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Post by fobits on Jul 2, 2006 10:00:49 GMT -5
There is a question that I've been puzzling over for a while. At the risk of sounding like a total idiot, I'll toss it out here.
According to what I've heard, some players tune their guitars a half-tone below normal. The late Stevie Ray Vaughan did this, according to legend, and a lot of people would like to sound like him.
I assume (but I'm not sure) that the object is to fit heavier strings, for a more full tone, without increasing string tension.
That isn't a problem so long as you don't play any open chords or open strings. All of the notes and patterns would be moved up one fret to compensate.
I occurs to me that you could have the same advantage, PLUS open strings and chords, by tuning down a half-tone and using a capo on the first fret. Better yet, the first fret could be replaced by a nut. Better yet, you could just use a 24" scale guitar in the first place. (The first fret on a Strat-scale guitar is just a smidgen more than 24" from the bridge.)
So my questions are:
a) Is this the reason it's done, or am I completely off-base with that assumption?
b) Why haven't I ever seen a guitar modified with a nut in place of the first fret? Compared to some of the modifications that people make, that would be quite easy to do.
c) Why are 24" scale guitars so rare and unpopular? If my reasoning is right, you would expect to see many shorter-necked models, but you don't.
Just some thoughts meandering through my head on a Sunday morning....
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Post by Mini-Strat_Maine on Jul 2, 2006 13:52:36 GMT -5
There is a question that I've been puzzling over for a while. At the risk of sounding like a total idiot, I'll toss it out here. "The only idiotic question, Grasshopper, is the one that goes unasked." (I love saying that; makes some people think I actually know something.  ) It's more than legend. SRV "usually" tuned down a half-step, and preferred a relatively high action, over jumbo frets. With the heavy strings he used, it's amazing that he could play as fast as he did, but he had strong fingers and amazing pick control. (See The Way They Play: The Blues-Rock Masters, by HP Newquist and Rich Maloof; Backbeat Books.) Tuning down a half-step was one way Stevie got his "thick" tone. Jime Hendrix did the same, or sometimes by a whole step, although with lighter strings. (Fender Rock 'n' Roll medium light, .010-.038, rather than the .013-and-up -- bass strings -- that SRV liked.) There was a time when I kep my old Yamaha 12-string acoustic a half-step below concert pitch, just to try and save wear-and-tear on the neck. (You can get something like 400+ lbs. of tension from a set of light strings on a twelver. Extra-lights ease it a little.) I'd capo it at the first fret to be able to play what the other kids were playing.  I believe (I am not a musicologist, nor do I portray one on TV) if you're tuned down as mentioned, and play an "Emaj shape," it's just pretty much "Same Stuff, Different Key." Anyone playing with you either retunes their instrument or transposes to the other key. (Or gets mad and leaves. Just kidding. ;D ) Big discussion here not long ago about "zero fret" guitars. I dunno if that's the same principle, but if it's what you're referring to, you can get a look via the Search function. Well, even if you do have too much time on your hands, you're asking good questions. I should be out mowing the lawn, but it's still too wet from the most recent rain. BTW, that book I mentioned can get you started with some examples of SRV-style playing, plus Jimi, Roy Buchanan, Duane Allman, Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, and more. I think Hal Leonard carries the Backbeat line. I got mine from Musician's Friend. If you go there, get it through the GN.com affiliation, so John A. gets credit for the sale. |
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Post by sumgai on Jul 2, 2006 21:30:11 GMT -5
Frank,One should never commit self-analysis on Sunday mornings! Tuning down is a favored method of reducing string tension. It not only allows a player to bend strings, but it might make a difference in whether or not an acoustic guitar's bridge pulls up the whole top of the axe, or even separates at the glue joint! Most players agree (but not all of 'em) that the tone won't be affected by a half step in either direction. Sometimes you'll notice a difference in timbre if you go a whole step. This might be subtle with only one string, like a dropped D tuning, but then again, it might not show up at all. Some players can play "blind" - they could literally put on a blindfold, and never miss a note for the rest of the night. Not me, I'm from the 'gotta see it' school. I even once contemplated having a neck made with the fret markers laid out one fret higher than normal. That way, the double dots were marking the normal "E" fret - I didn't care that they are the octave, I cared that they are "E", just as Gawd ordained. ;D Fortunately, the doctor took me off those pills, so I don't think like that anymore.  