tele series/parallel

[flateric]

Hey guys,
Can anyone help me with a schematic for a standard tele (sc neck and sc bridge, standard 3-way selector switch) but with an on/on/on dpdt switch added to go from series to parallel when both pups are selected?
Is the dpdt on/on/on switch type the right one to be using?
Will it be over-ridden when either front or rear pup is selected on its own?
Cheers!

[lpf3]

flateric

I'm pretty sure you need an on-on switch for that series link

Have you seen these ?
www.guitarcenter.com/Fender-4-Way-Telecaster-Pickup-Selector-Mod-Switch-361330-i1130082.gc

If you haven't already bought a switch , this seems like a nice , neat way to get what you want

1-N
2-N+B series
3-N+B parallel
4-B

Good luck ,


-lpf3

EDIT : Eric , I'm also under the impression that , when using a DPDT switch , if you select the "switched " pup solo then you won't get a signal if you're in series mode ( I'm not 100% sure on that one )

[flateric]

I'm thinking along the same lines - get a 4-pos'n switch for the s/p thing
www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2007/Feb/The_Telecaster_Mod_Guide.aspx
Maybe I can use my switch as a 'direct-thru' switch to take the pots and caps out of the circuit [!shriek! !horror!].

[lpf3]

flat-

I never use my tone controls & plan to try that " uncorked " thing on at least one guitar .......

And thanks for the magazine .



-lpf3

[ChrisK]

Can anyone help me with a schematic for a standard tele (sc neck and sc bridge, standard 3-way selector switch) but with an on/on/on dpdt switch added to go from series to parallel when both pups are selected?

Yes.

Is the dpdt on/on/on switch type the right one to be using?

No. It has three positions whereas you only specify two. The switch also has to change two things whereas the ON-ON-ON switch can only effect one thing at a time, per position change.

You need a DPDT aka a push pull pot.

Will it be over-ridden when either front or rear pup is selected on its own?

No.

In fact, the DPDT will select the series combination REGARDLESS of the three-way's position since having to change TWO things to effect series is dumb.

Using a DPDT push pull volume pot can effect this and, since series is the "boost" mode, your hand is already on the volume knob.


The Premier Guitar mag link is interesting, but has some errors.

As a guideline you can say the higher the resistance, the warmer the tone.

While one can say this, it's backwards; a higher resistance pot does not make for a warmer tone, but a brighter tone.

This is valid for both the pots and the tone cap.

Caps don't have resistance.

The larger the resistance, the brighter the pickup(s) since there is less loading which affects the harmonics most noticeably. The larger the cap, the lower the filter cutoff frequency (pitch), the depth of said effect determined by both the cap and resistor (and the pickups and the volume pot and the cable and etc).

Personally I use selected 3300pF Orange Drop caps and 250k pots for a classic, vintage Telecaster tone.

Well, tone is a personal thing, but the 0.0033 uF (3n3 F) cap is neither classic nor vintage.

Orange Drop caps (and most electronic components made thru volume production) are, aside from capacitance value variations, virtually identical. "Selecting" them (method unspecified - perchance by "produce squeezing") is bordering on canned feldergarb (patooie hooey). Pots have up to a +/- 30% tolerance, so there may be some merit to selecting them based on, uh, something.

This will guarantee that your tone will always be defined and full of life and color,

And yet we enjoy poking fun at the high-end audiophiles audioflies.

the tone will get clinically dull and liveless.

?Liveless, perchance "deathful"? (Oh, "darker",....gothful?)

because the standard pickup is too "boxy" sounding for my tastes.

Hmmm, I remember Jackie Stewart doing colo(u)r commentary on auto racing back in the day ("It's a boxy looking motorcar...."), but I presume that this is somehow differently specificless.


Now, speaking of "selected" capacitors.....

Scroll most of the way down, it's worth the "trip".

This is interesting;

Bumblebee .022uF, 400V Capacitor, Vintage Reproduction of a classic Tone Capacitor as used by Gibson in the 50's.

The "vintage" reproduction of a "classic" tone capacitor..... and only $60.

