm having a spot of trouble, deciphering your textual description. Check me out here, with this re-arranged monograph, and the accompanying diagram: On the right side: L1 - Hot from lead pickup; L2 - Hot from rhythm pickup; L2 - jumper that connects to L3 (same side) L3 - connects to the first lug (input) on the volume control; L4 - empty; L5 - jumper that connects to L4 on the left side. On the left side: L1 - empty; L2 - ground from lead pickup L2 - jumper that connects to L3; L3 - ground; L4 - jumper from L5 (right side); L5 - ground from neck pickup. All of which coughs up: ( EDIT: Problem solved, we can all go home now. See reply #9 below. /edit) Can you take a digital photo, and upload it for us to peruse, please? And by the way, in your perfect world, the answer would be: HTH sumgai
|
|
|
Post by ashcatlt on Apr 5, 2008 8:49:49 GMT -5
sumgai, i think you translated what he wrote perfectly. If so, it's the same as this, which is the same 4-way scheme I've posted here a number of times. As I recall, it freaks you out every time. But it does work if wired per the diagram. dajosguitars - I thought maybe you had some confusion as to which lugs were the commons, but I couldn't come up with anything that would cause it to malfunction the way you describe.
|
|
|
Post by dajosguitars on Apr 5, 2008 9:50:13 GMT -5
sumagi,
You did a fine job of transcribing my jibberish. Basically, that's the same schematic that's posted on the s.duncan website, as well as various other wiring sites, and is identical to the diagram from the link provided by ashcatit (Thanks for that, by the way).
If I were using standard pickups, with a hot and a ground, I could just follow the diagram, but with the extra grounds coming out of the SCN pickups, I wasn't sure (and am still not) where the wires should go.
I guess I shouldn't feel too bad if you people who know what you're doing (and I don't put myself in that category) , can't figure out what's going on either.
Add a photo? You think if can't wire in a simple 4-way switch, I'd be able to figure out how to insert a photo? Actually, it looks just like your diagram...except that you're drawing is a little neater.
Still searching for an answer...
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Apr 5, 2008 11:38:02 GMT -5
dajos, Inserting a photo is not hard, here's how it's done: Posting An ImageThe "extra" grounds from the pickups (green, center solder position, rectangular) all just go to ground, nothing fancy here. Remember, they're the internal shielding leads, so while they aren't absolutely necessary, they do help in cutting down the hum and buzz you might have otherwise. HTH ash, Yes, you're correct, I'm still freaked out over that diagram. Without any labeling, I don't know which lug is supposed to be the common for each pole, so I can't evaluate the thing for viability. WSWHM sumgai
|
|
|
Post by dajosguitars on Apr 5, 2008 12:35:42 GMT -5
Okay...at least that was easier than wiring the switch correctly.
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Apr 6, 2008 1:03:41 GMT -5
Well, that certainly did the trick! I seem to vaguely recall that I had to do the visual translation bit last time too..... must be that danged CRS is settin' in, eh? OK, I've changed my first 'interpretive' diagram, in my post above. With the inclusion of labels, it becomes child's play to dope out the whole enchilada. And to make it even more visual, I've offset the two poles vertically, so that the lugs appear to be spaced out the same as in Real Life ™. Now, all that said, I took a moment to convert my schematic above to a more tactile (hands-on) view of how to connect the dots to get what dajos wants: 1 - B 2 - B * N 3 - B + N 4 - N Discussion:Note the line between the two #1 lugs...... that's merely a simple wiring step to connect the Neck negative lead over to Hot, while the selector is in position 1, Bridge only. Shorting the pickup like this negates a major portion of the hanging hot problem. However, there may be a side effect, discussed by JohnH, here: The Dreaded Tone Sucker. So far, no one has reported back that this design is the pits. Also note: the position numbers in this diagram are opposite that of the schematic above. I laid out that schematic way back when, and I see no compelling reason to change it now. Any questions? ;D HTH sumgai
|
|
|
Post by ashcatlt on Apr 6, 2008 1:29:15 GMT -5
Of course, it had ought to work as is, just not in the exact order he asked for.
I can't seem to get it to malfunction the way dajos is describing. I came close by imagining that the green wires were actually the - side of the pickpups, but that gave me Neck-only in position 4 (bridge pickup shorted). Seems like switching to sumgai's wiring before you figure out what's wrong now will likely end up being the same frustration in a slightly different order.
