TV Jones TV'tron Plus Pickup

[leadfingers]

Folks,


I am considering getting the TV Jones TV'tron Plus Pickup or the regular TV Jones TV'tron Pickup for my guitar. I have a Ibanez AG85trd with two humbuckers. They can range from clean to a bit of a growl. As well, depending on what amp I use, they can be really clean or a good distortion.

I have been having an urge for a Gretsch/Brian Setzer type sound and came across these on the Stewart-McDonald website. They are $125 for each.

So I guess I have two questions:

1. Just how difficult is it to replace pups in a Arch top type body. The only access is the holes that would be left by the original pups and the two F holes.

2. Is anyone familiar with these pups and would they get me closer to the sound I am looking for, Brian Setzer type tone?


Thanks,

Andy S.

[UnklMickey]

hi Leadfingers,


Welcome to GN2


sorry i can't help you with any information about those pups.

i hope some of our other members can.


one thing i can do for you, is to tell you about the fact that something similar is available, at a really affordable price.


store.guitarfetish.com/vintagestyle.html



these guys don't put their pups in pretty jewel boxes, but in general, it's standard quality merchandise for nice prices.



unk

[mlrpa]

While I'm not familar with the pickups, I am familar with changing them in a hollow body. Expect to curse. A lot of cursing.
If it's a single volume and tone, w/a 3 way switch near the f hole, it's not too bad. Remove the nut holding the switch, tie a string to the switch, and feed it thru the f hole. Remove the p/u's, solder, then reverse the process. Pull the string, renut the switch, and breath a sigh of relief

If it's 2 vol/2 tones, remove the knobs, fit the finger in the f holes to hold the pots when to take the nuts off, tie a string or dental floss to the pots , and feed them thru the f hole. (Said you were gonna curse.)
Do the solder thing, then remove the pickups. the second part of the cursing comes when you try to fish the p/u wires to the pots thru the f hole. Solder, pull strings, rinse, repeat.

[UnklMickey]

Mlrpa,

reading your reply makes me think of the guys that build ships in a bottle.

this probably isn't nearly as precarious an operation as some of theirs, but no doubt many of the same concepts apply.


nice short-course you gave here. any links to more in-depth articles on this?



unk

[mlrpa]

I speak from experience unk. From a ES330, a Harmony Hollow body with 3 P90 clones, to the absolute worst to do that kind of repair on, a 1967 Danelectro Coral Longhorn 12 string. All the pots, 5 of them, were soldered to a copper plate! Pain in the (Insert body part here.). This is the only link I found, and it doesn't say much.
www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/ElectronicsRepair.htm

[leadfingers]

Unklmicky,

Too cool! I checked out the site and MAN! Decisions decisions!! Thanks for the heads up on that. I agree, I don't need pretty little boxes, just good merchandise. Now to make the decision on which one! And the prices are sooo much nicer, too!


And to Mirpa, Thanks for the reply. Yeh, I read in one of my books the thing about tying the strings or dental floss. I was hoping there was some easy way. I guess not. I suppose that's the price one pays for doing hollow body stuff, huh? I have hemostats and long "grabber" tools from my work stuff, so perhaps that may ease some of the pain. I'll just make sure my two kids aren't around so they can't hear me muttering obscenities under my breath!

Thanks again!

Andy S.

[UnklMickey]

Mlrpa,

i agree that link is quite lean. even without "twenty-seven 8 x 10 colored glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one", your post was quite informative.



good plan, Andy. keep the kids away, at least the first time. and make sure you have a spare to play. that way you won't have any reason to rush.

[leadfingers]

Ok guys.....here goes! GFS has a eBay store so I bid on one each of the bridge & neck position of the Nashville over-wound pups. There's one day left so I may get lucky & get them for $29 each + S&H. So that would be a few bucks more saved.

The reviews on Harmony-Central for those specific pups were all positive. I'm clearing space on my work table in the basement, pulling the repair books out for reference and getting psyched up to perform "The Task"!

I usually enjoy working on my guitars but I can see where fishing stuff through the f-holes or the P.U. holes and such can add to major frustration...ah well.