I think that no one replaces the first fret with a nut, just beause it would be overkill. The fret is already high enough, the strings are already held in place sideways, and once in awhile, you just may want/need to go down that extra little bit (one more semi-tone). And IMO, it would look mighty silly with all the extra wood between the "new nut" and the machine heads.  BTW, for an interesting viewpoint on the reason certain guitars sound as they do (with differing neck lengths), visit www.novaxguitars.com. I've posted this link before, but this time, I'm aiming at what Novax calls "klang tones". That refers to the "natural" tendency of a string to "klang" according to how long it is (the scale length). I'm not sure I agree with him on all his points, but he speaks eloquently, and he has a stable of endorsing artists that seem to agree with him. Capos are a good solution.... for folkies. I'm a fine one to talk, but if you can't use barre chords, then you aren't yet a guitarist.  Note to Doug: Really? I don't suppose that the string makers who publish their string tensions, particularly GHS, would be happy to hear this. I could Google for this (again), but I'm gonna let you do it, this time. Most string sets present a total tension of 85 to 115 lbs of tension. That's measured from nut to bridge, on a normally setup guitar, not just some test jig in a factory. The current feeling is, anything over about 135# is just untenable to most players, and puts an acoustic guitar's bridge at high risk of failure. In contrast, most necks (with truss rods, I'm sure) can withstand at least a couple hundred pounds of pull without ill effect. Strange how that works, eh? [/note]Enough of this, it's Sunday, and there's weeds that need pulling - I'm outta here! ;D sumgai |
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Post by Mini-Strat_Maine on Jul 3, 2006 1:41:49 GMT -5
Note to Doug: Really? I don't suppose that the string makers who publish their string tensions, particularly GHS, would be happy to hear this. I could Google for this (again), but I'm gonna let you do it, this time. Most string sets present a total tension of 85 to 115 lbs of tension. That's measured from nut to bridge, on a normally setup guitar, not just some test jig in a factory. The current feeling is, anything over about 135# is just untenable to most players, and puts an acoustic guitar's bridge at high risk of failure. In contrast, most necks (with truss rods, I'm sure) can withstand at least a couple hundred pounds of pull without ill effect. Strange how that works, eh? [/note] I checked C.F. Martin's, D'Addario's, and GHS' sites without too much luck, but I do have some info of my own stashed away. I haven't worked on it for awhile, but I made up a database comparing materials, gauges, price, and string tension (where I could find it) for not only different brands of 12-string sets, but different "models" within a brand. Okay, I know you're gonna say "If I've told you once, I've told you a million times, don't exaggerate." But I shot out the figure of "400+ lbs." without looking at my own database. Turns out I was about 100 pounds over for even the heaviest set I have listed, the Martin M1700 "Marquis Bronze Light." Some folks wouldn't consider a set with the first and second strings at .012" to be a "light" set, and I'm one of those people. Those weigh in at 312 lbs. of tension. They go up to .054/.030 for the "big E" pair. The "least tense" set I have listed is the Martin M1600 "Marquis Extra Light," another 80/20 bronze set. They run from .010/.010 to .047/.027, and "only" produce 245.7 lbs. of tension on the neck. So I definitely "misremembered" what was in my database when I wrote "400+." A couple of other Martin extra-light sets show 249.6 lbs, and the M200 "Folk Silk & Steel Round Wound" (with 11's) shows 253.4 lbs. Still a helluva lot more than I'd want anyone putting on my neck. |
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Post by sumgai on Jul 3, 2006 7:06:35 GMT -5
Doug, I just went to the GHS site, and that was one user-hostile-in-the-extreme website, lemme tell you.  I know that I once saw a set of tension listings on the back of a GHS Boomer set. A store salesman had pulled it off the rack to show me, in answer to an assertion I had made in a "discussion". Sadly, I don't see anything like it here on the web. Several also-ran guitar oriented forums on the web discuss the topic in general, like us, but so far, I haven't seen any charts or graphs, no figures at all. Curses!  300+ lbs, eh? I wanna be there when that guitar is taken in for a new bridge, or a new top! sumgai |
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Post by gumbo on Jul 4, 2006 2:47:11 GMT -5
Maybe someone should send this thread to MythBusters.....
