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Post by UnklMickey on Aug 15, 2005 16:22:09 GMT -5
I've heard that an adjustable replacement bridge (intonation) is available for PRS. I just don't remember who makes it. i assume the mounts are the same spacing and diameter as the gibson lp jr and melody maker. if so the Leo Quan badass will drop right in. wish i'd known about it back in the '70s when i had my melody maker modified for a fixed tail stop and a tuna-matic
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Post by wolf on Aug 16, 2005 19:20:38 GMT -5
I'm still assessing the Agile guitar and its 3 P-90 pickups. If nothing else, without even playing the PRS model, I know the Agile guitar is the better buy and the better guitar. Heck, you get 1 more P-90 (and I can use my WolfWire UltraStart mod www.1728.com/guitar2.htm - which I wired in a few weeks ago). Also, the Agile guitar has nice action, a much better bridge, great sustain and costs $250 less.
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Post by UnklMickey on Aug 17, 2005 12:49:43 GMT -5
I'm still assessing the Agile guitar and its 3 P-90 pickups. If nothing else, without even playing the PRS model, I know the Agile guitar is the better buy and the better guitar. Heck, you get 1 more P-90 (and I can use my WolfWire UltraStart mod www.1728.com/guitar2.htm - which I wired in a few weeks ago). Also, the Agile guitar has nice action, a much better bridge, great sustain and costs $250 less. Okay wolf, i'll agree that its like the buy of the century, but a better guitar? man thats a strong statement! obviously it must be pretty sweet for you to say that. if they made a 3pu d.c. model with the crappy bridge that could be replaced with a Leo Quan (there's a great feel you get when bending strings w/o the excess between the bridge and tailstop), i'd be first in line. but i can tell you i've seen first hand (haven't played it though) a PRS. it was like jewelry! the wood was breathtaking and the finish was impeccable. i almost jeamed my creans! we all know looks take a back seat to playability and tone, but it does matter. when you consider the drop-in aspect of a replacement bridge, on paper, the big difference is the extra pickup and the huge difference in price. but unless you've played them both, is it really fair to say the Agile is a better guitar? that said, i'm thrilled that one of us has had a really positive experience! BTW those PhatCats I ordered came in. don't know if i'm gonna give 'em to my friends son or not. i am totally underwhelmed just looking at them! the gold finish is only fair, the slotted screw pole-pieces are raggedy at the slots, and some genius decided that they only need a hot and shield -- no separate wire to the "negative". to top it all off the cover is soldered to the frame so it'll be a pain to re-fit it with 2wire+shield cable! this is the last time i'll EVER order anything made by Seymour Duncan without actually seeing the goods first-hand. i'm at least going to write them and let them know what a disappointment this was. at most i'll return them to the vendor and have them relay a message to SD from me as to where they can put them! i was looking for another way to drop in a fat single coil p-90ish pu into a hb hole and saw a picture of a bill lawrence L-490. thought i'd ask if anyone knew it this was a single coil and if the size was the same as standard hb. couldn't remember the designation so i googled "bill lawrence" and found myself at an entirely different site than the first time! seems there are two guy claiming to be bill lawrence, claims of counterfeiting, and all that stuff - - - OMG!!! - - - what's this all about? do we already have a thread on this?
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Post by Trey on Aug 17, 2005 17:56:05 GMT -5
Unclemikey, Rio Grande also makes a pretty nice humbucker-sized P-90 pup, you might want to check them out.
I think that most of the P-90s your going to find are only going to have a single conductor though...
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Post by wolf on Aug 17, 2005 22:11:02 GMT -5
unklmickeyWell, I think I followed the Message Board rule about postponing a guitar review until it's been in your possession for a while. (The guitar did arrive over 2 months ago). You mentioned that the PRS looks good. Well, I could say the same for the Agile guitar but if I went into any detail I think it would only cause you further irritation. Too bad about your experience with the Seymour Duncan "Phat Cats". You said they don't look good and they aren't made very well. Generally speaking, I prefer DiMarzio pickups to Seymour Duncan but that's just me. For example, I like the look of the DiMarzio X2N humbucker. It looks like a serious humbucker doesn't it?
