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Post by dunkelfalke on Nov 7, 2005 5:06:42 GMT -5
hello forum
i am playing guitar for about two years now and still it is painful for me to play powerchords and barre. is it normal or am i doing something terribly wrong?
any advices?
thanks in advance
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Post by UnklMickey on Nov 7, 2005 15:32:58 GMT -5
if it's sore fingertips, this should have gone away after 2 years of playing. or are you talking about a cramping sort of pain in the finger joints and tendons? some discomfort is not unusual, some people's physiology doesn't lend itself as easily to a guitar as others (1st hand experience here.) but pain usually indicates a problem there are a few instances where pain or discomfort would be "normal": - playing infrequently - like only 1/2 hr, once a week
- using heavy gauge strings. 0.13 for high E
- playing on a fretboard that's flat.
- extremely high action
- a neck that's too large or too small to fit comfortably in your hand.
if you play infrequently, playing everyday will build up the strength in your hand. heavy gauge strings and high action sound great, but can really tax you physically. try using light to normal gauge strings. if none of the things on the list fit your circumstance, consider seeing a doctor. you may have arthritis.
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Post by dunkelfalke on Nov 8, 2005 2:14:39 GMT -5
i see. so it is my repetitive strain injury i suppose. thanks.
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Post by firebottles on Dec 9, 2005 23:44:02 GMT -5
I feel your pain! well actually I do.. I had to stop playing a few months ago for a while... because the pain was so bad. I have played bass for a long time.. I love the really busy stuff.. grew up playing Black Sabbath and Rush etc. I do have some advice that worked for me. Raise your guitar a bit.. it doesn't look as cool but just a small amount makes a huge difference. Another thing.. I am almost positive the problem lies in my back. If you have tingling at the lower side of your shoulder blades, there is a pinched nerve.. and that nerve runs right down your arm to your hand. I went out and got a "Teeter Hang-up" and Gravity boots ($150 US). So I can hang upsidedown, do inverted situps (which are amazing by the way), squats etc. I noticed after a few days the pain had moved away from the pinky and ring finger to the other side of my hand. This proves to me that the problem is not in the hand but in the back, as the inversion helps stretch out the back, relieving pressure on the pinched nerve. Also take a multivitamin... if you are low on magnesium, your muscles will have a harder time recovering from spasms (the tingling).. I would still be doing inversion but I just got kneed in the ribs while kickboxing last week and broke one away from the sternum. I really believe if I could continue inversion though, the pain would disappear from my hands entirely. I'll start again in a couple months. BTW .. I am not a doctor.. I just play one on the internet. Check these things out.. it might really help.
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Post by firebottles on Dec 9, 2005 23:46:04 GMT -5
Another thing... one of the doctors I went to told me it was repetitive strain injury too.
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Post by mlrpa on Dec 16, 2005 23:26:41 GMT -5
Something that should be thought about, is your technique. If you throw your thumb over the fretboard while doing barre chords, that would cause undue strain. Another question is: where does it hurt? Fingers? Wrist? Forearm?
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Post by dunkelfalke on Feb 21, 2006 17:47:32 GMT -5
now that's me again. haven't seen the last three replies back then and wanted to come back now asking for advice - exactly about my technique this is how i play a powerchord you can see my short hand and fingers and you also can see the extremly flat fretboard and a very slim neck (comparable to ibanez wizard if not even slimmer i think) playing on my other guitars (with thicker necks and a bit rounder fretboards) is much more painless but still not perfect but i prefer this guitar (a modified hohner revelation rts) is there anything i can do? thanks in advance
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Post by pollyshero on Feb 21, 2006 20:25:08 GMT -5
Dunk,
After re-reading everyone else's input, I wonder If you're taking any advice? I'm not trying to be mean - just wondering...
Your avatar pic shows you somewhat "hunched" over the guitar - is that a pose, or your normal playing posture? Your excellent pics above show me a hand position that would have me crying - There's no way I could play with my wrist bent like that...
Not being you, and not knowing your technical "requirements" (everybody has a bad habit - mine is throwing my thumb over the fretboard as pointed out by mlrpa), it's hard to give advice that will work.
You've already discovered some of the solution on your own - thicker necks and rounder fretboards. I'd move in that direction. I'd also change posture - stand up straighter, raise the guitar, and let the neck fall into your hand in a more natural position.
I'd also consider taking some time off every once in a while to let yourself heal. Back in November you said you've only been playing about 2 years? Sometimes "beginners" go over the top when it comes to practicing. Practice DOES contribute to perfect - but there has to be a limit. I've read your many posts with interest, and I've seen the pics of your gear. You appear to be dedicated and serious. GOOD FOR YOU! But, at what point will you realize that doing what you love may be doing you harm?
