Diff between Neck & bridge Humbuckers

[leadfingers]

Folks,

I recently replaced my Ibanez stock humbuckers on my AG85trd with some GFS Pups. ( Love 'em!) ;D I gave the Ibanez pups to a kid at church. He's building his own guitar. He asked me what the difference was in the neck vs bridge, other than how they are positioned (screws closer to the bridge, etc..) I am not sure on the windings and magnet strength or anything else.

I told him I thought the bridge was a bit hotter due to the vibration of the strings being a bit less since they are closer to the bridge. I wasn't sure but that's what I told him.

He wanted to know if the bridge pup would work OK in the neck position if it is turned around with the screws on the side nearest the fretboard.

So, what's the lowdown ? Was I remotely close or totally in left field?

Thanks in advance.

Andy S.

[Ripper]

Hey leadfingers...
Bridge pups as a rule are always a little hotter then the middle or neck. The neck usually is a little less powerful, or as they say has less output. You are correct about the reason. Since the bridge pup is near the bridge ( No duh! ) hehe! ...the strings have a sharper more precise sound, that why its great for leads. When you get to the neck pup youre further down on the strings and you get a more mellow laid back tone. You can exchange bridge pups for neck pups and vice-versa, theres no reason why you cant. Its just that you usually want a higher output pup for leads. I hope this helps you a little!

[Runewalker]

In addition to Deep's comments about higher output pups being targeted to the bridge due to less string amplitude in osculation, modern pups typically have longer pole to pole spacing at the bridge, opposed to the neck. You can measure, or even just look, at the string spacing at the bridge compared to the neck and see the bridge string spacing is wider. Modern pups address this in their respective geometries.

RW

[Ripper]

Runewalker...I didnt know that about the pole spacing on a bridge pup!
Thanks for that info!

[Runewalker]

deepblue said:

Runewalker...I didnt know that about the pole spacing on a bridge pup!
Thanks for that info!

De Nada, my man DeepAzure. We won't talk about wood.

www.m-w.com/dictionary/azure

[Ripper]

Yes, wood is taboo! hehe!

[UnklMickey]

"He wanted to know if the bridge pup would work OK in the neck position if it is turned around with the screws on the side nearest the fretboard. "


Andy,

i agree with everything that has been said in this thread up to now.

(yes Rune, you can put that one, in the believe-it-or-not column.)

be sure to frame that information in the right context.


will a bridge pickup work OK at the neck?

perhaps quite well indeed!

the placement of the pole-piece screws might not be optimized. but, that's not going to trash the sound.

if that bridge pup placed at the neck is paired with a neck pup at the bridge, it might be exactly what someone might want, depending on their tastes.

someone who prefers to solo using the neck pup, might like it being a bit hot.

pairing that up with a cooler bridge pup in parallel, will provide a reasonably smoothed out tone for chords.

using that configuration, for solos using the bridge pup, would mean the pup at the neck should be set very low. (far from the strings)

that's not optimal, but might be workable.



screws nearest the bridge and nearest the fretboard for the the bridge and neck, respectively, are common conventions.

but they are not etched in stone.

a some of the I.P.I.T.E. can be reduced by using a bridge pup with the screws away from the bridge.



the other thing that wasn't crystal from your question:

will this kid be using that pup with an even hotter pickup at bridge?

if so, that should work out to be a "conventional configuration".


one more possibility:

although not likely, it's possible the neck and bridge pups were identical.



just my three cents.


unk

[Runewalker]

Neck at Bridge, Bridge at Neck, etc.

Untested by me, and unverified by any experiments I know about, I believe on the SDuncan sight is where I read that if the pole pieces are wider than the strings, that risks less outer string electromagnetic conversion reduction than if they are wider than the outer strings. So that would then in a pole distance calibrated set be an issue for the neck on bridge placement, and less an issue on bridge at neck conversion.

