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Post by JohnH on Apr 7, 2006 18:11:31 GMT -5
This is to present a wiring diagram based on one of John Atchley’s schematics from GN1. It came out of a conversation between Runewalker and myself, concerning options for simple mods to a Strat, looking for the best bang-for-the-buck. The intention was to find a circuit with the following: - A standard 5 way switch, as supplied
- No drilling
- Maximum two extra DPDT switches, as push-pulls
- Stock appearance
- No compromise to basic Strat switch operation
- Greatest possible number of useful extra options, including series, and out-of-phase, plus tone control of the bridge pickup
With these intentions, we decided that John Atchley’s ‘Strat Lovers Strat’, from GN1 was hard to beat. It gives valuable extra capabilities at both ends of the spectrum, with the addition of bright out-of-phase sounds, and deep powerful series combinations. All credit to John for this design. Here is the link to the original. The linked page gives a description and schematic, so on this post I am showing a wiring diagram. It relates to the second option on John’s page, where the two tone controls are assigned one to ‘series’ and one to ‘parallel’ mode. Here is the wiring diagram. Obviously we could not help making a few ‘enhancements’ however, to amend the original (otherwise, there'd be no point in being a Nut): - Separate tone capacitors, so that a different value can be used for series and parallel modes. Tone control caps are a matter of personal choice. I find that lower cap values are appropriate to series combinations
- A treble bleed cap, to avoid muffling as the volume is reduced
- Out-of-phase switch acting on the bridge pup, to provide as many out-of-phase options as possible, including N-B, which is hum-cancelling, and M-B, which is one of Brian Mays sounds
- Use of the second half of the 5-way switch to avoid some ‘coils- hanging- from-hot’ issues
The wiring diagram is based on a standard Fender switch, as shown on their schematics. There are various styles of switch used on Strats. Inset, is a layout to incorporate an 8-in-line switch as used on Squires. The poles and connecting lugs are identified by colour, to help adjust if necessary, to any other switch types. Note that the switch needs to be a two pole switch, as on a standard Strat. This design suits several purposes, extending the Strats basic five sounds to 12, plus tone variations. The highlights include Neck and Bridge in series, and Middle and Bridge in series, either in or out-of-phase, plus a choice of tone controls for the bridge. With such simple parts, it can’t do every combo one might wish for, for example it can't do N M in series. But it provides a relatively simple and inexpensive mod to a Strat, which does not detract from any further changes later. Also, with only soldering work needed, it is fully reversible, meaning that it could also be an option to enhance a more expensive or vintage instrument where minimum intervention is desirable. John
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Post by sumgai on Apr 7, 2006 22:16:33 GMT -5
John, I'm confused. Isn't the 'plus' sign supposed to mean "parallel'? To denote series, we usually see something like 'x', '*', or even '>' (my personal favorite). I'm sure there are others, but in all my ramblings so far, the plus sign has always meant 'parallel'. Any chance this can be changed so that we GuitarNuts don't end up proving that we are Guitar Nuts as we try to read your otherwise nifty setup? Pretty please? ;D sumgai
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Post by JohnH on Apr 7, 2006 22:43:07 GMT -5
sumgai - Thanks for pointing that out. All fixed now
John
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Post by sumgai on Apr 7, 2006 23:08:19 GMT -5
John,
Thanks, now I can cancel that pharmacy order for an extra ration of anti-nutso pills. ;D
sumgai
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Post by sumgai on Apr 8, 2006 16:56:24 GMT -5
John, I have to apologize. I was perusing my own Strat's manual for something a moment ago, and I took a second look at the 'Controls Layout' page. Lo and behold, there in all it's shining glory, is the table showing the switch logic, and what do you think I see? That's right, the plus sign for series, and the forward slash for parallel. My stars, isn't there any kind of system to all this? <throws hands up in the air> I guess we should all sit down and hash this out, but this isn't the thread in which to do that. I just wanted to apologize for sounding like a pompous know-it-all, and to let you know that your choice of symbol for series has been vindicated by at least one off-forum site. I will now sumgai
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NanooMan
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Post by NanooMan on May 29, 2006 0:23:38 GMT -5
First, thank you for taking the time do do such an extensive daigram. It looks awesome. I just need a little direction.
I'm definitely new to much of this, so I have a couple of fundamental questions. Just so I get it right, I need to know which solder spots on the pots are which. The volume pot, for example, has three spots on top and six on the bottom, and I guess the black spot is right on the pot? I know what the actual pot looks like, but I don't want to solder anything backwards. Could you point me in the right direction... literally? It looks like I would sort of be looking right at the bottom of the pots? The six points on the bottoms, however, would be "bent over" in the diagram? Also, I'm guessing that the 1nF, 10nF, and 33nF are the capacitors? I also don't want to wire those guys up backwards.