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Apr 6, 2008 11:42:21 GMT -5
ash, When in doubt, always start from the simplest, most basic position possible. By this I mean, don't add anything else other than what's necessary to make signal flow from ground to the jack's tip. If I were doing the job for dagos, it'd go like this: 1) Set the green wires aside for the moment; 2) The Bridge gets hooked up first: black wire to ground (and the bridgeplate/shielding), and the colored wire to common point on one side of the switch; 3) The Neck's black wire to the common point on the other side of the switch, and the colored wire to the jack's tip terminal; 4) Make the remaining connections as shown in the diagram(s) above; 5) Test! If something fails, I'd start by reviewing my work, not the components themselves: a) Did I put everything on the correct terminals? b) Did I booger up any of the solder joints? c) Did I leave anything touching where it shouldn't, meaning did I create any short circuits? Then I'd double-check the pickups with a meter, and only if there's still a shortcoming at this point would I suspect the switch itself. But I've probably nailed the culprit by now, switches are usually pretty good, right out of the box. If it does work as intended, then I'd connect those pesky green wires (from the central rectangular pads) to ground. After that, and only after all the previous testing has shown that everything works, I'd review my work to see if I could eliminate any extra wires/connections. If I've run two (or more) wires from the switch to the jack's tip, I'd look to see if I could just use a short jumper on the switch itself, and reduce the number of long wires that carry the Hot signal. Ditto for switch connections going to ground - no compelling reason not to use short jumpers, and eliminate extra wires. While this step is not necessary from an electrical standpoint, it does go to the fact that messy wiring usually makes it harder to re-mount the assembly back into my axe. And I would definitely re-test, for obvious reasons! Finally, if my initials were ChrisK, I'd measure all the resistance readings in every switch position, and record them somewhere safe. Should problems occur down the road, that reference point would come in handy! Total time: 15 minutes, tops. 20 if I had to deflect any incoming flak from you-know-who. Now everything should be all set and ready to go. ;D HTH sumgai
|
|
|
Post by ChrisK on Apr 6, 2008 20:27:03 GMT -5
When one forgets the topology of the Tele 4-way switch, remember to take a look at the Tele 4-way switch model. Turn the volume and tone pots fully clockwise. Attach the digital multimeter to the output jack leads. Set it on the 19.99K range if possible and take resistance measurements in all 4 switch positions. Record and post the measurements. Per your definition: Switch toward bridge 1._______ 2._______ 3._______ 4._______ Switch toward neck 20080406 FWIW, I took the control plate off of my My "Proper" Telecopy and verified the connections into my circuit for the pickup wire colors. On the neck; White - signal output - connected to lever switch Black - signal return/ground - connected to lever switch Green - frame ground (connected to signal ground) On the bridge; Yellow - signal output - connected to lever switch Black - signal return/ground (connected to signal ground) Green - frame ground (connected to signal ground) Now, since I'm also doing bridge in series with neck (just like the Tele 4-way does), I don't have the neck black wire grounded, but connected to the 4-way Tele switch. I've never liked calling the black wire on a pickup the ground wire. In many cases, it doesn't HAVE to be connected to ground, but is used for custom configurations such as series and out of phase. In other words, use the black wires from both pickups as the signal returns, and the yellow from the bridge and the white from the neck as the signal outputs, and wire it as if it were just two-wire pickups. After it's working, connect the green leads to the back shell of a pot. If one were to measure the resistance from each wire to the other on each pickup, one would find the following: White/Yellow to Black - 8K to 12K While/Yellow to Green - open/infinite Black to Green - open/infinite
|
|
|
Post by ashcatlt on Apr 7, 2008 6:55:24 GMT -5
Here's a question: Where's your bridge/string ground?
|
|
|
Post by dajosguitars on Apr 7, 2008 7:04:50 GMT -5
When I originally called Fender consumer relations, early on, I called to ask about a string ground, because the diagram that came with the pickups didn't show one. The guy there said that because these had the interneal ground, I didn't need a string ground, but could put one in if I wanted. Now, I've wired Teles before, and I know what they sound like without that string ground, so I put one in under the bidge and ran it to the back of the volume pot (it's the black push-pull cloth wire you see in the pic. And yes, with it disconnected, it's as noisy as you'd expect.
I've not had a chance to work on it for a couple of days, but I'll be sure to let you all know how it turns out.
|
|
|
Post by dajosguitars on Apr 7, 2008 14:08:45 GMT -5
Alrighty, I went back in, de-soldered everything, and started from scratch. I followed the diagram provided by sumgui in reply #9. The results were as follows...
Position 1 (switch towards bridge) - Both pickups on Position 2 - Both pickups on Position 3 - Both pickups on (different tone) Positon 4 (switch towards neck) - Bridge pickup only
I'm following the same vertical orientation as the diagram - that is, the uppermost lug on the diagram is the lug closest to the neck of the guitar, and most distant from the volume pot - it's the lug where the 'hot' bridge wire is going.
Are we ready to chalk this up to a faulty switch? Am I missing something? All of the above?
|
|
|
Post by dajosguitars on Apr 7, 2008 15:52:30 GMT -5
Got it! And I'm glad to say that I figured this out all by my little old self - although I owe you all a major debt of gratitude for the invaluable advice and information - without someone telling me what should be right, I'd have never looked so hard for the real problem. Which was...
The thickness of the top was preventing the switch from clicking completely into the 1 and 4 positions. It was, in effect, doing the in-between thing. I still need to reverse the leads on the pickups as the switching is reversed, but I'm at least getting the pickups to work the way they should.
Again, thanks to all.
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Apr 7, 2008 16:29:34 GMT -5
dajos, You have to admit, the metal plate's thickness isn't usually a culprit in problems of this nature. Most switches are made to mount in that plate without any room for 'slop' which means their handle should be able to move all the way from one end to the other, without any problems. Why yours wouldn't do that, that's a good question. I think that rather than the thickness itself, your problem may be one of the slot being a bit too short, in that direction. If you don't want to buy another plate, try filing the slot a little longer, that should help. And congratulations on conquering your own personal example of Mr. Murphy's friendliness! You are hereby offically inducted into the NutzHouse Inner Circle! ;D sumgai
|
|