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Post by quarry on Jul 4, 2006 8:05:49 GMT -5
Don't some bands tune down a half or whole step simply to accommodate their vocalist? All those Plant Wannabees can only shriek out so many falsetto screams whilst twisting their nether-regions... Dropping the tuning helps add some mileage to those pipes. |
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Post by sumgai on Jul 4, 2006 9:42:22 GMT -5
Maybe someone should send this thread to MythBusters..... +1 for making me spew my morning cuppa! Thanks, Gumbo! The problem for me is, I just visited a friend yesterday at Guitarville (in North Seattle), and I totally forgot all about this conversation. I coulda checked the backs of lots of string packages to see if any of them are listing the tensions, like GHS did at one time (at least, as far as I can recollect). Oh well, that's the way the alzheimers sets in.  But at least I got to manhandle a few Mosrites!!! Seems one of the largest Mosrite collectors in the country just up and dumped a "small" percentage of his collection. Dunno why, but there they are, more than a dozen examples of what the Ventures used in the 60's and 70's to make mucho dinero. Hmmm, I wonder just how much I need that worthless old soul, anyway. ;D sumgai |
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Post by sumgai on Jul 4, 2006 20:03:51 GMT -5
OK, I stopped by GuitarCenter today, on my way home from a holiday celebration/concert at a local beach/park. It seems that GHS strings don't have the tension listings on the back of their string packages anymore. But! One of the salesdudes said "Aha!", and whipped out a package of D'Addario strings. Lo and be-flipping-hold, there on the back was a chart for that set's gauge and tension. Wala! So, off to the homestead I toodle, and right onto the innerweb I go. And sure enough, www.daddariostrings.com has a chart of gauges and tension. It's a whopper, 14 pages in PDF format, but it's got the "right stuff". Check it out at: D'Addario String Tension Chart. Also, someone put together an on-line calculator, using the basic parameters found in this chart. You can access that at: String Tension Calculator. Now, if that's not enough to whet your appetite, let's go a little deeper.  Alan Horvath has a page on his website dealing with this topic, found at: Alan Horvath's String Gauges. He makes what appear to me to be outlandish statements at first, but then he backs them up quite nicely. For my money though, he is abusing his instruments severely, putting way too heavy a string set on them in the name of searching for the ultimate tone. But that's just me. Next, let's have some fun calculating various parameters, and seeing just how the string gauge and the scale length affect the tension required for a given frequency. Go to String Physics, and read the whole page. If something doesn't make sense, or you need a brush-up, check out the links to the right of each topic. I'd say, pay particular attention to the topic of standing waves (the first photo on that page), we'll need to deal with that as we get into harmonics and quack tones, later on this summer. Now, don't you agree that the World Wide Wait is wunnerful? ;D sumgai |
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Post by gumbo on Jul 5, 2006 8:01:47 GMT -5
..ah....a keyboard and too much free time.....
Did you ever wonder WHY the Rat Race rejected you?
:-)
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Post by sumgai on Jul 5, 2006 15:31:56 GMT -5
gumbo, Yes, Doctor P., I understand. I'll take these little pills everyday, I swear. Now, here's the payment for your services......  sumgai |
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Post by quarry on Jul 5, 2006 15:43:04 GMT -5
Sum, Could you please extrapolate the tensions for any/all gauge strings whilst doing a 6 semi-tone up-bend on the whammy bar? Gee, thanks! |
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Post by UnklMickey on Jul 5, 2006 15:46:57 GMT -5
...whilst doing a 6 semi-tone up-bend on the whammy bar?... yikes! someone's been eating their Wheaties. |
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Post by RandomHero on Jul 5, 2006 16:13:26 GMT -5
I'd imagine you just put in the same scale length and string diameter and up the tuning by whatever neccessary. I've been using that calculator at PacificSites for a while now to experiment with different low B/A strings on my 7... your average 7-string set is arranged horribly, they just do the whole "Add another .010 to the lowest one!" thing and it makes that top string floppy.
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Post by sumgai on Jul 5, 2006 16:41:43 GMT -5
quarrry, Well, according to the chart at D'Addario, that's an easy one to answer.... there won't be any tension, the strings will have broken before they can get that tight! I found, after a few moments, that reading the chart is pretty easy. The nominal note name for each string is the third column. (Remember, this isn't just for guitars, so don't get thrown off by other note names.) To the left are higher notes (tightening the string to raise the pitch), and to the right are lower notes. From this, I deduce that, at least at the D'Addario String Company, you aren't supposed to be able to stretch a string more than 3, or possibly 4, semitones. After that, all bets are off. sumgai |
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Post by ChrisK on Jul 5, 2006 19:47:59 GMT -5
sumgai,
Nice cat'lett!
You'll find that info at any good sporting goods store under
"crossbows".
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Post by UnklMickey on Jul 6, 2006 15:22:22 GMT -5
hey, somebody e-mail uncle Ted. he won't need to use his bow at his next concert. he can just use a guitar to propel the arrow he uses to "thwack" the poster of saddam / osama / politician-of-the-day. .jpg)   |
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Alan Horvath has a page on his website dealing with this topic, found at: 