This is marketing, and at $15, a steal (by whom?)
"Hovland MusiCaps enable sensitive audio circuits to achieve their ultimate level of performance. By far the most musically accurate capacitor available, MusiCaps provide a dramatic improvement in clarity, focus and dynamics when used in critical new designs, or as an upgrade to[presumably pedestrian] existing tube or solid- state components. The no-compromise design of MusiCaps dictates a painstaking manufacturing process using costly materials. The result is a quality product which, while not inexpensive, delivers immediately discernible benefits and will over the long run prove an exceptional value. 5% tolerance.
"

Ah, so it's an investment. I'll take 1,000 shares..

The original legendary Orange Drop Capacitors. 100 VDC, 10% tolerance.

Oh, I get it, At a paltry $2.00 each, compared to the "gems" above, these must really suck (and apparently need to be "selected").


Now, to be fair, has-sound (?and-has-yer-money?) do have a nice selection of pots.

and good luck pimping your Tele-Babies!

Is this good or bad (or even recommended)?


Oh yeah, if yer not distracted by that there shiny DP4T Tele-blaster switch, let me know and I'll show how to do this.

[wolf]

flateric,
If you don't want the hassle of tracking down that switch, here's a solution using only 2 SPDT toggle switches:


There are four possible switching arrangements -
1) Neck only
2) Bridge only
3) Both switches up - pickups in parallel
4) Both switches down - pickups in series.

Here at GuitarNuts, that circuit was independently discovered by myself and several other members. (More complex circuits were also "discovered" for double humbucker guitars but no sense getting into the complexity of those).

Anyway, I like toggle switches and don't like those special switches so my recommendation is to try that circuit --- provided you don't mind drilling holes into your guitar.

[lpf3]

ChrisK ,
Then can I take it that this is not an issue ?

EDIT : Eric , I'm also under the impression that , when using a DPDT switch , if you select the "switched " pup solo then you won't get a signal if you're in series mode ( I'm not 100% sure on that one )

I read that in an "older" how to book .......
~/~/~/~/~/~/~/~/~/~/~/~/~/~/~/~/~/~/~/~/~/~/~/~/~/~/

Oh yeah, if yer not distracted by that there shiny DP4T Tele-blaster switch, let me know and I'll show how to do this.

yes , I'm interested also , I 'll have this project coming up soon - series/parallel + phase using 2 push pots .

Also -

Wolf , how come you don't like the 4-way switches ? Is it personal preference/convenience or ..... ?

Thanks guys


-lpf3

[wolf]

lpf3
There are a few reasons I don't like those 4 way switches (or those 24 lug super switches either) Probably the least important of which is
• price. What does that 4 way switch go for - 18 bucks? Maybe that is not too much of a concern but 2 SPDT switches cost a lot less.

• Toggle switches (if wired and mounted properly) give you a much better intuitive view of what's going on. If you see a toggle switch on the left side that is down and a switch to the right of it that is up - I'll wager that means you've got only the neck pickup active.
Right switch down left one up - hmm I guess that means bridge pickup only. Both up - parallel Both down -series. With that 4 way switch is there any way to guess what position is doing what?

• Availability. Let's suppose you are going to play a gig in just a few hours and discover your guitar isn't working properly. (series or parallel doesn't work or whatever). Well just rewire it. Oh wait - do you have an extra 4 position toggle switch? Well, you can just run right out and find one at the local Radio Shack. Wait - they don't sell those? Well, that's going to make things a little difficult isn't it? Yes, you could go to your local Guitar Center but I think that Radio Shacks are more prevalent than Guitar Center stores.

• Maintenance. Okay that 4 way switch (or even worse) that 24 lug Super-Switch stops working. But let's suppose it is only 1 setting? Well too bad because those switches are an all or nothing operation. You can't say "Could I order the components that control terminal lugs 17 and 18"? So you have to rewire the whole darned thing because maybe one contact isn't conducting properly. One of my circuits (The Super Seven Switching) is pretty complex. Yet, if one of my switches goes bad I replace that one switch instead of replacing a 24 lug monstrosity.

