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Post by dunkelfalke on Feb 13, 2006 9:29:21 GMT -5
i just have ordered a 12 string ovation copy
have never played one, can someone tell me a thing or two about playing a 12 string guitar?
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Post by Ripper on Feb 13, 2006 12:10:45 GMT -5
Hey dunkelfalke...Twelve strings are great! Its the same as playing a six string only the last three ( or is is four?) strings D-A-E or tuned an octave apart. You get such a wonderful melodic sound. I am getting one soon as well. I had one in the past and I must say that its a little harder on the fingertips because the meat of your fingers is pushing on two strings instead of one. You get used to it quickly though. Have fun!
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Post by RandomHero on Feb 13, 2006 16:05:38 GMT -5
Yeah, really just play it like a 6-string for starters. There are some individual string techniques you can master, but for now just enjoy the sing! It's the most natural "chorus effect" there is.
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Post by Mini-Strat_Maine on Feb 13, 2006 17:32:39 GMT -5
Hey dunkelfalke...Twelve strings are great! Its the same as playing a six string only the last three ( or is is four?) strings D-A-E or tuned an octave apart. E-A-D-G "courses" (pairs) are tuned an octave apart; B and e (1) have "drones" too, but they're tuned in unison. Instead of 1 through 6, the strings are numbered 1-2, 3-4, and so on, up to 11-12. Think Roger McGuinn in The Byrds, some Tom Petty stuff (Mike Campbell?), and Mason Williams' "Classical Gas" instrumental. I've had my Yamaha acoustic since the mid-Seventies (DeArmond pickup across the soundhole), and last year acquired a Jay Turser Hawk 12 via an eBay deal. McGuinn has an onboard compressor built into his Rickenbacker 360/12RM for more sustain. My Analog Man-converted Dyna/Ross (DynaComp upgrade) "lives with" the Hawk 12. I used to keep the Yamaha a half-step below concert pitch and capoed it at the first fret, just to try to save some strain on the neck. ("Extra Light" 12-string sets can produce upwards of 300 lbs. of tension at standard tuning, and "Light" sets 400+ lbs.) A friend of mine out in NY has had his Ovation 12 for years, and I think the guitar may have help up better than Mike has. I'd have to agree, the fretting of a twelver takes a little getting used to, and picking does too. (McGuinn played banjo at one time, so he has that "rolling" fingerpicking thing going on.) Tuning up is also twice as much fun! ;D Which reminds me: here's an article that David Hodge ( left-handed, small-handed 12-string player) wrote, called "Double Your Pleasure." www.guitarnoise.com/article.php?id=75. There's some Paul Simon and some Allman Brothers stuff thrown in there. Have fun!
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Post by dunkelfalke on Feb 14, 2006 2:41:16 GMT -5
thanks for the help :-)
btw i have a thought which is surely old. would it be interesting to tune the added strings not to the pitch but say three semitones lower or higher?
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Post by Ripper on Feb 14, 2006 4:35:59 GMT -5
correct me if im wrong, but wasnt classical gas done on a six string nylon classical?
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Post by RandomHero on Feb 14, 2006 11:11:31 GMT -5
Dunkel had an idea, many 12-stringers intentionall detune their second strings to set amounts of semitones away for the sake of harmonizing. Unfortunately, it's rather restrictive in most cases, in that the next logical interval up in any given scale won't always be that number you tuned the second string to...
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Post by Mini-Strat_Maine on Feb 14, 2006 12:22:40 GMT -5
correct me if im wrong, but wasnt classical gas done on a six string nylon classical? Y'know, you may be right. Although Williams was well regarded for his 12-string work (he had two cuts on the LP "Anthology of the 12-string Guitar"), I can't find any specific reference to a twelver being used on "Classical Gas." (Here www.classicalgas.com or elsewhere, but that was looking at only a few pages' worth of Google results.) Okay, how about "Stairway To Heaven," with three electric 12-strings?