I'll let you all know how it goes and how they sound as soon as I get them in and fired up.

Unklmickey, thanks again for pointing out that web site.
So far, this is two for two on getting good info on my guitars.

Here's hoping I'll have the pups in a few days, have them installed in a couple more days and then post a review, hopefully positive!

Later!

Andy S.

[mlrpa]

You know, you could cheat, and snip the wire near the P/U, and solder that way. A LOT quicker, and easier on the kids ears! (Not as pretty, and there will be a bit of rattle.)

[UnklMickey]

You know, you could cheat, and snip the wire near the P/U, and solder that way

hey, that's spawning some ideas. maybe something like a mini-molex connector just the right distance away so the cabling can be plugged in before mount the pup but the connector won't be laying against anything?

i think if you guys can figure how to work out the detail, you might be onto something slick here.



unk

[leadfingers]

"hey, that's spawning some ideas. maybe something like a mini-molex connector just the right distance away so the cabling can be plugged in before mount the pup but the connector won't be laying against anything?"

Don't think that hadn't crossed my mind. Switchcraft has some 1/8 in. male & female connectors. If the cabling is just conductor and a shield.......hey, ya never know! But I think the manufacturers (Gibson, Gretsch, Ibanez, etc) would've already tried that if it was workable. Stay tuned for results!

Andy S.

[UnklMickey]

leadfingers said:

...But I think the manufacturers (Gibson, Gretsch, Ibanez, etc) would've already tried that if it was workable. ...

well..................it would cost more. they only assemble the guitar once. they probably have some slick techniques for assembling them......................maybe, it's workable, but maybe it's still cheaper to do it the way they have been.

regardless of how you do it, this will be an adventure. be patient and keep us posted.

unk

[Runewalker]

On the concept of changing the pups in a hollow or semi hollow body ----

A recent trip to the Gibson factory in Memphis (where they make the ES series guitars) opened my eyes a bit on this. As Mirpa notes, and as I have done, you certainly could perform manipulations and advanace yoga positions by trying to install through the f-holes. However watching the luthier wire the harness and place the electronics in the body was instructive. They did everything through the jack hole and the bridge pup hole. Never really messed with the f-holes, which are easy to fungle-up with wires and tools.

They had cool bent wire tools fashioned there, not bought. One had a male jack head attached to the wire. They merely weaved the guide wire through the jack hole to the bridge hole, pluged into the female jack of the harness, pulled the harness through gingerly, then manipulated the pot shafts into position with another bent wire from the bridge position. The second wire sort of held the pot, but was easily released. Of course they do it all day everyday, so they were fast, but I kept looking for the f-hole manipulations, because I did one a long time ago and I remember messing with and cussin' that tiny space.

For them, the f-holes seemed sacred, and untouched.

Removal would be the opposite process. The little homemade jack puller tool was so simple, so obvious (why didn't I think of that) and made short work of things.

Remember if you are working on a true hollow body it is easier with this approach, because the work I witnessesed was on a 335 with the sustain block gooping things up.

Note howerver, they were working with the simple conventional Gibson wiring, not some of the NASA schemes articulated on this board. Their main technique was to build the harness so that it formed a daisy chain, and ensure the wiring and conncections could handle the pulling and manipulation.

Doesn't this part of the thread belong in the luthier section?

RW

[leadfingers]

Runewalker,
"Doesn't this part of the thread belong in the luthier section?"

Probably, but it was good hearing that from you. That sounds like the easiest route to go. And since I am replacing both pickups, it would only make sense to try to follow the same wiring convention and pull the whole chain out. Your comments & suggestions are really appreciated.

Andy S.

[eljib]

I'm really interested to hear how this goes, since I've got a semi that I want to get a little more "gretchy" but have been too afraid to scratch up. Keep us posted!

Also, good call on those GFS pups. Every kind I've tried so far has been at least a 9 out of 10 for sound quality, and 50 out of 10 for their quality/cost ratio. I haven't tried the ones you're bidding on, but I'm sure you'll love 'em.