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Post by UnklMickey on Aug 18, 2005 9:22:38 GMT -5
Trey,
just looked at their site. they seem to have all varieties of p90 type pickups, dog-ear, soapbar, hb size, overwound, cream, black, nickel. just my luck not in gold. (the kid's 'paul is antique white w/ gold hardware.
i do appreciate the thought though -- thanks!
Wolf,
those look more than serious! probably way too much for me. kinda like having an 800hp engine. hard for the average guy to use effectively, but in the right hands...
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 22, 2005 9:16:09 GMT -5
a while back i mentioned the S.D. Phat Cats i purchaced. here's the follow-up:
gave the pup to my friends son and he was thrilled. pointed out the roughness on the screw slots, suggested i might return them for repalcement. not necessary, he thought it was too minor. his 'Paul is configured for simple stock parallel switching, and doesn't plan to change it, so the 1 wire + shield wiring was not an issue.
one of the pair is RWRP so they have noise cancelling (only) when both are one they are WAY bright but not brittle. a little light on the bottom end so they don't get muddy in high gain overdrive use. but a bit hum with just one pup on. the sound when amped clean, hints at fender (more tele than strat), but they sound more balanced than the fender single coils. fits right in with the kid's playing style. long story short - he's thrilled.
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Post by erikh on Sept 22, 2005 14:04:24 GMT -5
I haven't tried the Phat Cats yet but I've heard nothing but good things about them. Lots of folks on the Duncan forum love them, and they're not afraid to be critical about Seymour's stuff. He actually watches the board from time to time.
If you want a pickup to split 4 ways to Sunday, then they're not for you. I like P-90's too, I just don't have a guitar to put any in.
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 22, 2005 14:23:34 GMT -5
I haven't tried the Phat Cats yet but I've heard nothing but good things about them. Lots of folks on the Duncan forum love them, and they're not afraid to be critical about Seymour's stuff. He actually watches the board from time to time. If you want a pickup to split 4 ways to Sunday, then they're not for you. I like P-90's too, I just don't have a guitar to put any in. if you've got an axe w/ full size humbuckers, the phat cat is a drop in. i couldn't get an answer from bill lawrence on whether or not i could get their L-490 (HB size P-90) in gold so i stayed with the phat cat for this app. if i were to retrofit another HB with a P-90, i'd probably try the L-490. i'm not sure but i think it's configured like a P-100.
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Post by erikh on Sept 22, 2005 17:04:32 GMT -5
if you've got an axe w/ full size humbuckers, the phat cat is a drop in. I knew that much about the Phat Cats, and I have several full-size bucker guitars. The only candidate I can think of now for them that I have is my frankenstrat. Right now it's temporarily out of commission until she gets new tuners. They're plain out shot. I just took the Jazz(n) out of it and put it in my LP so there's a JB left in the bridge. Not sure what I'm gonna do with it but I'm also thinking about a Hum-Sing guitar (aka George Lynch style). If not, dual Phat Cats may be an option.
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 22, 2005 22:14:27 GMT -5
.... The only candidate I can think of now for them that I have is my frankenstrat. Right now it's temporarily out of commission until she gets new tuners. They're plain out shot..... unless frankenstrat is worthy of nuthin'-but-the-best, look at the tuners from GFS. under $25 a set. offshore lookalikes for namebrand stuff. bought a set of gold keystones for my friend's son's 'Paul. not quite as well finished as the namebrand stuff but not bad either. this was the ONLY place i could find to get them in gold. grover makes a set with ivory keystones w/ gold works, but none with gold keys.
