lpdeluxe
Meter Reader 1st Class
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
|
Post by lpdeluxe on Jun 25, 2008 8:26:54 GMT -5
I recently acquired a '98 Epiphone Sheraton II guitar. Very nice but the pickups sucked. I am replacing them with Seymour Duncans (Jazz/JB pair) and I wonder if anyone has any tips to neaten the wiring? I am using new mini-pots, switch and jack as I have heard stories about the standard electronics.
The Sheraton is a thin semi-hollow body with a center block; unlike Gibson ES-335s (later ones, anyway) the center block has not been routed for access from the back pickup, so everything has to go in and out of the treble f-hole (max 1" x 3/4").
I have mastered the art of taking out/installing the controls/switch/output jack (although my ex-wife asked if the f-holes were scorched from my language -- I guess she knows me pretty well) so my question is really about how to dress the wiring and how to figure the length so it can be dressed to not be seen by looking directly into the f-hole.
The schematic I'm following is the standard Gibson 2-v 2-t diagram, as on the Les Paul. I made a cardboard template to construct the assembly but somehow I didn't allow enough length in some wires, so two wires run from volume to tone (or vice versa) right under the f-hole.
Thanks for any insights.
|
|
|
Post by D2o on Jun 25, 2008 9:10:55 GMT -5
..... and I wonder if anyone has any tips to neaten the wiring? I am using new mini-pots, switch and jack as I have heard stories about the standard electronics. ..... ..... my question is really about how to dress the wiring and how to figure the length so it can be dressed to not be seen by looking directly into the f-hole. ..... ..... somehow I didn't allow enough length in some wires, so two wires run from volume to tone (or vice versa) right under the f-hole. Hi LP, I was going to ask you what kind of wire you currently use before offering this, but I think I'll just let it fly. I had an issue that was similar in nature, although it was in a shielded guitar with a pickguard. The issue was that the cavity is really tight with narrow channels and sharp corners, and I just couldn't get all of the wires to behave themselves the way I needed them to. Then I remembered Wolf's excellent idea: phone wire. You know, the rigid, vinyl covered wire that is in walls and runs along the baseboards. That vinyl cover contains (usually) four small, solid copper, vinyl coated wires - the vinyl coating is even four different colours! It's beautiful to work with because it's small, it seems to work really well, and can hold any shape you make it into ( I have a pony in my guitar! ... well ... okay, no, not really ... ). The downside is that it is not shielded wire. That didn't matter in my shielded guitar, but may be a dealbreaker for you. Or it might work. Good luck!
|
|
lpdeluxe
Meter Reader 1st Class
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
|
Post by lpdeluxe on Jun 25, 2008 10:28:08 GMT -5
Thank you. At the moment I'm pondering a Mojo assembly for the 335. www.mojomusicalsupply.com/item.asp?pid=577858&pg=92721&id=2115110I emailed their customer service, and the reply was that "The pots are full size approx 15/16'' diameter. Lots of people have bought this assembly for Epiphone Sheratons and haven't reported any problems installing it. I hope this helps." I'll measure the f-hole again (I didn't care about being too accurate the first time, since I had the dimension of the minis) and see how that will work. Otherwise I'll likely go with your idea. The original Epi wiring was dressed nicely inside yellow fiberglass tubes (or some similar woven material) and I may incorporate them if I don't go with Mojo. Thanks again for the prompt reply.
|
|
|
Post by D2o on Jun 25, 2008 10:48:04 GMT -5
Thank you. At the moment I'm pondering a Mojo assembly for the 335. www.mojomusicalsupply.com/item.asp?pid=577858&pg=92721&id=2115110I emailed their customer service, and the reply was that "The pots are full size approx 15/16'' diameter. Lots of people have bought this assembly for Epiphone Sheratons and haven't reported any problems installing it. I hope this helps." I'll measure the f-hole again (I didn't care about being too accurate the first time, since I had the dimension of the minis) and see how that will work. Otherwise I'll likely go with your idea. The original Epi wiring was dressed nicely inside yellow fiberglass tubes (or some similar woven material) and I may incorporate them if I don't go with Mojo. Thanks again for the prompt reply. You're welcome. Am I reading correctly that the assembly is $90? That seems reasonable enough, and their customer service seems to be responsive. Both good signs ... but still ... If it were me and I'd bought and paid for all the parts and got myself all good and energized from saying "f-hole" a couple times (WOW! that really is invigorating!), I think I'd take a good GN2 style whack at it with the telephone wire first. Call us and let us know how it turns out.
|
|
lpdeluxe
Meter Reader 1st Class
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
|
Post by lpdeluxe on Jun 25, 2008 12:46:08 GMT -5
Yeah, I measured the f-hole a little more carefully and 3/4" is generous. So it'll be redone using phone wire. I have a roll of it somewhere around here....