-Aaron

[wolf]

Unklmickey
Your link for www.guitarfetish.com made me curious and so I checked them out. I did a lot of websurfing to see if I could find Alnico P-90 pickups and it seems that GFS are the best for the money. I ordered 2 and after I've had some time to evaluate these, I'll let you folks know how they sound.

[UnklMickey]

wolf said:

....I ordered 2 and after I've had some time to evaluate these, I'll let you folks know how they sound.

i'm sure that will be useful to all of us.

since you have been using P-90s in other guitar(s), you will be able to compare them directly.

i'm also curious about their construction, if they are the same size coil bobbins, magnet layout, and baseplate as traditional P-90s.

you can expect lots of reads on that post.


unk

[leadfingers]

OK Folks....the GFS pickups are in !!!! Literally! ;D

First of all, Ibanez had the two humbuckers wired a bit odd. If I turned down one volume control all the way, both would turn off. I got the schematic from Guitarnuts web site and rewired the new ones that way. Works much nicer.

Ok, first , the tone. I still have to make minor adjustments to the height of the pups. My daughter had just gone to bed so I couldn't experiment too much. But, the initial results are positive. Definitely stronger than the Ibanez pups. Very pleased with the overall tone, too. A bit more...."Gretsch" sounding, but now has that edge to it , too. Not QUITE like Setzer, but a whole lot better than it was. Very happy.

The cost of the pups were $29 a piece. Usually $37.95 (if memory serves me right) GFS has an ebay store and he was running an auction starting at $29 each. No one else bid. So $58 for 2 plus $7.95 shipping. Can't beat that with a hammer! ;D

Second, appearance. I think they look good. Look like a hybrid between a humbucker and a Hilotron (spelling?)

Third, fit. They fit perfectly. No modification at all.

Ok, here it comes.....INSTALLATION!!!

OK, if you were following this thread, you may remember they were going into a archtop.
Removing the originals was a cakewalk. Rewiring was not too difficult. The leads were only about 6 in. so I felt the need to add just a bit of extra wire on the neck pup.

Reinstalling was.........oh, a learning experience. I used string attached to the pots to try to pull them back through. Only problem, the strings got crossed when I was doing the soldering. Lesson learned....keep track of the pattern and , yeh, after about an hour, I took a break till my daughter (11 years old) went upstairs to get ready for bed. Waited for her to leave just in case......

I just kept my cool, carefully got everything back in and tested it. COOL! Only issue is I just can't reach the wire harness and reattach it to the little metal strap inside the body. You can still see the harness through the lower F-hole.

All in all, very pleased with the purchase and how it turned out. If I were to do it again....I would check the cost of having a professional guitar tech do it, just for the harness work.

I may go to Memphis this summer and visit the Gibson plant as mentioned earlier and see about those hand made tools.........not that I'm gonna do this in the immediate future, but it would be way cool to visit the plant anyway!

Overall , I'd give the whole experience an A on a scale A thru F.

And I want to thank you guys again for the heads up on GFS and the tips on installing them. I saved some money and learned a lot! Really appreciate you guys!

Andy S.

[Runewalker]

Great to hear about a success on the pups, both installation and sound.

I am always surprised the GFSs sound as good as they do. The whole pickup science seems unnecessarily obtuse, since the number of components in them is meager. Should be readily repeatable --- wire guage, turns, bobbin size, magnet metallurgy --- until you get into the exotics --- stacked singles, etc.

However, I have also pulled plenty of bad sounding pups, so apparently the recipe is not universally followed. His sound good, but not usually precisely like the ones he is replacing. His singles sound "straty" but not exactly like a Fender set. His Alnico overwounds -hums sound musical, creamy and have good soar, but I have not found majors they sound like. I think it was Polly's guy that reviewed the Humbucker form factor P90s and also said they were musical, but not really nailing a P-90 sound. Your review is in the same vein. Certainly it is difficult to complain about a pup that sounds good. However, there are builds where I am trying to specifically obtain a pure strat, LP or Gretch sound, but don't want to pay the name premium.

GFS outsources their manufacturing offshore and they are a marketing and distribution front. So they have taken the formulas and obtain some economies of scale and foreign labor cost controls to still make margin at approx half to 1/3 the price of the majors.