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Post by erikh on Sept 23, 2005 12:02:08 GMT -5
.... The only candidate I can think of now for them that I have is my frankenstrat. Right now it's temporarily out of commission until she gets new tuners. They're plain out shot..... unless frankenstrat is worthy of nuthin'-but-the-best, look at the tuners from GFS. under $25 a set. offshore lookalikes for namebrand stuff. bought a set of gold keystones for my friend's son's 'Paul. not quite as well finished as the namebrand stuff but not bad either. this was the ONLY place i could find to get them in gold. grover makes a set with ivory keystones w/ gold works, but none with gold keys. She's got Kluson tuners now. I'm looking to get something that is sealed but with the same style buttons. I think Gotoh makes a set, or Grover. It's one of the "G" brands. ;D I'll check out the GFS stuff. Thanks.
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Post by Runewalker on Oct 21, 2005 13:45:51 GMT -5
This thread is a little aged, so maybe this won't be read, but has any done a head to head comparison with the 'soapbar/dog-ear' form factor p-90s vs the standard humbucker sized p-90s?
I wonder if the humbucker sized ones accurately capture the classic 'soapbar/dog-ear' sized P90s.
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Post by UnklMickey on Oct 26, 2005 14:30:48 GMT -5
This thread is a little aged... a little worn and dog-eared?[/b] (ya just hadta know i couldn't resist!) the best first hand info i can give you, has a 20 year gap between the P-90s and PhatCats. mostly useless. seem to remember the P-90s being a little more "growly" in the mids and less bright. the PhatCats seem to be pretty close, with just a hint of "fenderness". but it's pretty suBtle. and thats all i have to say about that. but, i did stumble onto a review of this same topic: www.legendarytones.com/P901.htmso, my friend, you don't walk away completely empty-hand. U.M.
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Post by Runewalker on Oct 29, 2005 19:28:33 GMT -5
Thanks for the link Unk. Nice little review.
RW
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Post by pollyshero on Nov 12, 2005 21:18:01 GMT -5
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Post by Runewalker on Nov 13, 2005 12:04:27 GMT -5
Polly's Hero (Underdog): I am very interested in your review of these pups. Yes the Harmony Central review are mostly positive. I have a couple of questions: Do you have a reference tone in you head (or hands) for the true definitive P90 to compare these to? Can you open the thing up enough to confirm the HC reviewer's comment: "There is NOT a p-90 size coil (wide & flat) inside the housing, but a standard hum bobbin/coil atop 2 alnico magnets...." If it is a standard strat sized single coil then I have to wonder how it replicates the P90 with a more narrow magnetic field. Thanks, and looking forward to your research. RW
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Post by UnklMickey on Nov 13, 2005 16:25:04 GMT -5
...If it is a standard strat sized single coil then I have to wonder how it replicates the P90 with a more narrow magnetic field.. i'm gonna engage in a little useless speculation here. if it really is a strat sized coil, that would make it less authentic sounding, but a big factor in the P-90 sound was the use of two opposed magnets. to be sure, we're all interested to know what these puppies sound like and how they're constructed. at GFS prices, things that sound good, sound even better when your wallet's not flat.
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Post by pollyshero on Nov 13, 2005 18:39:47 GMT -5
AMEN!
The day I bought my Hamer SBA I knew I was gonna probably replace the Duncan Design hb's - I just didn't know what with. I thought about going with the "Pearly Gates" hb's but couldn't bring myself to plunk down the money on what I was sure to be disappointed in. I ain't the Reverend Billy G., and no pickup in the world is gonna make me sound like him - I was afraid that if I went with the signature pickup, I'd be hanging my hopes on the signature sound. So I've hemmed & hawed for about 5 years & this thread got me to thinking about the artists I like that do use P90s and what I liked about their sound.
Answering RuneWalker's question:
It's not so much a tone I'm looking for as a character I'm missing in the Duncan Designs. They sound OK ("buttery", I think is a term most of us are familiar with), but they're very typical of mid-priced hb's. Piercing highs, fairly decent midrange, and mushy to farty lows depending on how much I dig in. They're not well balanced - I can get a good sound on either or, but not on both. And then they just don't inspire me. I guess you could say they're wallflowers.