• Versatility. As stated above, Super Seven Switching has seven toggle switches that yield about 72 different tones in a 2 humbucker guitar. No matter how creative you get with a Super Switch you will have to settle for five tones. Maybe there's others you'd like to have but that's too bad because you can't wire in a 6th choice, a seventh, and so on.

I've got other reasons I don't like those Super Switches, but I guess stating 5 is probably enough for now.

[sumgai]

Would we be talking about wiring up that magcal 4-way Tele-Blaster^® switch like this?




But to answer flateric's question directly, no, the extra switch won't cause a dead spot when selecting either the Bridge or the Neck pickup only.


Discussion:

wolf's reasons above withstanding, I have issues with more than one switch. Unlike wolf, I don't ever look at my 5-way switch (I do have two, we'll get to that in a moment), I know where it is at all times, both by feel and by tone. To me, it's the same thing as being able to play while blind-folded - if you can't do it, that doesn't make you a bad player, but it does make you a player who hasn't yet learned his fretboard, and hasn't yet learned to make his fingers go where his brain intended without external guidance. Try it sometime....... can you play a sustained lick that covers two octaves or more without looking? If you've been playing for a year or more, you certainly should be able to. Not that you have to, mind you, I'm just saying that this is a skill that the extremely good players can't live without.

Ditto for one's controls, be they pots, switches, or whatever else one has mounted up to his rig. You should know by both feel and tone just where you're set, at all times. It's not a crime to be "in the dark" so to speak, but that's exactly the issue - you are (or will be, when you get better) often called upon to play in a dark venue, where either you're 3/4 blind from the lack of light, or else you're 9/10 blinded by the 2KW of halogen stage lighting. Neither scenario lends itself well to visual observation of your current status - you'd better be able to use alternate means to ascertain such information, that's all I'm saying here.

Now, I do have Fender's "fabled" S1 switching on my Volume control, the axe came with it. I like it, but it's not as fast to operate in the heat of the moment as a toggle, or perhaps even a regular push-pull pot. It's quick, but sometimes the knob doesn't come up, if I'm too light on the touch. I then need to stab at it again, with a bit more force, and that takes time away from picking, as you might imagine. Other than that, it's a good concept - stealthy, seemingly reliable (so far), and because it's a 4PDT, there're a helluva lot of possibilities available for the average NutzHouse denizen. But for sheer simplicity of operation, you have to remember¹, Leo didn't decide to use that 3-way telephone circuit switch just because the shop floor was littered with them. ;D

HTH





sumgai


1. George Santayana said it best: "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.". If nothing else, Leo should be studied for his nearly anal-retentive habit of listening to his customers, and folding back those comments into his products. IOW, he didn't use the same switch(es) as everyone else, and for good reason. Think about it.

[wolf]

Sumgai,
That's fine with me if you aren't of a toggle switch mentality. This board is always filled with differing opinions. Heck if Bo Diddley (may he rest in peace) were in this discussion, he might be arguing that the guitar body has to be rectangular.

Anyway, sumgai, whenever one of those 24 lug super switches stops working and you have to replace it, be sure to post how much fun it was. ;D

[ChrisK]

OK, opening given to preach.

sermon

What does that 4 way switch go for - 18 bucks? Maybe that is not too much of a concern but 2 SPDT switches cost a lot less.

Yes, but, the toggle switches worth using (the ones with manufacturer's data sheets) cost about $6 to $10 each. These have gold plated (or at least gold flashed) internal contacts and are rated to reliably switch 0.4 VA as a dry contact (as in NO wetting current required *).


* What's this? Well, it's the minimum current required to reliably keep contacts clean so that they can continue to switch reliably. A "Dry Contact" rating means that NO minimum current is required. A pickup generates a current MUCH LOWER than that required by all non-gold plated switches for the guaranteed low contact resistance switching life. Fortunately, a contact that has excessive resistance (in the Ohms to tens of Ohms) won’t significantly affect these signals until it oxidizes completely.

Oh wait - do you have an extra 4 position toggle switch?

What? You mean that you don’t?

When you buy switches, pots, knobs, strings, food, and chocolate chip cookies you don’t buy an extra one(ssssss) just in case one is defective (you can always return it later after your hair isn’t ablaze, well, the cookies never seem to go back). When you design something, you document it. When you use any part, you have spares close at hand. As in if you play out, you have them along with, uh, tools in yer traveling tool box.