Have you been to the doctor? Please tell me you have.
There may not be a permanent solution to your problem. But I believe there are many things you can do to reduce the pain. It may be as simple as carpal-tunnel syndrome, which can be cured with rest and a short course of medication, and recurrence kept at bay by identifying and eliminating the habits that caused it in the first place.
Re-read all the posts (and any one of the other bazillion posts regarding this problem on the net). Consider each solution carefully. What has worked for others, might work for you. If not, a doctor's care may be in order.
Dude - I'd much rather read from you that while you don't get to play as often as you'd like (because to do more causes you pain), you're enjoying it more because you're not IN pain. I wanna hear you rave about the things you're discovering on your new 12 string, and not how you had to give up the 12 because it hurt too much.
Capisce?
Good luck
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Post by Ripper on Feb 21, 2006 23:13:22 GMT -5
I used to get pain years ago. It was more my the base of my thumb. Even today when I play I try and twist the neck off of the guitar. I have a very tight grip and dig into the fretboard. I tried some routines to limber up before playing, and that helps alot. You wouldnt jog or play sports without warming up would you?...Well the guitar is the same thing.
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Post by dunkelfalke on Feb 22, 2006 1:31:07 GMT -5
pollyshero: no, i don't play much, not more than a half an hour a day - no time. about the neck: sadly i just can't change the neck of this guitar, it is a bolt on neck but it has got a special neck design i have repetitive strain injury for six years now and it won't go away ever, so i just have to live with it. if you could show me how to fret those chords properly i would be very thankful, because i really don't know it better and couldn't find a better position for my hand yet.
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Post by RJB on Feb 22, 2006 9:15:39 GMT -5
You might also check the setup on the guitar. Taking some truss rod relief out, and ever so slightly raising the action, can loosen the string tension.
As mentioned lighter strings. Compensate by raising the pickups to keep the tone you're used to.
Also practice loosening your grip. Your fingertips shouldn't be touching the fret board. Press the string only enough to cleanly make the note. This is a problem I still need to continuously work at my self.
From your pictures, I'm guessing your chunking away at '5' chords. Basically just the bottom 3 strings? So you don't need to barre the 3rd,4th and 5th strings. Just barre the strings you need to.
As mentioned raising the guitar up will take some of the wrist rotation out of your playing posistion. So will raising the neck above the body, rather than keeping it horizontal. Also try playing in a seated position. Change it up a bit.
Although not always an option is changing guitars. A 24 3/4" scale verses a 25 1/2" scale is easier on the hands.
Just my 2¢
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Post by dunkelfalke on Feb 22, 2006 10:31:02 GMT -5
hm, the strings are already light, i use .10 strings and i already tried to rise the action, it did more harm than good. my problems are more - at least as i can see it - because my fingers are so short and my hand so small i have to hold the hand in a somewhat unnatural position for reaching the fretted strings with my fingertips without muting the other strings with the rest of my fingers. either that or i am playing all wrong. if i am playing all wrong then i would really appreciate a pic or so which shows me correct fretting :-)
i have tried it out now, raising the neck even more does really help. as i am almost always playing while sitting the guitar head is now nearly above my head ;D
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Post by mlrpa on Mar 7, 2006 22:39:25 GMT -5
Ok, let's go back to the basics. When you sit down when practicing, what leg does the guitar rest on? Left leg or right? It does make a major difference. Possibly move your thumb back one fret. ie: you play an A major barre chord, place the thumb at the 4th fret. (Changes the angle of your wrist.) Also, with kind respect to RJB, raising the action is a bad idea. It forces you to put more strain on the wrist. Also try to barely touch the strings to the fret. A lighter touch can help.
