P-90's - Opinions

[wolf]

This was a topic on the previous message board and it generated dozens of replies. It seems this pickup has a lot of ardent fans. I have never owned one or even played one. I think someone said in the other message bord that the sound is like the guitar solo in "Signs" by the Five Man Electrical Band.

It is a very old design but still popular.

Okay, what do you have to say?

[GuyaGuy]

yeah, P-90s seemed to have made a comeback. there are more models w/ 'em now than there have been since the 60s. PRS just started their korean-made SE line which includes P-90 models, gibson now offers a LP special and SG w/ P-90s, pickup-makers like duncan and GFS have introduced P-90s that retrofit into HB slots, and i've been seeing 'em more on stage and tv, etc.

they virtually disappeaed in the 70s, when most guitarists started playing HBs and those who didn't, played strat or tele. but in the 60s it was a pretty common pickup, played by the likes of neil young and keith richards, as well as john, paul, AND george! (john played his P-90-equipped casino almost exclusively from the mid-60s till the day he died.)

i think the tone is perfect for anyone who plays blues or jazz but wants the tonal clarity of a single coil. it's mellower and a bit buttery compared to a strat SC. it's also thick in the mid-range, so it may be the best-EQ'd PU out there as it avoids normal SC ping and HB mud. overdriven, their thicker midrange gives em bite rather than fender twang.

AND they're a good buy in the vintage gibson market, as most gibson players prefer HBs!

[StratLover]

I feel that "Guya" has simmed up ALL that needs to be said about P-90's.---;D--- If there is anyhting else to be said about them it will be by those that are not too particularly fond of them...........BUT WHY.------

[erikh]

I love 'em. They are so sweet sounding, especially in semi-hollow bodies. I used to have an SG that came with a P-100 in it, the stacked version. It was a one pickup guitar. Man I loved that guitar. Wish I never sold it. I may have to hunt down another one. I think it was an SG Junior or something.

[Trey]

Nothing sounds better than a P-90 equipped guitar in series, out of phase, thick thick tone!!

[wolf]

Does a P-90 equipped guitar (Gibson Les Paul Double Cutaway for example) have one of the pickups reverse wound and reverse polarity?
The series and out of phase to which you referred would be humbucking if the pickups were identical.
But for series and parallel in phase, you'd need one of the pickups to be RWRP to be humbucking (which I like a lot).

[ChrisK]

P-90's are all that and more. I have one of the PRS SE soapbar guitars and love it. I've thought about adding a middle P-90 ('cuz I can), but the humbucking effect does vary depending on phase.

My solution is to use a least one stacked P-90 (such as the SD P-90 stack) in either the bridge or neck. Then one can choose which coil to use for hum cancelling regardless of phase.

[wolf]

ChrisK
That would be interesting to add another P-90 to make a triple P-90 guitar. If the middle were RWRP, then middle and bridge could be wired as a double coil humbucker (series/parallel) and the neck and bridge could be wired in series and out of phase for the tone to which trey referred. AND of course, there should be single coil options for all three. Sounds like an interesting project.

Also, due to the price difference between the PRS SE and the Gibson Double Cutaway is it worth the extra money for the Gibson or is the PRS the real bargain?

[GuyaGuy]

wolf, i would highly recommend checking out an AGILE double cutaway LP special (aka AD series). my friend got one recently and it's super-nice--good quality mahogony, set neck, not too heavy, well-made, great sound, and comfortable neck. price? how does $250 hit you?! and that's WITH shipping!! don't be put off by the price tag; this is a nice guitar! other brands would put a $600-900 price tag on it. the PUs are ceramic, but with the money you save you on the guitar can invest in some kick-butt alnico pickups and you'll have yourself one suh-WEET LP DC!!
www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/Data4/Agile/AD2200_Junior-01.html
www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/Data4/Agile/AD2500-01.html
www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/Data4/Agile/AD2000-01.html
www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/Data4/Agile/
you can get 'em on ebay or here:
www.rondomusic.net/electricguitar.html

the gibson LP special w/ P-90s that i played seemed nice but not really worth the thousand bucks they're asking. IMHO, gibson still makes some really nice guitars but their less expensive models seem like they consistently lack in quality, especially for the price range.
i played a PRS SE soapbar and i thought it was pretty nice too; i'm just not big on the PRS body style.
both the PRS and agile are made in korea--most likely both are made in the samick factory.