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Post by Mini-Strat_Maine on Feb 14, 2006 12:31:41 GMT -5
Dunkel had an idea, many 12-stringers intentionall detune their second strings to set amounts of semitones away for the sake of harmonizing. Unfortunately, it's rather restrictive in most cases, in that the next logical interval up in any given scale won't always be that number you tuned the second string to... Yeah, that seems like way too much work compared to the potential product. David Hodge's thoughts on it: www.guitarnoise.com/faq.php?id=137
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Post by UnklMickey on Feb 15, 2006 10:50:46 GMT -5
thanks for the help :-) btw i have a thought which is surely old. would it be interesting to tune the added strings not to the pitch but say three semitones lower or higher? Falke, that idea is almost superb. going up 4 semitones (major 3rd) would be really nice, except for the way our scales have varying intervals. if you played the second of a scale, the upper tone would then be an augmented 4th. it doesn't fit in the scale. tuning one of the strings up or down a perfect 4th or perfect 5th might be a little more workable, but you would still have notes where the added tone would be "off-scale". of course, you could tune the added strings up 4 semitones, and only play in whole tone scales. but who lives there? still, i like the original thought. if there was just some way of changing that interval according to which string/fret you were on, so that the added tones were always on-scale... unk
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Post by pollyshero on Feb 15, 2006 23:53:40 GMT -5
Welcome to torture-land! I predict you will have problems for a while - seems to me I keep reading about you having some repetetive motion disorder or something like that...
My kids pooled their money a few years back & bought me a 12. I was in HEAVEN! I received it on a Friday & spent pretty much every waking moment playing it. I even got about 5 minutes in before work on Monday.
Around mid-afternoon, however, I started aching - forearm, shoulder, neck, and shoulder blade (left hand was throbbing...). By quitting time those various body parts were shouting at me for abusing them. It was a few days more before I could play ANY guitar without pain, and for at least a week, my left arm and hand were noticeably weaker.
SO - Be good to yourself. Do your warm-ups. Start out slow - do short frequent sessions for a while until your muscles get used to the extra workload. You might THINK it's "almost as easy as playing 6 strings", but you're fooling yourself.
In the end, it's TOTALLY worth it. I found playing the 12 to be very liberating - Now I can play some of my old favorites as they were originally recorded - plus my own stuff takes on a new dimension with the added tones. Soon enough you'll be "thinking" in 12 string. I'd be willing to bet that in the first 5 minutes you'll pull off something that never ever would have occurred to you if you'd had a 6 in your hands.
CONGRATULATIONS!
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Post by Ripper on Feb 16, 2006 14:21:10 GMT -5
Dont yell at me guys!....I believe Stairway to Heaven was recorded on a 12 string accoustic, and the solo was done on a Fender telecaster. Jimmy page only used the Gibson doubleneck for live gigs.
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Post by dunkelfalke on Feb 16, 2006 15:36:43 GMT -5
thanks for your concern, pollyshero, i really appreciate that :-)
i play short sessions anyway, because of the wrist pain, but i still hope that the 12string wouldn't be much more strain to my hands, if only because of lighter strings (.10 vs .12 on my ibanez talman)
i'm really looking forward to play porcupine tree's trains on a twelve string guitar - it's a really great acoustic song
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Post by UnklMickey on Feb 16, 2006 16:20:19 GMT -5
Dont yell at me guys!....I believe Stairway to Heaven was recorded on a 12 string accoustic, and the solo was done on a Fender telecaster. Jimmy page only used the Gibson doubleneck for live gigs. well, if you know as much about LZ, as you seem know to about the Beatles, then i believe it too. but we still can't pay you.
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Post by Mini-Strat_Maine on Feb 16, 2006 18:47:57 GMT -5
Dont yell at me guys!....I believe Stairway to Heaven was recorded on a 12 string accoustic, and the solo was done on a Fender telecaster. Jimmy page only used the Gibson doubleneck for live gigs. I could be mistaken, rare though that is. ;D I was going by this: www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mgt.asp?ppn=gt0038030&bookmark=0&title=Stairway, which doesn't make it "stone guaranteed," but I would hope that after they paid the copyright fees, MusicNotes could have the whole enchilada. I'm glad somebody took down that "No Stairway" sign. "And that's a recorder, not a flute. Two of 'em, to be exact." (Little things learned while looking up other things.)
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Post by UnklMickey on Feb 16, 2006 19:04:26 GMT -5
..."No Stairway" sign. "... "...it WILL be mine, oh yes, it WILL be mine."
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Post by dunkelfalke on Feb 26, 2006 16:19:21 GMT -5
well, after about 10 days i can say three things 1) the tuning is frustrating. oh and how frustrating it is! 2) a 12 string guitar is good for chords, sounds like there are two guitars playing 3) it is really really really top-heavy and i don't know what to do about it short of putting a brick into the soundhole
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Post by UnklMickey on Feb 27, 2006 17:11:06 GMT -5
....the tuning is frustrating. oh and how frustrating it is! ...it is really really really top-heavy and i don't know what to do about it short of putting a brick into the soundhole it's kind of clumsy to try to mute one string, and play it's sister when tuning, but that's what's needed. instead of a brick in the soundhole, how about tying helium baloons to the headstock? .:lol:. seriously, it may work better to have the strap go to the headstock rather than to the neck-body joint. unk
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Post by Ripper on Feb 27, 2006 19:16:17 GMT -5
The 12 string I owned years ago was an Ovation. The only thig I didnt like was that I had to stand up to play because of the bowl on the back of the guitar. It would slide up if I was sitting down.