As you can see, I'm just trying to get my bearings straight. The five way switch also, I'm going to guess is facing left as if left were the neck.
One more question: Would it make a difference if I used puch-push knobs instead of push-pull? Would they look funny? I haven't the chance to see them close up. It really is a preference thing, I think. Do the push-pushes stay in the same relative position, I wonder, or do they sorta sit low and then high. I just thought you might know. Thanks again!
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Post by JohnH on May 29, 2006 6:12:34 GMT -5
The push-pull pots comprise a switch with 6 lugs, fixed to a normal potentiometer (pot), like a volume control, As you note I have drawn them with the switch 'bent over', but the end facing the main body of the pot should be consistent.
As for the 5-way switch, it probably doesn't matter which way round it is, so long as the wires are in the same position relative to each other. the diagram represents he view from the back of the pickgurad as you wire it up.
The only push-push I know of with a volume control, is the Fender S1, which is not generally available, and is not intended for this design. With the push/pulls, to get the switch in the other position, you pull the knob out, or push it back in to return it..
The capacitors can go either way round, as long as their ends are connected to the lugs as shown.
the large black spot on the volume pot is a solder to the body of the pot. An alternative which I prefer is to solder to a washer, which then goes under the shaft of the pot.
Hweres a 'watch it'. THe diagram assumes that the push-pulls hav the centre switcg lugs connected to the rear lugs when pushed in. If this is reversed (I believe that occurs on some switches). then the front and back lugs need to be swapped - easy to do.
good luck with this
John
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NanooMan
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Post by NanooMan on May 29, 2006 15:56:51 GMT -5
One more question. Do push/pulls work with regular fender knobs? I know they pull off, so it would be funny but quite inconvenient to have a knob pull off on stage.
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Post by Mini-Strat_Maine on May 29, 2006 17:56:36 GMT -5
One more question. Do push/pulls work with regular fender knobs? I know they pull off, so it would be funny but quite inconvenient to have a knob pull off on stage. Sometimes to pull a knob off to work on the guitar, you need to pry it up first. (I think there was a thread about that on here awhile back. Some good "non-invasive" techniques like a guitar pick for a no-mar prying implement, or a shoelace looped under the knob and pulled.) They're usually pretty secure, unless something's gotten badly worn over time. So if the knurling on the knobs and on the pot shafts are a snug fit, they should work okay. In case I didn't mention this earlier, I've seen some aftermarket knobs listed with "fine" or "coarse" knurling, so probably some pots come with a different type, too. Just make sure everything matches and is lined up right before you press the knobs back on.
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NanooMan
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Post by NanooMan on Jun 3, 2006 13:50:23 GMT -5
Where do I pick up these capacitors? I see everything in microfarads on sites, so what do I need to do or where should I go?
One more thing: I see that these caps reach a good ways. Do I extend them, or will they actually reach?
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Post by Mini-Strat_Maine on Jun 3, 2006 16:00:43 GMT -5
Where do I pick up these capacitors? I see everything in microfarads on sites, so what do I need to do or where should I go? Any good electronics supply place should have them. "Conventional wisdom" is that metallized film or polyester film are better than ceramic or other types. One very popular brand is Vishay/Sprague "Orange Drops," which can be ordered from someplace like Mouser. ( www.mouser.com) The 100-volt (100 VDC) ones will be fine for tone caps. The 1 nanofarad cap is the same as a 0.001 µF (microfarad); that'd be the one for the "volume kit." (AKA "treble bleed" or "treble retainer.") For any other conversions, go here www.onlineconversion.com/electric_capacitance.htm, enter the value and select "From" and "To" on the pull-down lists. So a 10 nanofarad would be a 0.01 µF in the Mouser catalog (page 628), or Mouser #75-225P100V0.01; I'd probably go with a 75-225P100V0.015 or 0.015 µF, but maybe that's just me. Okay, pop quiz: How much is a 33 nanofarad cap in microfarads? If you mean the leads on them, they're probably more than long enough to solder onto the right places on a tone or volume pot without having to be extended.
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Post by Runewalker on Jun 3, 2006 17:17:04 GMT -5
On the cap extended lead question. I just built this scheme for one I am selling. You do have to solder an extension onto the cap lead. Not always necessary, but I usually take insulation I have stripped and cover the bare wire if is over a long run.