I have a ground water sump pump in my house. For some strange reason, I have a spare one on a shelf (stores are rarely open during floods). I own a number of pistols. I seem to have spare magazines and ammo. Go figure.

“Judgement comes from experience.

Experience comes from poor judgment.”

/sermon

Leo didn't decide to use that 3-way telephone circuit switch just because the shop floor was littered with them.

Uh, no, he used the two pole three way non-spring return inter-office intercom blade lever switch because the electronics industry “ground” was actually littered with them and, um, uh, they were commodity-cheap, and, um, war surplus.

[wolf]

ChrisK
Thank you for that explanation of switch quality. I will admit I don't buy the most expensive toggle switches but I do get some good deals when I buy in large quantities.

In my case, it would be somewhat expensive to go for top quality switches. I recently finished my seventh guitar with Super Seven Switching. That means, over a period of about 2 years, I have used at least 42 SPDT switches and a mere 7 DPDT. I don't perform on stage and so if a switch fails, it's not going to stop "the show" cold. Yes, if the need were critical, I'd go for higher quality. As I said, the cost was the least important factor for my choice of switches.

Do I have "spare" switches? Darned tootin' !!! I believe I bought 100 SPDT's a few years ago and so I don't think there's much of a danger in my running out any time soon.

And yes, I too have a supply of firearms even though I'm from the #1 liberal state - Massachusetts. Thinking back to Hurricane Katrina and how "masterfuly" that was handled by Shrub and his Arabian Horse Judge / Director of FEMA, I'm so glad I realized long ago that you can't rely on any outside help during a crisis.
Speak softly and carry a big stick as Theodore Roosevelt said.

[ChrisK]

The rules of successful self-defense:

1. Don't go there if it can be avoided.
2. Run away.
3. Hide
4. Be prepared (uh, like practice - when did Noah build the ark? Before the flood).
5. Be willing.

[flateric]

Wow, thanks I enjoyed reading thru the flurry of posts that follwed my quetion, only I have completely forgotten the question now due to laughing so much at ChrisK's marvellously scathing resume of the HAS-sound bumblebee site. I guess some of you here will be familiar with the TDPRI telecaster site that has regular forays into the astonishingly anal search for authentic $40 resistors to capture that true worn-out magnet pickup sound of a '56 tele. I'm swinging towards aethism on this one but I do enjoy the banter.
Good work, chaps!

[newey]

Good points on both sides of the switch-selection question. Two points no one has made, however:

First, with regard to Wolf's suggestion that toggles offer visual clues, vs. Sumgai's point that, real world, you're doing it by feel anyway: I will only add that one can get used to dealing with just about any arrangement of controls with enough time for familiarization. Play the axe in question enough, and it all becomes second nature, whether visually or tactilely.

Second, no one has mentioned what is undoubtedly the number one reason people would give for choosing the 4-way over toggles- to keep the stock appearance of the guitar, in guitars which are factory-equipped with a lever switch. I don't much care, myself, and obviously Wolf doesn't, but if you were to do a Family-Feud type of survey, the number one response as to "Why the 4-way?" would be "to keep it stock".

I actually prefer that my guitars do not look like everybody else's, but I recognize I'm in a weird minority (q.v., my Avatar . . .)

[lpf3]

flateric-
Yeah, this is turning out to be a great thread

wolf-
Massachussetts , huh ? I was born in Lawrence ( near Boston ) , lived there till my family moved to L. A. when I was 10 ( don't worry , I found 'em ;D . )

I can relate to your cost explanation - I have a few 3 & 5 way , several push/push pots , a couple DPDT on-on already . I could buy a different switch but really hate not to use what I've got first

Availability - well looks like ya get stuck with my bad pot story ;D
My vol. pot went out one night during a gig , every now & then I had to bang on it to get any sound . The next day ( Sunday ), no guitar stores open & I'm a couple hundred miles from home , so I had to get one from radio shack - but they only had the kind with about a 2-inch shaft ; I had to work that night so I took it & decided to live with it till I got home . Well a few nights later we played at a club where they had "jam" night & I ended up lettin some guy ( no relation ) play my guitar while I sat in the audience ...... You should have seen the look on his face when he went to adjust the volume ;D ;D
( If ya hear any other bad pot stories , that was just someone who looked like me . Really . )

sumgai - I can play by feel some , but I do have to look now & then . At first that's what I liked about maple 'boards , ya can see 'em in the dark . Also what I like about push/push pots - way easier to shift on the fly ..........