I'd like an alternative to "butter"... Like, "butter on TOAST" - smooth AND crunchy. Something that sings at high gain, but is a little more raunchy at lower levels.
So that's my hope. I ordered the GFS's yesterday so they should be here by the end of the week. I ain't too pessimistic to admit that my hopes are a little high - it would be nice to be pleasantly surprised. And at that price - well, there's some things you just gotta try.
I'll let you know what's what.
(sorry for the long post... kids are out of town & I'm lonely!)
Cheers
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Post by Runewalker on Nov 14, 2005 0:18:12 GMT -5
Underdog:
I have had a very good experience with GFS alnico open coil humbuckers, the ones that are hotter than their vintage ones (about 12.5K). They are more versatile and articulate than my venerable Gibson, which sings. I frankly find myself playing them more than Gibby (my version of longbeard's Pearly Gates (his LesPaul, not the pups) [thanks for the nod to Texas! --- I've got stories about Billy and Dusty, if I could onlyremember]).
I also have GFS' overwound singles (not the 'premium' ones) and they are surprisinging spanky, spunky and quacky (what a barnyard). The neck especially gets that SRV growl.
I really want to try their p90's and the humbucker sized form factor made me pause. So I am looking forward to your exam.
I want to build up a Jag-instein with 3 P-90s and John H's 3 pup design. 3 - 8.7K P90s in series - stand back, she's gonna blow!.
So if these nail the P90 Mojo I could pretty quickly test it in one of my Strat 'mules' test beds.
But that strat sized single coil bobbin story bothered me. I have some real p90s from 1952 on an ES175, and while it is a travesty to run that baby full bore through a stack, I do and she is one mean @$%&^. I would like the setup in a less prissy dress. so I can misbehave with abandon.
RW
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Post by pollyshero on Nov 22, 2005 2:21:28 GMT -5
Just a quick update 'cause I can't wait... I got the pups installed! GFS Dream 90 I32 replaced Duncan Designed HB101N (neck) and I33 replaced HB102B (bridge). First - the price was right. Guitarfetish shipped quick - I ordered on a Sunday, pups arrived Friday. Well packaged, included bezels and screws. Wiring instructions enclosed & in plain english - easy to understand even for the novice. To answer Runewalker's question (and satisfy my own curiosity) I popped the covers off & had a look inside: CONFIRMED - these are not wound like the old P90's and are in fact a regular sized single coil with two magnets in a hb case. Please forgive the out-of-focus pic; I spend all my spare money on guitar stuff so my photo gear is cheesy... i35.photobucket.com/albums/d186/UDDOG/nkd.jpgIn fairness I must say that they appear to be very well constructed. Usually when you pop a cover off something you bought cheap you see sloppy solder joints & plainly inferior looking components. These look pretty slick to me. Everything lined up & new-looking. Solder joints good. Wiring routed where it looks like it's supposed to go. Before I installed I took the time to shield the pup and control cavities since I was going from a hb to a single coil. I had a small problem fitting the pups, as the shielding reduced the inside dimensions of the cavity... I won't tell exactly how I finally got them in 'cause it'll just make you cringe. But for fun I will say that it did involve a belt sander. Let your imaginations run wild! Everything is working as it should as far as switching - I plugged in & did a "tap test". Got the strings on & it's waiting for a workout but that'll have to wait 'till a more acceptable hour - my neighbors like me, but not that much. I went for the basic black, but when they got here I wasn't too thrilled with the plainness of the package so I swapped out the chrome screws from the DD's. Much better. I'm jamming on the vibe & can't WAIT to crank 'em up for a listen. Here's my baby after her makeover: i35.photobucket.com/albums/d186/UDDOG/S4020270.jpgMore later!
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Post by Trey on Nov 22, 2005 6:19:46 GMT -5
Hmm, wish you could do a side by side of those and true P-90s, I would think those would be lacking something...