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Post by sumgai on Mar 14, 2006 1:20:08 GMT -5
Yeah, this is old, but it showed up on my "unread" list, so I read it. So sue me. ;D dunk's idea of offset secondary strings has merit. All of you missed the obvious - open tunings. Now, no matter what key you started in, if you simply bar your way up the neck, you'll always be in the correct tonality. This trick is done a lot on modeling boxes, just ask ChrisK. sumgai
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Post by RandomHero on Mar 15, 2006 10:21:46 GMT -5
DeepBlue,
I had a buddy with an Ovation. He solved that problem by putting skateboard grip-tape in strategic positions on the bowl of his guitar. Think 25-grit industrial strength sandpaper with adhesive on the back. On the upside, most of the stuff is black, so it'll fit well.
My thinking is that a couple strips under the waist of the guitar and over your leg would hold it in place just fine! (Of course, that is assuming you're wearing pants...)
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Post by UnklMickey on Mar 15, 2006 11:04:25 GMT -5
...(Of course, that is assuming you're wearing pants...) hahaha! even if he isn't, he'll hafta suffer the abrasions. we don't want that guitar sliding up. he can save that exposure for his sweetie.
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Post by pollyshero on Mar 15, 2006 20:50:27 GMT -5
...that is assuming you're wearing pants...) Y'all wear pants when you play? Hmm.. I'll have to give that a try sometime.
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servant
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Post by servant on Mar 15, 2006 22:50:33 GMT -5
dunk's idea of offset secondary strings has merit. All of you missed the obvious - open tunings. Like "Question" by the Moody Blues (Why do we never get an answer, when we're knocking at the door...). A 12-string acoustic tuned to open-C (C G C G C E). The one weird chord to figure out is a simple D chord, but sounds very dissonant in open-C, as the notes are C G C A D# F# I think the 12-string rhythm guitar on Stairway was a Fender electric 12-string. I keep picturing something with this headstock: And good call on the recorders on the intro. Most people think it's a Mellotron because that's what Jonesy played live. Thank You, from LZ II, was a Vox electric 12-string.
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Post by Ripper on Mar 16, 2006 12:16:20 GMT -5
no, no, no...Jimmy Page played an accoustic 12 string on Stairway, and the solo was done on a Telecaster, not a Les Paul. He only used the Gibson doubleneck to perform the song live.
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Post by UnklMickey on Mar 16, 2006 15:14:02 GMT -5
...that is assuming you're wearing pants...) Y'all wear pants when you play? Hmm.. I'll have to give that a try sometime. hey, i think we figured out why the club is only half full at your gig. only the women showed up.
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Post by lawrencedesigns on Mar 16, 2006 19:00:09 GMT -5
For some really great 12-string fun, try DADGAD! Yes, sometimes it's like tuning a centipede, but alternate tunings work wonders on the 12. I never tried DADGAD on a 12 before last night.. But I was listening to Peter Greens work on the Al Stewart song "Nostradamus" and realized it was a 12 in that tuning. What a revelation! 1-1V-V in D takes only ONE finger..And the inherent drone in DADGAD makes the 12 sing... It will save your fingers and wrist...Experiment!
Keeth Lawrence lawrencedesigns
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Post by UnklMickey on Mar 16, 2006 19:10:40 GMT -5
..."Nostradamus"... ... What a revelation! ... don't know if you noticed that juxtaposition you had there. gave me a little chuckle. unk
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Post by lawrencedesigns on Mar 16, 2006 19:29:55 GMT -5
Unk, Yikes! Didn't notice that. Great observation. Ahh, for the love of serendipity.
Keeth
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servant
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Post by servant on Mar 16, 2006 19:44:11 GMT -5
no, no, no...Jimmy Page played an accoustic 12 string on Stairway, and the solo was done on a Telecaster, not a Les Paul. He only used the Gibson doubleneck to perform the song live. Maybe. But who said anything about a Les Paul? ;D I've known about the Tele for years. I would guess that it must have been the psychedelic-painted "gift from Jeff Beck" that he played at the end of the Yardbirds and early days of LZ. Nu?
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