As to the $90, at some points in the process I would gladly have paid $100 to avoid doing it! I didn't mention, that I took it by the local music store when I got the pickups to get an estimate on installing them. As it happened the tech and the owner had just spent three of four days rewiring a '68 Gibson ES-345 in the shop and they ran for the hills when they saw what I wanted. Having done some rewiring on my '63 Gretsch Chet Atkins Country Gent (NO f-holes, just a small oval plate in the middle of the back) I thought I could tackle this one.
Of course, small details like the SD leads for the neck pickup being about 1" too short to reach the volume pot (which I discovered after wiring it up once and finding a dead pickup -- when I worked the pot into its hole, it stretched the wires out and popped the solder joints) and clumsily breaking the tab off a new pot (never said I did this for a living) made it ever more challenging.
But it sounds great and my new-found skills at teasing little electronic gubbinses in and out of f-holes make me confident that the next time around will be much easier.
|
|
|
Post by D2o on Jun 25, 2008 12:49:54 GMT -5
But it sounds great and my new-found skills at teasing little electronic gubbinses in and out of f-holes make me confident that the next time around will be much easier. That's what I'm talkin' about! You can only learn that the hard way! +1
|
|
lpdeluxe
Meter Reader 1st Class
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
|
Post by lpdeluxe on Jun 30, 2008 16:09:50 GMT -5
I have the new wire (both phone wire and single-conductor shielded cable) and tomorrow I will yet again take out the electronics on the Epi Sheraton II.
Here's a heads-up: I ordered Stewart-McDonald's "How to Wire a Gibson" DVD and there ain't much there. While there are some useful tips about tools and so on, the thinbody f-hole Dan Erlewine works on in the video is a Gibson ES-330, which has no center block.
As a result, Mr Erlewine offers no advice on the essential problem of the SII, which is the challenge of getting everything in and out through the f-holes.
For what it's worth, it appears that only the Sheraton II requires the use of minipots: the Dot and Casino models, which lack the f-hole binding, have openings large enough for full-size pots.
The SD pickups sound terrific, on a par with a friend's ES-340 (similar to a 335, but with a peculiar 3-pot wiring system). I hope to improve the tone further by wiring in an .050 cap (closest I found to Gibson's .047) on the neck tone pot.
|
|
lpdeluxe
Meter Reader 1st Class
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
|
Post by lpdeluxe on Jul 2, 2008 14:01:49 GMT -5
Hmmmm....telephone hookup wire is 'way too brittle for wring an archtop. The solder joints did not survive the flexing necessary to get all the pots in their places. Back to the drawing board.
Also the shielded wire I used this time is rather stiff and made assembly difficult. I'll look for more flexible hookup and shielded cable.
|
|
|
Post by D2o on Jul 2, 2008 14:25:59 GMT -5
Hmmmm....telephone hookup wire is 'way too brittle for wring an archtop. ..... whaa-aaa? ...Wasn't flexibility sorta the issue in the first place? Sorry for your trouble, LP. I have not had to work in such confines before. Still, as you can see from my Jon Stewartesque inquiry above, I'm a little confused: is the wire too brittle, or is the solder joint the problem? I don't expect you're gonna want to try this again with telephone wire ... but, if it is the solder joint and not the wire itself, I wouldn't see any harm in trying again and fortifying the solder joint. You could put the wire through the required hole and bend it around the terminal and crimp it before soldering it. The downside is it will be so well put on that it will be a pain in the A$$ to get off again, but the upside is it will be so well put on that it will be a pain in the A$$ to get off again. But it's your time at stake here, so I understand if you don't want to try that. What do you think? Edit: one more thing: if you decide to try it again, and it holds up well but you have to twist the whole assembly in any given direction to get it to fit, I would be tempted to twist it a bit more - maybe a quarter turn beyond what is actually required to get it to fit. Don't take the quarter turn literally, just twist it a bit more so that you can feel it kind of "relaxing" a bit when you let off the bit of extra twist. That way, once you have it installed, it is not in a state of constant stress. I have no idea if my written description makes sense, so here is a picture.
|
|
lpdeluxe
Meter Reader 1st Class
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
|
Post by lpdeluxe on Jul 2, 2008 17:20:51 GMT -5
Thank you for your ideas, DE842 ver 2.0. The essential difficulty is working in the very tight quarters of the minipots. I am slowly getting used to not having room to swing a soldering iron, so to speak, and hope not to go blind before I finish. I am perfectly willing to believe that my soldering is faulty...but the first time through, using larger gauge hookup wire, I had no problems. Whatever my problem is, the smaller wires seem to be part of it. I just finished cleaning all the solder off the pots to have another go, but I'll have to look around to see if I have more promising materials. Hi ho, hi ho, to Radio Shack I go. Actually, if I hadn't decided to go with a .050 cap for the neck pickup, I would have been done long ago. Luckily I have endless time, and more patience than I thought I would be able to muster. And, on the positive side, I'm getting **REALLY GOOD** at putting everything together and taking it apart again. For what it's worth, Dan Erlewine asserts in the "Wiring a Gibson" DVD that Gibson wired up the early 335s into the top before assembly onto the body. Check out the video in the link (be patient: it's timewasting until about 7:30 into it, when they begin taking apart EC's 335): video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4764707652331081865It's obvious that Gibson has the specialized tools to put them together any which way (check out the forceps used to put the pot in place through the f-hole at about 50:10) so I'm not inclined to credit Erlewine. My own experience shows that it can easily be done, even without specialized tools -- I use a bent paper clip and a ball of string! More later as events develop.