[wolf]

GuyaGuy
Hey, those do look pretty good. Usually, as you mentioned, the inexpensive guitars tend to make me scared about spending $250 for junk. Then again, the reviews (and your own review) seem to be quite positive for the Agile guitars. I was really impressed by this one:
www.rondomusic.net/al2500gold3p90.html
It is a triple P-90 even though they are ceramic P-90's and it is a Les Paul style and not a double cutaway.

As I've mentioned before, pickup descriptions tend to be vague and non-specific. But (dare I ask) what is the difference in sound between the ceramic P-90's and the alnico ones? (Then again, there are alnico II and Alnico V P-90's). Also, were the original P-90's made of alnico? (OR were they made of some metal that can never ever be reproduced ever again and that's why the new ones can never sound like the originals). ;D

[GuyaGuy]

hey, that's exactly what you wanted--3 P-90s in a row! didn't know they had one like that!
yeah, i don't waste my time even picking up an epiphone or ibanez or other brands under $300. you know it ain't gonna be good. but the agiles are really made and the asking prices are ridiculously low. i guess they contract the guitars, then import and sell them exclusively so they can keep their prices LOW!
my friend said his agile's stock ceramic P-90s sounded OK but just didn't have the liveliness of an alnico. (i played it AFTER he put in lollar alnicos.) he compared it to playing a guitar thru a good SS amp--decent but w/out the fullness of a tube amp. but, like i said, the price of the guitar leaves you with enuff left over for some good alnicos!

CERAMIC vs. ALNICO:
well, as you probably know know, ceramic magnets are mostly used either A) to make high-output shredder PUs or B) to save a few pennies on normal stock PUs. the problem with ceramic is that it creates a really bright tone--and not brigh in a good way. i suppose some of this brightness is dampened with the sheer number of coils on high-output shredder PUs. but on "normal" or vintage-style PUs the sound ends up being a bit tinny and flat.
P-90s are unusual in that they have 2 magnets on either side of the polepieces. one has south polarity facing the polepiecess, the other north.
the magnets were originally alnico--almost everything was until companies like alembic into'd ceramics. but in the 50s and 60s gibson apparently used whatever magnets they had or could get. just as vintage fender PUs have a random number of windings, vintage gibsons frequently have random alnico mags--sometimes II sometives III, sometimes V.

as for what P-90 magnets were originally made of...they mined the alnico from a cavern just outside kalamazoo, but it's since been depleted so you can't get that "sweet" tone anymore. plus the magnets were hand-crafted by ALbino NIgerian COmmunists--thus the name ALNICO! ;D
but, seriously, folks...

[StratLover]

For the price, the PRS(tm) is a pretty good bargain in a neck-through guitar, anywhere on the planet.----

A bud of mine has just acquired one and he can't say enough about it.--;D--

Of course we all KNOW that a PRS(tm) guitar is pretty hard to beat period. For around $400.00-$500.00 on the double cut mentioned above. Depending on where or whom you buy it from, that's a savings of over $1000.00 and in most cases a lot more than a Gibson(tm) double cut.

;D ;D ;D---THIS JUST IN---;D ;D ;D

CNN reports that there has just been another ore zone of ALNICO found just north of lake TITICACA in Tibet. But the Tibetan government is disavowing the fact, and is trying to horde ALL of this most precious mineral for themselves. A group of MONKS have developed a new form of high grade ALNICO enriched with uranium308 that makes it possible to remove all tubes cords and effects needed to produce audible sound waves.

;D ;D ;D---HOW BOUT THAT---;D ;D ;D

As far as 3 P-90's, what more could you ask for------If you like BUTTER as much as I do, then you'll know that's the true sound of P-90's is like. There have been attempts to recreate them, but none have come close.

[wolf]

Yes I guess I want the P-90 sound because I think I have explored single coils and humbuckers and feel that the P-90 is a third sound unlike the other 2.

StratLover as you said "There have been attempts to recreate them, but none have come close." Of course !!! No one can ever never ever reproduce the vintage tone that comes from Antarctican Alnico, discovered by Admiral Byrd. The mine closed in 1961 due to the last microgram of Alnico ore being extracted.