Chris - enjoyed your review of HASsound's site , funny thing is I'm gonna save about 20 bucks by buying some pickup covers from him

Gotta love it......




-lpf3

[ashcatlt]

The first gig I played outside of my home town was at the Knitting Factory. Apparently the old one. I got to play slide to songs I don't know in total darkness. There was a projector with some shaky 8mm film but it wasn't pointed in my direction. Other than that the only light was cigarettes.

People said I was incredible.

Ergonomics is a good thing to consider in these matters, but I think the original idea with the push/pull made as much sense as the 4-way. Course, was it me, I'd replace the pickups with lil killers or somesuch and replace the pots with rotaries ala the 3 Humbuckers no pots strat.

Now that guitar gives no meaningful indication of what pickup is on at any given time. The only way to tell is by memory ("where did I leave it?"), or sound (not always easy, depending on pedal status), or by turning the rotary switch to one extreme or the other and counting the clicks. Then, I often forget which way is Other Coil and which is Off. Try handing that to somebody at a jam night!

I've decided that since my feet don't really do much I'd put them in charge of drastic changes in volume and tone. I never touch any of the controls on the guitar* while playing. If I want more crunch I hit the thing harder. If I want clean I don't hit it so hard. And I set up my Boss Autowah to just subtley open up the extreme hi-end as things get louder. If I need a more drastic change I'll step on a pedal.

I think the point of most of that was you should think about how you intend to use the guitar and figure out which way will best work for you.

* Except some special effect volume swells, which are much easier w/my foot. Course, now that I've got a kill switch...

[lpf3]

sumgai -

Now, I do have Fender's "fabled" S1 switching on my Volume control, the axe came with it.

Took me a minute I must be gettin slow in my old age or sumpthin but I had to go back & reread your post before I "got " what switch yer talkin about . I saw one ( & tried it ) , I liked it too but my fingers are just too fat to use it smoothly

I do like the push/ push pots where the whole knob goes up & down ( can't miss ;D )

Ash-

Jam nite , hell , sounds like I'd need an education to work that guitar



-lpf3

[ashcatlt]

Usually I just say "Turning the knobs makes it sound different. Flipping the switch turns it off."

[ChrisK]

the number one response as to "Why the 4-way?" would be "to keep it stock".

I don't get this whole "keep it stock thing". You don't have to drill any holes in that "oh my God I sure hope that this guitar will turn out to be valuable someday - pre-pre-pre-pre-never gonna be valuable" vintage stock pickguard since someone invented replacement pickguards. Just swap out the whole blessed assembly.

In a sense (if I can find any therein), it's almost as if folks don't quite believe that they own their guitars. Maybe they just rent them in their minds (I DO however, recommend NOT modifying RENTAL instruments).

I extrapolate the replacement parts model. I use replacement parts for the whole guitar. I get one that's the way that I want it.
It's mine.


Does everyone really believe that there is another "slug" of "boomers" coming along that cares about the toys of OUR generation? Aside from the true limited production (oh crap, nobody actually wanted them much then) stuff ('58 - '59 LP fer instance) that commands serious coin, much of the vintage stuff was and still is crap, made with the cheapest components available at the time (it's a business Sparky).

Things are only worth what someone is willing to pay. Old Blackface amps didn't magically start to sound any better, people became (re)interested in them and just became willing to pay more for them.

I turned down a blackface circuit '68 Princeton Reverb last week (that still had the hang tags on it) going for $1,800. In my last start-up, my company car was a Mitsubishi 3000 VR4. I drove it into the ground (figuratively, I put many a mile of fun on it) and got rid of it. Some day it will be vintage, someone else's vintage.

Course, now that I've got a kill switch...