I miss the days when Jay auctioned one a week of each line with no reserve. I picked-up (pun) my share of $10 -$15 Alnico Humbuckers. But he now has a minimum price. I wrote him once after someone paid more on an auction than they could have bought them at his store or as 'buy-it-nows'. We chuckled at that, and I whined about his minimums. He said he just got tired of selling below cost. So apparently his buy cost is in the $15 range for -hums.

Here is another guy that looks like he is using Jays outsource mfg:

stores.ebay.com/EZRA-music_Tonerider-Pickups-Strat-Tele_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ13QQftidZ2QQtZkm

Products and prices are similar, albeit he emphasizes using Alnico III and IV in some of his lines, which are a little infrequent. Most of what you see are Alnico II, V or Ceramics.


And Wolf, I am definitely interested in your GFS P90 eval. He has several and multiples in the soapbar form factor. I believe he makes one line that has a RWRP version, and one line without. Which did you select?

....I used string attached to the pots to try to pull them back through....

...and visit the Gibson plant as mentioned earlier and see about those hand made tools...

There was not much to those wire tools, I think that was part of my surprise. Just 2 wires (diameter of 10 or 12 guage house electric wire, and harder than copper, but still malleable) about 20" long. One had a male 1/4 jack soldered on it that connected to the guitar's swichcraft, then pulled the harness through from the jack hole. So they used a "string" as well, just a bit more rigid. The other wire was used as a extender to position pots.

Bent wire. Go figure. Sure justifies $5000 grand for a flame-top, eh?

[mlrpa]

Congrats on passing the "Re-wiring an archtop" portion of your test as a guitar nut! And the Nashvilles sound that good? Cool. I'm thinking about the "Dream 180" set for my SG Elite. Let me know how the "LOUD" amp test goes.

[sumgai]

RW,

......
Bent wire. Go figure. Sure justifies $5000 grand for a flame-top, eh?

That's a lot of moolah for anything, flame top or otherwise!


sumgai

[Runewalker]

sumgai said:

RW,

......
Bent wire. Go figure. Sure justifies $5000 grand for a flame-top, eh?

That's a lot of moolah for anything, flame top or otherwise!


sumgai

Yeah, in unreal life I do a lot of finacial budgeting and forcasting, which in the world of accounting is renegrade because we deal with projections, estimates and assumptions. So I like to tell the accountants, who live to reconcile to the penny, that numbers are a lot more fun when you make 'em up.

$5000 or $5,000,000 I still can't afford either a Gibby or the girl of my dreams.

However, the joke's not quite as funny after explaining it. Probably the material. Good catch though.

RW

[sumgai]

RW,

"Making up numbers is so much more fun!"

Have to loller at that. I've worked with some circuit designers that do that, too. Makes for interesting times, trying to persuade them that the real world is not ideal, and parts are not made to their unique order.


sumgai

[leadfingers]

Ok Folks,

I just got back from practice. And I got to play the new pups quite a bit louder. I use a Johnson J-Station, using a Peavey Classic 30 (run the signal through the effects return line to avoid the preamp) as a monitor and the extra signal goes to the FOH.

I am Extremely happy with the tones I can get from these guys! ;D I can get a nice, clean almost jazzy sound. I can get a sweet Twang. I can get REAL close to Setzers tones on Stray Cat strut and Rock this town.

Using a Mesa Boogie emulated sound, I got some real sweet distortion but clean enough for some chords.

And the sustain...!! Man oh man!! For the price I paid!($29 each + 7.95 s/h)
Even had I paid the regular $37.95 each, these things are VERY nice pickups! Did I mention I was extremely happy with the tones?

A couple of weeks ago I put some D'Addario half-rounds on and now the new pups. This guitar is now my current favorite....even over my American Standard Strat or my Dean Evo special select. Did I mention I was EXTREMELY happy with the tones!! HA!! ;D ;D

I don't know what else to say but.........SUHWHEEET!

Andy S.

[UnklMickey]

just one question, Andy:

are you happy with the tones?




unk

[ChrisK]

I saw a trick somewhere about (lightly) gluing the lock washers to the pots and jacks (any part that resides inside).