As for that Paul Reed Smith P-90 SE I saw something that I don't like. Go to this link:
www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=101/g=home/search/detail/base_pid/519938/

Notice it has that "cheapie" Les Paul Junior type bridge?

Now if you go here:
www.rondomusic.net/al2500gold3p90.html
even the cheaper models have a genuine stop piece AND a real bridge. I think that might make a difference in choosing which is better made.

Incidentally, are P-90's "surface-mounted" with no routing (except for the pickup wire? OR do they have the pickups embedded within the guitar body? (That would be something else to consider. I do NOT like the idea of carving into finished wood. It makes a mess and is usually noticeable).

[Trey]

P-90s are mounted just like Humbuckers, and those wraparound bridges ain't all that bad. All PRS' come with that type of bridge and you don't see many people complaining, a cheap tuneomatic would be much worse for a guitars tone IMHO...

[GuyaGuy]

Trey said:

P-90s are mounted just like Humbuckers, and those wraparound bridges ain't all that bad. All PRS' come with that type of bridge and you don't see many people complaining, a cheap tuneomatic would be much worse for a guitars tone IMHO...

there are the "dog ear" P-90s, though, like on EPI CASINOS, which are top-mounting. on solid bodies they're usually "soapbar" P-90s and mounted like HBs, as Trey said.
StratLover, that PRS is a setneck, not neckthru, and part of a new line of korean-made models called SE (special edition, presumably?) and, wolf, i don't like that bridge either. i like to be able to adjust everything, but everything else on the PRS seemed good quality. parts on the agile are probably noname (except grover tuners) but aren't cheapos at all, but i'll stop pushing em in case you think i'm a sales rep!

;D btw, guys, i just wanna say, stay away from that uranium308-enriched alnico. sounds really muddy and the uranium pulls the strings. it's way overhyped!

[wolf]

Well I figured the P-90 aspect of this has been thoroughly discussed so I thought I'd start a topic in the "Guitars" section:
guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=guitar&action=display&thread=1117554603

[GuyaGuy]

oops!!

i don't know what i was thinking at the time.
the 2 magnets on P-90s have the same polarity facing the polepieces, usually south.
just wanted to clear that up!

[wolf]

trey
When you say that P-90's in series and out-of-phase sound fantastic, are you sure that it is the out-of-phase sound that has the thick tone? To me it seems that series and in phase would have the thickest tone.

[wolf]

Not that I'm cheap (well maybe a little ;D) but I've found a website that sells Kent Armstrong P-90 pickups for $36 each ($38 for the "hot" version).
www.pickupcentral.com/kentarmstrong2.html
They have Alnico V magnets, they can be purchased in cream or black and you can get the RWRP option.
I have read reviews about these pickups and they are generally well-regarded.
So, for about $110 you can get 3 P-90's.

[Trey]

wolf said:

trey
When you say that P-90's in series and out-of-phase sound fantastic, are you sure that it is the out-of-phase sound that has the thick tone? To me it seems that series and in phase would have the thickest tone.

Well, we all know that thick to one person ain't really all that thick to another. To be more clear, the sound I like best from P-90s in reverse phase/in series, YMMV...

I really like the Lollar P-90s BTW. Not cheap($80 each, cheaper than alot of the other big guys) but they sound awesome, better than Fralin's and the SD offerings to my untrainer ears. I'm not familar with the Kent Armstrong P-90s though, so I can't comment on those.

[GuyaGuy]

hey, wolf, you started endorsing KENT ARMSTRONG P-90s and now the price has gone up! ;D

www.pickupcentral.com/kentarmstrong2.html

Trey, i tried the LOLLAR P-90s and i wasn't blown away. a good PU, but it wasn't much different to me than a lot of other P-90s out there. (maybe like wolf i' m just a "little cheap!"

[Runewalker]

I rented the Directors cut of Woodstock the other night to show my kids the decadance of the era, and seminal performances.

I was surprised at how many SGs were being used.

I was also surprised to see Santana's use of an SG, but the big surprise was to see it outfitted with P90s. I am going to have to put a p90 build on the list, prob with some of these exotic wiring scheme discussed here.

But what I am interested in is does anyone have a definite list of recordings where the P90 is dominent and its tonal characteristics clearly heard.