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Post by UnklMickey on Nov 22, 2005 12:25:41 GMT -5
underdawg, i wonder if you'll find the same characteristics in those GFSs as the Phat Cats. my guess is you may have the same pup at less than half the price. if you don't remember my post and can resist looking back, lets see what you have to say, and compare. different people describe the same thing a bit differently, but it still might be an interesting exercise. steven kirsting has SC sized pickups with that sort of magnet configuration. (but obviously the magnets are not nearly that wide.) ...I went for the basic black, but when they got here I wasn't too thrilled with the plainness of the package so I swapped out the chrome screws from the DD's. Much better.... those chrome pole-piece screws do make a nice contrast to the black background. i wonder what they would look like with chrome bezels and black mounting screws?
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Post by pollyshero on Nov 22, 2005 14:59:45 GMT -5
Hmmm.. These are wired the same as the Phat Cats (hot/ground only) and yes, the covers are soldered to the base so If I decide to change to two conductor plus shield I'll have the same chore. Unlike the PCs as you describe them, these are well constructed without the shoddy workmanship.
OK - I've PO'd the neighbors. Played through a Blue Voodo 6212. Here's what I think:
Nice blend of LP-like bell tone and single coil bite in the neck and combined positions. Unmistakeable SC sound in the bridge, but not "Strat-like" at all. Neck and combined muddied up when I really spanked it (Not simply playing hard - think "overzealous" to "abuse")
Clean was articulate and well voiced. Chords rang true and clear without notes stepping all over each other. Single notes had character. Same for mild to mid overdrive, with added "bark" from the SC characteristics. They sang pretty good at high gain - not great, but good - better than the Duncan Designed pups I replaced.
Very responsive - They broke up evenly and easily at overdrive settings, but would clean up with a lighter touch. Also responded well to control setting changes both on the amp and guitar. Very tweakable - even minute changes yielded results.
They ARE noisy compared to HBs (I'm glad I went to the trouble to shield everything!), but I was able to control the most annoying of the hum by repositioning myself in relation to the amp. I was in my living room with not many places to go - but I figure If I could get even more distance I'd get even better results. I might have problems in a roomful of shoddy wiring or flourescent lights... We'll see.
Impossible for me to describe the sound, except to say that if you're looking for a true "P90" sound, you would do better to look elsewhere. These are not at all what I expected, but not unpleasantly so. Luckily I was in discovery mode when I ordered them! They produce sounds similar (very similar) to what you may have heard, and at the same time they don't sound like anything you've ever heard. A little mid-rangey, but eq'able. Definite grit - from "squank" to "quack" to "bark" - but I like that. Few if any smooth edges.
I am not displeased or disappointed, nor am I ecstatic - I'd say intrigued. These are pretty friendly - I was able to dial in more than a few very useful tones, and I think these'll be in my arsenal for quite some time. I play a lot of different types of music and these'll fit right in with the 70's classic rock/punkish/ska set. For the money, I think I got a pretty good deal. These'll be useful to me & I'm looking forward to more discovery.
I WOULDN'T recommend them unless you were open to something new. If you're looking to create a signature sound, they might be worth a try if you had an open mind.
If I can find a site to upload some mp3's to I'll do that & you can give a listen, but I'm a little strapped for time these days - getting ready to move from this armpit back home to Texas! It might be a while.
Anyway - comments and questions are welcome. Hopefully this was helpful.
Cheers.
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Post by UnklMickey on Nov 22, 2005 15:46:53 GMT -5
there's enough similarity between what you reported and my previous post (although yours was much more informative) to suspect that the phat cats are constructed the same way. (and you got yours for less than 1/2 price.)
i guess since you P.O.ed the neighbors, the fact that you're moving is a dolby doubly good thing.
i thought since the hurricanes, that part of the country was no longer referred to as the armpit, but as the "bowl". (my sincere condolences to any and all who have been affected by the hurricanes.)
well, i know the phat cats aren't any closer to an authentic P90 sound. i wonder if there is such a thing in a HB sized package. (or better yet a P100 sound ?)