This is a great little design. It does not do as much as JHs TM 2 but it does a lot. One setting not on the TM2 that this one has is:
N/M Local Parallel, with the Bridge in System Series. A very nice little setting. Beefs up the Strat, yet adds articulation and spread that the B/N does not .
Let me also re-emphasize that the JAtchley shield procedure is important. I know that goes without saying, but combos like the N/B are not hum cancelling, so the shielding really helps.
It is not as difficult as the TM2, but it is still challenging.
One last thing, I think JH mentions somewhere that the P/Ps have different conventions. Following this wiring diagram with the Mouser Alphas reverses the action, so you pull up to get the standard strat settings.
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NanooMan
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Post by NanooMan on Jun 6, 2006 3:06:35 GMT -5
100v is good for volume, also?
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Post by JohnH on Jun 6, 2006 7:45:05 GMT -5
If you mean capacitors with a of 100 volts, that rating is fine for anything in a guitar. there are no high voltages in a guitar.
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NanooMan
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Post by NanooMan on Jun 9, 2006 2:17:32 GMT -5
Hey, everyone. I've been working hard at studying the elecronic principles of guitars. I'm going to do the Strat Lover's Strat on my own, but in JH's thread, he mentioned that you can't get Neck and Middle in series. I thought to myself, "Well there is still a third pot to put a switch on. I wonder if I can make it work, even if it's good for that combo only. This is my attempt, and it may be good for that combo. This post is purely for criticism. I keep finding problems with it myself, so I know you guys will. There aren't many options with the third switch activated, but it may prove useful for at least that one NM in series combo.
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hiho
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Post by hiho on Jul 29, 2007 23:25:08 GMT -5
Hi Guys, I would like to wire my guitar as per the strat lovers other strat wiring diagram however my switch only has 7 terminal where the genuine fender and squire have 8. My switch has a center temrminal (connected to the center of the switch lever pin) that is usually connected to the vol pot so i assume that it is the signal wire. There are three terminals on either side of it, one lot is connected to the pickups, the other to the tone pots. How do i adapt the strat lovers other strat wiring to this type of switch or am i better off going for the original J. Atchley design? Thanks folks Matt
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Post by JohnH on Jul 30, 2007 1:17:20 GMT -5
Hiho - The diagram that I did assumes that both poles are seperate. But I see tha the original version has them joined, so you could follow that with your 7-lug switch which seems to have a common connection for the poles. Also, you could alternatively consider this more recent design ("Dual sound"), which only needs to use one half of the 5-way switch and so could work with yours. It is a bit more complex but it does a lot more: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=1169252165John
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bardsley
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Post by bardsley on Aug 1, 2007 0:55:59 GMT -5
Hi, I've been looking at this wiring schematic and also the "dual sound" one, which both look interesting, and I want to try them out. One thing though: in both of these schematics you use 500k pots. Unless I'm mistaken, the pots I currently use are 250k in my strat, and I'm reluctant to change these values seeing as they tend to influence the tone. Is it going to work if I use 250k pots instead of the 500k ones? Is there a particular reason why you've used 500k pots? Thanks
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Post by JohnH on Aug 1, 2007 4:56:26 GMT -5
hi Bardsley - welcome to GN2 and thankyou for your interest.
I put 500k pots in these beacuse they put less load on the pickups, offering the possibility of a slightly brighter tone. I think this is important for designs such as these which include series combinations. Pickups in series have higher combined inductance and resistance than single pups, and need a lower load (ie a higher resistance for pots) to avoid dulling the sound. Its the same reason why humbuckers tend to be used with higher value pots compared to single coils.
But also, if you like the sound with the 250k pots, it is still there, just by rolling back the tone control. At full volume and max treble, the sound of 250k pots for volume and tone, is very closely matched with two 500k pots by turning the tone pot back to where it has a resistance of about 170k, which would be 6-7 of a log taper tone pot.
So theres not much to lose!
cheers
John
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bardsley
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Post by bardsley on Aug 1, 2007 9:19:43 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply. You're right, I guess with three pickups in series especially could easily sound very dull. I've never been that happy with 500k pots with good single coils, but maybe it's because I feel wierd having the default tone at 6-7. I'll take your word for it that it's basically the same tone. Thanks.
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strattones
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Post by strattones on Mar 18, 2010 22:13:13 GMT -5
Hello. I ordered the parts necessary to put this design into one of my strats. I have a couple of quick questions though to make sure I don't mess something up.
1. The red wires in the diagram represent the (+) lines from the pickups while the green represent the ground wires, correct?