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Post by sumgai on Mar 8, 2006 23:42:37 GMT -5
dunklefalk, While I don't profess to know exactly how you are holding your guitar, I do know a few of the rudiments, and as mlrpa just said, let's get back to basics. You've shown us your hand on the neck, and that was good. But you also said that you've suffered from an RSI (six years ago, I believe), and that you expect to have to deal with it for the rest of your life. Probably true, that, so let's make that journey as easy as we can, eh? The position in which you hold your guitar against your body has the greatest effect of all on how your hand reacts to playing. Too much in one direction or the other, and you'll feel exhaustion, pain, numbness, you already know the symptoms. While there is a wide latitude in which you could be deemed "correct", there are also some positions that I suspect will not work for you any more. To illustrate a position that I guarantee will cause your hand a boatload of grief, take a close look at this fella's left wrist: (EDIT) Rats, I see that my former link has been nullified. Must be we hit that site too many times. Here's another image, let's hope that it sticks around to make the point about bad wrist position. (/EDIT)Here's how most instructors tell you to hold your guitar when you're first learning to play: This should be the least painful, or so they say. If you're holding your axe closer to Photo #1 than to #2, then I suggest that you try the latter for awhile. It may not look as cool, but then again, cool looks don't buy freedom from pain, nor do they put money in the bank (if you can't play 'cause it hurts). Cool sounds, cool music, that's what puts money in the bank, and the best way to get there is to be comfortable at all times. Like, as in, pain-free. Or as close to you as you can get. Hey, I've said my zwei pfennigs worth, let's let somebody else in here. HTH sumgai
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Post by dunkelfalke on Mar 9, 2006 7:09:01 GMT -5
that last position only works for a classical guitar because you cannot reach higher frets old pic but this is more or less how i hold my guitar, whether i am sitting or standing, sometimes this angle, sometimes a more flat one i am short and have short fingers
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Post by RJB on Mar 9, 2006 8:51:48 GMT -5
mlrpa, Just to clarify, I suggested taking out neck relief, and adjusting height to compensate. Many guitars are setup with too much relief in an attempt to get lower string height. this often leads to the string not fretting on the crown, but more on the back edge of the fret. THIS forces the player to need a harder "Touch" to keep the notes from buzzing. Taking .002" (.05mm) out of the relief, and raising the strings 1/64" (.3mm) can sometimes allow for a softer touch.
Looking back at the first set of picture you posted, specifically the second one, where you show the players view from above the neck. I notice a bit of "whitening" of the fingers and thumb. And your ring and pinky fingers are a bit flat. This is a softer part of the finger. Try rotating the fingers up so you are hitting more on the tips. This might allow for a softer touch.
Final comment is back to the neck. That looks to be a bit of a thin neck. A chunkier neck may feel more comfortable. I know you mentioned it was a special design, but a guitar you can play comfortably would give you more joy than one that hurts to play.
Just my 2 cents. . . . again
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Post by dunkelfalke on Mar 9, 2006 9:23:22 GMT -5
i am right now negotiating with a luthier about the price for a custom neck for this guitar so the problem will be adressed as soon as i have the money
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Post by lunaalta on Mar 9, 2006 15:56:22 GMT -5
Do you try to look at the strings while you are playing? This would cause you to be constantly trying to twist the neck towards your sightline. Painful! Ensure that the guitar is hanging free and keep your head up not looking at what you are fretting. Good luck getting painless
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Post by UnklMickey on Mar 9, 2006 17:42:31 GMT -5
Falke,
don't give up on that idea Sumgai put out there.
you don't have your guitar hanging down by your knees, so that's a good thing.
in fact you're not all that far away from where you might see some improvement.
i think one thing that is keeping you from being able to shorten your strap even further, and lowering your headstock closer to level, is the geometry of the strat. the long horn keeps the body, and bridge located to far to your right side when it's level.
that makes it hard to play the high notes because your wrist would need to be between your body and the guitar.
not only that, but because the bridge is so close to the tail, that would cause a less desirable position for your right hand too.
you would have less of these problems with a 'paul, if it was high and near level. but i think you're not so interested in changing from your strat.
so what other ways can we think of that might help?
maybe you could try a harness instead of a strap. if you can find one that would locate the guitar more to the left, it might make things work out better.
"change it up a bit" ?
yeah!
maybe changing height and angle a bit, periodically during your playing sessions, might keep you from aggravating the same areas that are causing you pain.
keep trying different positions, until you find one (or a variety them) that work better for you.
unk
PS.
Sumgai,
is that fella someone you know, or an unwilling victim who's picture you commandeered?
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Post by pollyshero on Mar 9, 2006 18:07:57 GMT -5
i think one thing that is keeping you from being able to shorten your strap even further, and lowering your headstock closer to level, is the geometry of the strat. the long horn keeps the body, and bridge located to far to your right side when it's level. Leave it to unk to think "outside the box"! Now that I'm reminded - my old bass teacher added a strap button to the back of his Fender Jazz, near the neck plate. He never used the button on the upper horn, stating that it was too uncomfortable to play if he did. He played with the guitar nearly vertical, much in the manner of an upright bass. You obviously wouldn't want to go to the vertical limit - but it might give you more options to find a more comfortable playing position. Might be worth a try...
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Post by UnklMickey on Mar 9, 2006 21:25:54 GMT -5
...Leave it to unk to think "outside the box"! Now that I'm reminded - my old bass teacher added a strap button to the back of his Fender Jazz, near the neck plate. He never used the button on the upper horn, stating that it was too uncomfortable to play if he did. He played with the guitar nearly vertical, much in the manner of an upright bass. You obviously wouldn't want to go to the vertical limit - but it might give you more options to find a more comfortable playing position. Might be worth a try... yeah, i've had to be in that mode of thinking more more often lately. being at or near the vertical limit might even be an interesting change of pace for the left hand, but unless he would be using his right hand in the same style as one would use on an upright bass, can you imagine how weird that would be? putting a button on the back sounds like a good idea. certainly worth trying. i wonder if there might be a way of using a steel button with one of the existing neck plate butttons? or do you guys think that's a bad idea?