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Post by Runewalker on Nov 22, 2005 23:12:01 GMT -5
UD: "move ...back home to Texas! That's what I'm talkin' about, we welcome back our prodigal sons! BBQ, salsa, TexMex, and Chicken Fried Steak await you. Thanks UD for the extra measure of performing surgery on the cover solder joints. That's going the extra mile. Some big boy mags there, but I was afraid of that strat sized coil story being true. Your comment about pleasing but different.... on the GFS --- actually applies to a lot of their line. The Strat pups I have are not exactly like strats but are musical and worth keeping on their on. The H09-10's are voiced to tones I can not really compare to any other I have, but definitely keepers. You mentioned muddiness in combo. I am considering the P90 -Hum form factor for a 3 pup transplant into a Stat mule using John H's three pup design, but would have concerns if even in parallel combos, they became muddy. Could you clarify what you found with both pups engaged? Is the Neck alone also 'muddy?' And thanks again for taking the plunge and the quality review. I have wondered for a year about these. Albeit I would really like it if they nailed a real P90 sound. I just hate taking out the router for those soapbars. RW
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Post by pollyshero on Nov 24, 2005 1:39:53 GMT -5
Taquerias # 1-24, County Line Cafe in SA, and RUDY'S Yay! Actually I'll be settling in your neck of the hill country, in or very near New Braunfels. Looking for that perfect doublewide on an acre or two outside the FEMA flood zone!
Hmmm.. How to describe what I mean when I say "muddy"... To me, it's a loss of definition of individual notes in the chord. 2 and 3 notes are good to go - 4 starts to lose definition. I mean, I can hear the chord - but it's not "all there". Example - James Gang's "Walk Away". In the intro, you can hear every note in the chord Joe's playing. With the old Duncan Designs, I couldn't even get close. The new pups are almost there, but the bottom is too prominent - not enough of the higher notes coming through.
I'm keeping in mind that: A) The Hamer's never been set up properly - just a factory setup I've been banging on since I've had the guitar. B) I finished installing the pups at 2 in the morning, woke up about ten the next day & started wanking out whatever came to mind. C) I ain't Joe Walsh. D) Joe's playing a Tele on that song, not a Korean import through a Crate amp.
I got on it again yesterday afternoon & spent some quality time & I have to say the more exposure I get to these pups the more I like them. I still won't recommend them if you're looking for a specific sound - but I will say that there's quite a bit there for the money.
I'm in SA right now with my kids for Thanksgiving (I-10 was BRUTAL through Houston today), but once I get home I'll do a little recording. Even if I can't find a place to upload, I can email an mp3 & you can give a listen.
HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL!!
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Post by Trey on Nov 24, 2005 8:57:20 GMT -5
Adjust the height of the pole peices to add a litte clarity. Lower to bass side peices a hair and raise the treble side a little.
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Post by pollyshero on Nov 24, 2005 12:16:55 GMT -5
Life is hard. It's harder if.... HEY! That's not supposed to apply to ME!
Thanks Trey.
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Post by Runewalker on Nov 24, 2005 22:48:35 GMT -5
New Braunfels....alright. Oma's smokehouse, of course Rudy's, sauage (goes without saying) and the fighting brother and sister in Lockhart (ok thats a little dirve) for smoked meats, no sides, no sause.
Just got back tonight from a Turkey Day pot luck in Greene on the Guadalupe. River's down because rain is down, but that is supposed to correct some this weekend. Too full to stop at Rudy's or Oma's but drove past them both. Welcome back!!!
Glad Trey mentioned some fine tuning on the pup height and poles.
These sound like a fun set to explore. However, I am planning on only one P90 build so it needs an authentic P90 sound, and from your description, these have merit, just don't expect classic P90 tones.
A humbucker form factor would sure make things easier. Otherwise it looks like a body build and rout job.
Maybe there are other canidates in the humbucker form factor that nail the p90 sound, but I have not seen any quality review that assess this dimention. Duncan, and Kent Armstrong have this form factor as well.
RW
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