I know all the jazzers in the 50's and 60's used their 175s with P90s, but they don't count here --- tree trunk strings, flat wound, with all the treble rolled off -- it just does not answered the tonal question

I mean clean to overdriven sounds where you can hear the complete tonal characteristics of the P90s.

I am trying to convince a friend that this pup has merit, but have no sonic references.


Thanks
RW

[dinis64]

So what's everybodies favorite P90?

I put a P90 from the bridge position of a Gibson into the neck of my Epi Alleykat. I love it, but I haven't been able to find out for sure if all P90's have the same output. I would think that the bridge would be hotter, but if you go to order one (from Gibson), there's only one P90 (I think). Not seperate pickups for neck and bridge.

I've had some P90's that just seemed to put out way too much treble for my taste. So I've used mainly Gibson because they made it originally, but I know there are some other goods ones out there.

[wolf]

Runewalker
I believe someone said (in the old guitarnuts forum) that the guitar solo in "Signs" by the 5 Man Electrical Band is done with a P-90. (I do not know how verifiable that is though).

[GuyaGuy]

first, just to keep things tidy, i'd suggest postings respones to Runewalker's question about "DEFINITIVE RECORDINGS" here:
guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=guitar&action=display&thread=1118939819&page=1

as for a favorite P-90, dnis64, i've not played enuff to say. the only guitar i've owned w/ P-90s was a YAMAHA SGV-800 with alnico P-90s and they were nice. of ones i've played, i really like the GIBSON dogear PUs on the EPI CASINO. great combination with the hollow jazz sound but just the right balance of smooth and sparkle from the PUs. i'm assuming those dogears are the ones you put on the ALLEYKAT?

[Trey]

I like Lollar's and Fralin's P-90s, both will overwind the bridge to compensate for it's location...

[ChrisK]

I've heard that an adjustable replacement bridge (intonation) is available for PRS. I just don't remember who makes it.

Wolf,

The PRS cost me $390 (GC matched comp). I got the sunburst, it's real nice. The neck is wide (allmost 1 3/4") and fat (thick) which I like. I'll replace the nut (grooved for an Asian width, one could land a plane outside of either E string). Only two pots and a 3-way (which is going to get promoted to a rotary).

The LPS DC I think is around $650. Four pots and a 3-way. Neck is 1 11/16" 'ish and thin. Don't like it, has an unfinished/unrefined feel to it. Frets were rough on the ones that I tried. Body looks like I made/painted it.


I figured that the Soapbar SE was a better investment, especially after Gib$on sues PRS for its obvious infringment on the LPS DC design (I gue$$ that after a "judicial" application of moon$hine, all guitar$ $tart to look identical) [subliminal message intended].

[CheshireCat]

I'm waiting for the EMG-P90. They got all the other ones - EMG-P81, EMG-P85, EMG-P60, and so on - now it's time to get on with it proper.

Think there might be a copyright or trademark issue with the P-90 designation?

Chesh

[UnklMickey]

i just ordered a pair of SD sph90 phat cats for my friend's son. supposedly these will just drop into the openings for the full size humbuckers on his 'paul.

i'll let you know what i think when i get a chance to hear them, but for now:

WOLF,

i agree whole heartedly about that p.o.s. melody maker bridge.

i actually LIKE the wraparound bridge w/o a separate tailstop, but only if it's a LQ badass or other w/ adjustable saddles

fortunately if someone liked the rest of the PRS it would be easy to upgrade to a LQ. but add 75~100 bucks!


BTW guys,

i wasn't convinced on the phat cats, 'til i learned that they've dropped the uranium enriched AlNiCo for plutonium enriched AlNiCo!
this new magnet alloy not only pulls on the strings, but will actually inject energy into the strings and i'll be able to sustain until the cow's come home!

[ChrisK]

Unfortunately, Mexico appropriated lake Titicaca (some centurys ago, perchance), and they control the ore mines (and they're still really miffed about that whole Texas thing). You can forget about any "Texas Special P-90's" made therewith.

This new alloy actually PUSHES on the strings and makes any and all attempts at a low string action virtually impossible. The effect is quantum in nature, and in accordance with the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, one can never discern the string's actual location AND note.

If you're lucky enough to actually pluck a string, you won't know it.

"OK, the coffee break is over, everybody get back on your heads....."