2. If I use shield grounding, do I need the blue wires connected to the far left terminals of each tone pot or can I rely on the pots' connection to the shielding on the bottom of the pickguard?
3. Where is a good place to purchase the terminal rings to connect the grounding wires to the tone pot? I've had trouble finding one online that will fit a split shaft pot.
Thanks for the help! I'm really looking forward to installing this in my guitar. 12 tones is a great improvement over 5.
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Post by ashcatlt on Mar 18, 2010 23:26:25 GMT -5
1) + and ground are meaningless unless connected to something. This particular wiring is a perfect illustration of that fact. In the "standard" parallel/normal-phase setting, you are correct.
2) Those connections are signal returns. We tend not to trust them to the shield.
3) I don't personally know of a source for these. I do know that the pots on our guitars usually come with acceptably conductive washers. You can solder at least one smaller gauge wire to this washer and still fit it over the shaft.
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strattones
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Post by strattones on Mar 19, 2010 9:23:42 GMT -5
Thanks ashcatlt, that's very helpful.
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Post by JohnH on Mar 19, 2010 15:20:49 GMT -5
Good luck with that Strattones - I hope it works out well. Ash has covered your questions. Just one point on the treble bleed capacitor that I showed: Since drawing that diagram, I now add a 220k resistor in parallel with a 1nF treble-bleed cap on the volume pot, which makes the sound more consistent in tone as you reduce volume. But the treble-bleed circuit is optional anyway, you can leave it off if you wish.
John
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yoshisakan
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Post by yoshisakan on Mar 20, 2010 13:01:44 GMT -5
Ok So I just wired my pick guard to the specifications above. The pick up selecter works but my tone knobs have no effect in any combination. Some combonitions affect the volume. All three pots can control the volume at times but not of respective pickups. The only difference that my wiring has is that instead of using capacitors, I used wire in place of them. I tried omiting the connections all together and it had the same effect as it does now with them wired. Any suggestions?
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Post by newey on Mar 20, 2010 13:19:05 GMT -5
Yoshi-
Hello and Welcome-
Without capacitors, you don't have tone controls.
The idea of the Strat-lover's Strat is that you have one tone control for the parallel selections, one for the series selections (as opposed to the normal Strat configuration where one tone is for the neck pup and the other is for the middle). By having separate tone controls for series/parallel, you avoid interaction of the controls in the series position.
Do you mean that you disconnected the wires you used in place of the capacitors? If so, your result is what we would expect.
Put capacitors in, as shown in the diagram, and you should be fine. If not, report back and we'll walk you through any further problems.
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yoshisakan
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Post by yoshisakan on Mar 20, 2010 17:09:44 GMT -5
Wow, thanks for the quick response.
Ok well I'm back from Radioshack with unanswered questions... Go Figure..
Here's what I bought:
.001uF cap for the Volume pot. .01uF cap for the middle tone pot
I needed a .033uF for the third pot, but they didn't have them, so I bought one .022 and a .01. Wired in parallel they should effectively have .032uF which is close to what I need. I don't know exactly how to wire them to make them work though. Any help?
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Post by newey on Mar 20, 2010 17:31:57 GMT -5
Wire the two caps together, and then wire them to the 2nd tone control just as shown in the diagram. Hope that helps-
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yoshisakan
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Post by yoshisakan on Mar 20, 2010 19:27:11 GMT -5
Ok, thanks for the help everyone. I have everything wired correctly except for the pick up selector switch. This one is a squire. Here is a picture: Prior to disconnecting this, each of the three pickups had a connection with the left three contacts, their grounds were the volume pot's base. A wire going from the middle contact was going to the mid tone pot, I believe. (I am doing this on two guitars. The first had the fender switch as shown per the diagram and that one works.)
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Post by newey on Mar 20, 2010 19:58:43 GMT -5
First off, please downsize that photo so that it doesn't blow off the side of the page, requiring everyone to scroll horizontally.
The switch you have is one of the cheaper varieties, which has only a single common pole (the one in the center). To do this scheme, you need a standard Strat switch with 2 common poles, one for each half of the switch.
JohnH's diagram shows this wired with a regular American Strat-style switch, and in an inset he shows the wiring for the import style Strat switch, which has all 8 terminals in a row, with the 2 commons in the center.
So, you'll need to replace the switch you have with one or the other variety shown in John's diagram. Notice that both common poles are wired independently in this scheme, so you need them both.
In normal Strat wiring, the 2 commons are jumpered together, meaning that your single-common pole switch will work fine, no jumper needed. But not for this mod!
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