The 180 degree turn of the slug and adjustible sides on the bridge Unk mentioned (the Dimebag Darrel "mod") to reduce the penetrating treble, works on the inverse at the neck.

Gary Moore turns all of his humbuckers so the adjustable poles on the neck pup are away from the neck. He supposedly got that trick from Peter Green in PG's seminal Fleetwood Mac, before it turned into a chick-flick. That 'mod' is something I do routinely on HHs, especially if the neck pup is towards the hot windings end. It modestly improves the treble on the neck pup, which can get towards the muddy side on high output pups.

Many Dimarzios and some customs have adjustable poles on both coils + 4 lead wiring, so you could manage that trick electronically, as well as get the multiplicity of other options available with 4 leads.

Adjustable poles on both coils is a feature I have come to prefer, but it is mostly unavailable in the value products the multiple guitar modder pursues. So it becomes a more expensive preference. I think there is one GFS that has that but the poles are very oversized, and the mags are ceramic.

[leadfingers]

To all,

Big thanks! Unklmick, you asked if he was going to put in a hotter pup at the bridge. Not sure. He was kicking around the idea of three pups, sort of an inverted s-s-h like on some strats. I think (that could be dangerous!) that he was going to put the Humbucker at the neck, then a single in the middle and either another single or a different Humbucker at the bridge.

This is a project he is working on. His dad didn't want him spending a bunch of cash on a new axe and both are good with tools and pretty creative. So, he opted for getting some parts from other guitars, or Stew-Mac, making the body himself, and going from there.

Honestly, it would not surprise me if he puts together a decent guitar. I'll keep you guys posted. I've also given him the web site so one of these days he may show up.

Thanks again for the info, as always, top shelf stuff!

[sumgai]

Rune,

In addition to Deep's comments about higher output pups being targeted to the bridge due to less string amplitude in osculation, modern pups typically have ......

RW

Gotta admit, I'm like Doug on this one - I consider the day a waste if I don't learn at least one non-essential fact. ;D

Even after 44 years in this bidnuzz, I still didn't have any clue that strings can kiss at all! I mean, I can't fathom how they do it, but what the hey, I'm just a blind old fart, and I'll trust that you've given us the straight skinny. Thanks, man, I owe you one!


sumgai

[Runewalker]

Kiss.

It depends on how kinky the pups are as to whether it is a little buss or a full blown monkey love episode. And get the hose if those magnets mate.

Guess I need to be a little more vigilant in reviewing the spell check's selections.

Oscillation (the second choice in the Spell Check List), and that can be kinky too!.

SG we've come full circle, now I have to leave my butt show so yours won't.

[sumgai]

Rune,

Hey, I'll make ya a deal.... I delete my "correction" if you'll delete yours, then we can edit our.... ah, to hlll with it, too much trouble. Beside, that 'full-on monkey love' comment was worth it! ;D

On a side note, I don't get the spell check function, I just get a blank screen. But then again, Mrs. King (an old teacher) would be appalled at me if I needed such a thing! Shee wuz so prowd uv mee!


sumgai

[Runewalker]

sumgai said:

Beside, that 'full-on monkey love' comment was worth it! ;D

sumgai

I guess the pastor in you even cleaned that up. It was "full BLOW-on monkey love..." on purpose.

The poet is never fully appreciated in his own time.

RW

[Runewalker]

sumgai said:

On a side note, I don't get the spell check function, I just get a blank screen. But then again, Mrs. King (an old teacher) would be appalled at me if I needed such a thing! Shee wuz so prowd uv mee!


sumgai

Maybe your pop-up blocker interprets or spy ware interprets it as intrusive? It does take a few moments to refresh.

[sumgai]

Rune,

.....
Maybe your pop-up blocker interprets or spy ware interprets it as intrusive? It does take a few moments to refresh.