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Post by RJB on Mar 10, 2006 12:19:33 GMT -5
If you want to try the back of neck strap button location. Dan Erlewine shows in his book, that you can use one of the bolt on neck screws to hold the strap button. He claims most neck screws are long enough to go through a strap button, and still have enough threads in the neck to do their job. Just a thought you can try without putting a new hole in the guitar.
Ron
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Post by UnklMickey on Mar 10, 2006 12:33:08 GMT -5
hey Ron,
thanks for posting that!
i get concerned that sometimes my ideas might look good on the surface, but are actually bad ideas. (sometimes that is the case)
it's nice to know that this one was on the mark.
of course we don't know for sure if this will help lessen Falke's problem, but it's worth trying and reversible.
thanks,
unk
EDIT:
as i look back over the replies on this thread, i am amazed by how many different idea are out there that will certainly help. not only for Falke's problem, but for a guitarist's health in general.
living in a fast paced world, it's easy to neglect some simple things like diet, vitamins, and exercise.
and anything that increases blood flow especially to your joints and tendons, will help your body repair itself more effectively.
another benefit to all this healthy stuff, is your wife or girlfriend will be grateful for the other improvements it makes. everything benefits from improved health.
optimizing set-ups, posture, and improving the physical positioning of the guitar relative to the guitarist are always worthwhile endeavors.
Falke, one thing i can say for sure. you certainly do have many brothers here who care about you.
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Post by dunkelfalke on Mar 10, 2006 13:17:48 GMT -5
true, and i am thankful and amazed
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Post by sumgai on Mar 14, 2006 1:00:18 GMT -5
unk, Gawd, this thread moves like a slinky string, eh? ;D Yep, they're both draftees in the revolution to free dunklefalk from the pain of unremitting love of his guitar! sumgai p.s. If the copyright holders crab about my linking (I didn't filch them, they're on their own sites), then we can take 'em out, of course. p.p.s I just fixed the first image, it was gone. I had to look quite a ways to find a good shot of a tortured wrist.
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Post by sumgai on Mar 14, 2006 1:10:04 GMT -5
dunk,
Keep trying guy! Like I said, there is no absolutely correct position, but there are some positions that are definitely wrong. With your RSI, you may be more limited in the ways you can hold your guitar for any length of time, but 'changing up' should cure that problem, or so I would think.
sumgai
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Post by sumgai on Mar 14, 2006 1:13:15 GMT -5
Ron,
One thing about the strap button on the back......
What happens to the case itself when you put your guitar away? If it's vintage and valuable, I'd think twice about this. A shorter strap may have to suffice. But if the case is not a concern, then yes, a lower strap button also changes the balance as well as the guitar's position in relation to both your body and your hands. In turn, that affects the comfort level. For some players, this may be just the ticket.
sumgai
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dedidio
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Post by dedidio on Apr 12, 2006 13:14:46 GMT -5
I am still very much a beginner but I have gone through some pain (mainly in the base of my thumb) and raised it with my teacher 2 weeks on the trot this is what he had to say the first week: don't grip it so hard - just hard enough to make the tone
The second week I said that if I gripped it any lighter I didn't get the note - he said (something to the effect of): move your barre to be virtually on the fret, not in the middle space between 2 frets.
Looking at your photo above you are barreing (sp?) in roughly the same place I was - I moved this to be 'virtually' (but not quite) on the fret and that's sorted me out nicely as now I don't have to squeeze the neck with my thumb.
edit - oops, hadn't realised this was a 2 page thread, so I hadn't read anything after the first page ...
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Post by UnklMickey on Apr 12, 2006 16:50:07 GMT -5
...edit - oops, hadn't realised this was a 2 page thread, so I hadn't read anything after the first page ... join the club, it happens all the time.
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schmuck
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Post by schmuck on Jun 14, 2006 18:19:53 GMT -5
I play classical guitar and the last position was invented for the higher frets!!!! I play a tele too and always have it up this high. I know it looks nerdy but I was trained in classical and the teacher used to have target practice with rubber bands and students thumbs...he NEVER wanted to see a thumb above the neck. It was always positioned in the center rear of the neck. Thats how I play most of the time. Pretend like your holding a large apple your hand is a good way to think about it. It helps to prevent carpal tunnel as well as fatigue and neck pain too....It's weird how these things work. I had a bass player mate who had a back problem and his playing technique was sorted out by an osetopath!! Just my thoughts anyway
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