Also, make a whole hole mock-up board out of 1/8" whatever that mimics the hole pattern of the guitar's control surface, mount all components thereon (use the correct side, Sparky!), and wire away.

I've often wanted to use (Molex for lack of proper name) connectors for wiring. EMG uses some, and others must as well. One WOULD have to use latching connectors to avoid excessive "French" down the road (WHEN it becomes disconnected).

The bridge PU is indeed the portal of choice (brain surgery thru the mouth rather than the nostrils!).


I first tried rewiring a Radio Shack (!really!, $50) 335 copy back in the late 60's. My father took it from me until I promised to stop screaming (I was way past cursing and never did get it done right).


Fish away.

[leadfingers]

chrisk said:

I saw a trick somewhere about (lightly) gluing the lock washers to the pots and jacks (any part that resides inside).

Also, make a whole hole mock-up board out of 1/8" whatever that mimics the hole pattern of the guitar's control surface, mount all components thereon (use the correct side, Sparky!), and wire away.

I've often wanted to use (Molex for lack of proper name) connectors for wiring. EMG uses some, and others must as well. The bridge PU is indeed the portal of choice (brain surgery thru the mouth rather than the nostrils!).
.

That's interesting....those were some of the same thoughts that flashed through my mind AFTER I was trying to put everything back in ! HA! There I was, dropping the lock washers on two of the pots, wishing I had used a touch of stick putty or something.

Then , after I got the wires a bit crossed and they got in the way of the pots going in the holes, wishing I had laid it out in a pattern close to the holes so the wires would lay down nicely! HAR!

hindsight is 20/20!

I may go back in to change the pots. They are definitely log taper pots, not linear. Anybody have any thoughts on swapping them out for linear pots. Seems the log taper cuts down the volume right away , then slowly cuts it down. Thinking the linear may be a smoother transition.

Thoughts or comments welcome!

Andy S.

p.s. Oh, and did I mention that I was happy with the tones?

[UnklMickey]

leadfingers said:

..... I may go back in to change the pots. They are definitely log taper pots, not linear. Anybody have any thoughts on swapping them out for linear pots. Seems the log taper cuts down the volume right away , then slowly cuts it down. Thinking the linear may be a smoother transition. ....

linears will give you much more movement from 5 to 10 with only a slight (~3dB) reduction in volume. even at 3, the volume will not be all much that reduced from max.

this might be what you're looking for.

my advice: try some (or even just 1) in a guitar that's easy to work on first. then, if you like what they do, put them in your archtop.



Andy, other than the issues with the volume controls, how do you like the pups? are you happy with the tones? lol


unk

[Runewalker]

Posted by ChrisK on Yesterday at 11:03am: I've often wanted to use (Molex for lack of proper name) connectors for wiring. EMG uses some, and others must as well. One WOULD have to use latching connectors to avoid excessive "French" down the road (WHEN it becomes disconnected).

I've used the smallest 'quick connectors' I could find on a number of strat style builds. Especially handy on proto-builds, or test mules for pups. But --- can't figure a way to thread them through the wire channel on back routed chassis'. Wish I could in this prototyping process, the solder-unsolder-resolder process gets old.

Posted by leadfingers on Yesterday at 9:36pm ..... may go back in to change the pots. They are definitely log taper pots, not linear. Anybody have any thoughts on swapping them out for linear pots. Seems the log taper cuts down the volume right away , then slowly cuts it down. Thinking the linear may be a smoother transition.

Thoughts or comments welcome!

Well, it is heresy for many but I build my personal rides with linear tone controls, and do so for others unless instructed otherwise.

I find it gives the pilot a finer level of control over a larger arc. The tone pot, for me, is an adjustment of last resort, so I like to roll the least amount possible and still get where I need to. I find that easier with a linear pot.

I have toyed with it in volumes but have not committed, with the exception of JH's blender, which is a surgically altered linear dually, nad works great.

I'll go with Unk though on advising trying this on something easier to re-do if you don't like it.

What I wish you could do is specify the log curve. On the volume a linear seems, as unk describes, not enought influence over a long arc, whereas the log pot seem too much. Like Goldilocks, I want it "just right."

just right RW