Oh, Binary Amplitude Modulation (Bemo10). (Pronounce the number, you know, like "loo".)

Flipping the switch turns it off."

Only if you turn the Flippin' switch.

I've decided that since my feet don't really do much I'd put them in charge of............

Thank God that you're not going to downsize them....

[wolf]

Chris K

I don't get this whole "keep it stock thing".

I don't either. Nowadays, even though people are reluctant to rewire, drill, etc. their guitars I'd say people were even more hesitant a few decades ago.
I remember back in the 1960's people would tell stories how someone tried to modify a guitar and it led to their death or it caused damage so severe it wasn't even worth fixing it.

I'm glad times have changed.

[newey]

Not too surprising that the consensus of this hard-core modders group is "Never mind stock- mod away!" I agree.

But my point about people wanting to keep a stock appearance, I don't think the issue is so much the resale value, or "future vintage" concerns, as it is that they just want their Fender (or whatnot) to look like a stock Fender (or a stock whatnot) now, while they're playing it.

IOW, it's cool to have a modded Tele but it still should look like the Fender they just sprang $$$ to get, and adding switches somehow detracts from its "Fenderness".

Again, I don't understand this mindset, but it's out there, I've heard it expressed several times by different players.

These are probably the same people who think "relic-ing" a guitar improves tone . . .

[ChrisK]

Perhaps. As I've become a relic, I tend to believe that my tone has improved, so much so that I'm now a legend (in my mind).

[flateric]

Sorry to drag this back on topic again. I ordered a fender 4-way switch off ebay and fitted it last night (together with some of those wilkinson brass compensated saddles).
It's great - the two distinct mid-position tones, really nice. I've ditched the idea ofr adding a phase reverse switch , why would I go to extra trouble to make the guitar sould thin and weedy just so i can have another tone option I'll never use?

[wolf]

flateric,

I've ditched the idea ofr adding a phase reverse switch , why would I go to extra trouble to make the guitar sould thin and weedy just so i can have another tone option I'll never use?

Yes, the idea of phase switching isn't all that it is cracked up to be.
Still, whenever I do add a phase switch, I always try to find a DPDT red rocker switch.
www.1728.com/guitar6.htm
I don't give a damn about stock appearance - if you're gonna modify, why not go nuts???
Oh, I've also modified my Gibson SG Standard with a red rocker switch (and those 6 toggle switches) but I haven't taken a picture of it just yet. Just mentioning that in case someone says that it is one thing to "mod" a $100 guitar but quite another to "mod" an expensive one which will only increase exponentially in value. I don't care if it takes away a certain amount of "SG ness".

[JohnH]

I'm glad flaterics tele worked out, and I think the 4 way switch is a good option.

One day I'll do a Tele, and I'll have toggles for series and phase and red-rhodes tone control bypass on the neck pup is series mode, which would greatly extend the range of those series in and out of phase options.

On the mod or not to mod debate, for your own use, I say go nutz and build what you want. I do think though that if you want to sell the guitar later, mods dont usualy enhance the value, and probably decrease it, especially nutzy ones. Recently, I decided I'd sell my old Tonemonster2, which was a low value Strat copy with some kick-butt toggle switching and blending. I went all out on ebay with photos, links to the design here on GN2 and sound samples too. Starting price was just enough to cover the parts and low purchase cost, and it sold for just that price. Only one bidder 'got' and wanted it, and he was very happy with it, but despite lots of watchers, no one else bid.

John

[flateric]

I guess its the same thing as painting your house magnolia inside if you want the best chance of selling it. Sort of. Someof the more complex mods can be very personal taste/preference and if you're playing live, a lot can be too much hassle to be of practical use.

[ChrisK]

I have a sketch of the 3-way with a DPDT for overriding series.

I got side-tracked making a few TeleTemplates, which I hope to complete and post (one actually with the wiring for this).


I had started a Baja My Tele thread a ways back, but never got around to posting it. It will use the 3-way and two DPDT push pull pots; one to do the overriding series and the other to do phase.

Like the Fender Tele Baja, series normal phase is, well, normal, but parallel out of phase is capacitively coupled for the "half out of phase" position.