I use The Proxomitron, a whole 'nother world unto itself. I could gush for days without end over its merits, but you'd be better served by perusing www.proxomitron.info for starters, and when you've got the basic gist of that, find all the support you could ever hope for at Kye-U's Proxo Forums. (I'm one of the Admins there.)

Yes, Proxo is blocking the spell checker, but then again, I haven't had my privacy compromised in any fashion whatsoever in the nearly 5 years since I started using this proggie. I could change the rules to let the spell checker run, but I'm too lazy at the moment.

But thanks for the thought! ;D


sumgai

[GuitarTechCraig]

"Gary Moore turns all of his humbuckers so the adjustable poles on the neck pup are away from the neck. He supposedly got that trick from Peter Green in PG's seminal Fleetwood Mac, before it turned into a chick-flick."

Just to clarify a bit, Peter's old LP, now owned by Gary, has at one time been disected. It appears that the neck pickup was rotated as you describe, but the magnet was also rotated so that the polarity was the same as it was before the pickup was rotated. That would put the pickups, when used together, in an out-of-phase condition. Not exactly like a phase switch, but out of phase nevertheless. Magnetically out of phase. This was the key to the mysterious Peter Green tone.

[mlrpa]

YEP! That was the trick! I've used it a few times, and like the very slight out of pahse sound that appears.

I'm a neck p/u player. On a Jackson I had, I used a DiMarzio DP107 (Megadrive) in the neck, and a modifed Carvin in the bridge. (One coil from a c22 neck, one from a bridge sd c22). I like the hotness of the neck, and in middle position, it has that nice warm factor for chords.

[sumgai]

Craig,

.......
Just to clarify a bit, Peter's old LP, now owned by Gary, has at one time been disected. It appears that the neck pickup was rotated as you describe, but the magnet was also rotated so that the polarity was the same as it was before the pickup was rotated. That would put the pickups, when used together, in an out-of-phase condition. Not exactly like a phase switch, but out of phase nevertheless. Magnetically out of phase. This was the key to the mysterious Peter Green tone.

Wait, wait! Let me get this straight here....... Do you mean to say that the pickup, presumably a humbucker, was rotated 180 degrees, such that the top remained the top, and did not become the bottom, is that right?


sumgai

[Runewalker]

I have read about the P Green pup orientation several times, and know of nothing definitive, as in someone, took it apart and confirmed the OoP claim. The explanations have ranged from:

just rotated so the adjusting screws in the neck pup are towards the bridge
to rotated and OoP
to rotated, and wired local parallel
to rotated, wire parallel and Oop.

There may be a credible source out there, but there are an array of opinions.

Here is an expample explanation and some pix:

The nasal sound of the neck pick-up on Green's guitar was not, as used to be believed, the result of the pickup having been turned backwards, but instead its two coils had been - perhaps accidentally - reconnected in parallel and out of phase, as per the "in between" positions of a Fender Stratocaster. Moore has used this guitar in the recordings of some songs of his albums Still Got the Blues, After Hours and Blues For Greeny. Peter Green and Moore also reportedly had a disagreement regarding what guitar the former was playing in the song "Albatross". Moore insists it was the Les Paul, because the guitar tone was particularly warm and rich in the bass, while Peter Green maintains he was using a Strat, as the vibrato in that song was not finger vibrato, but subtle tremolo arm vibrato. Nevertheless, up to this day, Green and Moore remain good friends.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Moore

www.privateguitarcollector.com/Peter%20Green%20%20Gary%20Moore.htm

[sumgai]

I guess we'll never know, unless the Gawds of the Guitar-dweebs smile upon us, and make someone take it apart and diagram exactly what's going on - and then publish that info.

Short of that, it's a moot point to debate what was done to get his 'sound'. Unless someone wants to take apart a guitar and try all the possible permutations, assembling the guitar after each one, playing and recording it, and then moving on to the next possibility. Sounds a bit over the top to me.

I'm outta here, at least on this point. If it gets interesting again, ring me up, eh?


sumgai