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Jul 2, 2008 21:35:07 GMT -5
in re: Pulling pots through holes on a hollow-bodied guitar: Used to be that I'd run out to the carport, lift the hood, and steal a piece or two of vacuum line off the engine. The bigger stuff fit tightly over the shaft of most pots. Nowadays, they don't make engines that can be raided for parts like this. Hell, for some cars, you have to drop a dime just to learn how to open the hood. So instead, I use a length of heat-shrink tubing over the shaft - problem solved! ;D HTH sumgai
|
|
lpdeluxe
Meter Reader 1st Class
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
|
Post by lpdeluxe on Jul 2, 2008 23:34:51 GMT -5
Many thanks, sumgai, I probably have heat-shrink that would fit...I don't know that my Matrix would yield the proper size tubing without a fight, and in the event, it would **NOT** be like pulling the vacuum off a Stromberg 97 and having a gol
As I said, I'm getting maybe a little vain about my ability to fish the pieces in and out....
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Jul 4, 2008 17:06:36 GMT -5
lpd, You know what they say: A good skill is just like a............. say, has anyone seen my buggy whip? ;D sumgai
|
|
lpdeluxe
Meter Reader 1st Class
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
|
Post by lpdeluxe on Jul 9, 2008 12:27:05 GMT -5
Updates, revelations, and good news.
The Epi is now wired up with an .020 cap in the bridge tone path and an .050 for the neck.
After frustration trying to use phone wire, I concluded that, while it may work fine for wiring guitars that can be soldered up in situ or that have access such that no twisting of the components need be done, I can't work them little gubbinses through the f-hole without breaking at least one solder joint.
I finally ordered Stewart-McDonald's wiring kit -- not the one with the pots, because it comes with conventional pots, too big to go through the f-hole -- and it was exactly what I needed. Stranded hookup wire in black and white and a length of small gauge shielded.
By now I had made a new and improved cardboard template, with the correct size holes punched with a set of leather punches I had laying around, and I dressed much of the wiring through the sleeves from the original harness. Harking back to my first post, I allowed a bit of slack in each connection.
The Seymour Duncan pickups had no length to spare, so I extended them as follows: the red and white wires were soldered together (no extra switches on my baby!) and the ends insulated with shrink wrap. The green and bare (ground) were spliced together and then spliced into a length of white hookup wire. I spliced some more onto the black (hot) lead, and was careful to layer heat shrink tubing so there was a final pair of wires coming out of the jacket, white and black.
I removed the harness from the template and set it on the guitar with the template in between to act as a damage control component.
Then it was solder, solder, solder until the whole catastrophe was connected...I didn't forget to check with the multimeter!
Now the only thing left to do is to loosen the strings, pull off the tailpiece so I can get to the pickups, take out them little bitty screws, and pull the excess wiring back into the pickup cavities.
Thanks to everyone for the encouragement. I've now got a killer guitar with very invested except for several kajillion hours of my life....
|
|
lpdeluxe
Meter Reader 1st Class
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
|
Post by lpdeluxe on Jul 9, 2008 12:30:52 GMT -5
(koff-koff) I meant, very **little** invested....
Further dispassionate research reveals that the git is a '95 rather than a '98, by the way.
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Jul 9, 2008 13:31:05 GMT -5
lpd,
Pictures will get you an Exalt! ;D
sumgai
|
|
lpdeluxe
Meter Reader 1st Class
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
|
Post by lpdeluxe on Jul 10, 2008 7:55:21 GMT -5
The best I can do at this point is take some pics "this is the table I put the Epiphone on" etc. ;D I didn't set up the camera because I wasn't sure I wouldn't have it all apart again to fix something I missed.
And I'm sure as hell not going to take it all apart again for a photo op!
|
|
lpdeluxe
Meter Reader 1st Class
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
|
Post by lpdeluxe on Jul 13, 2008 8:37:25 GMT -5
Here is a blow-by-blow on rewiring my Epiphone Sheraton II with new pots, switch, jack and pickups. All errors and omissions are my own damn fault etc.
Full-size pots are too big to fit through the opening of the f-hole, which on mine is 1" x .75" at its largest (apparently the size varies, as the Sheraton is made in several factories under different ownership). That part of the f-hole is anywhere from 2" to 8" away from the various components, so that has to be kept in mind when cutting the wiring to length.
I stole the idea from Mojo Assemblies of using a template, which I made from a piece of cardboard and a set of leather punches. I measured the distances to all the controls, and punched holes for them in the same relative position on the cardboard as on the guitar top.
My Epi had one noisy pot and a noisy switch, so I ordered new "mini" pots from Stewart-McDonald (part # 3477) along with a three-way switch (#1217), an output jack (#4652) and two of their basic wiring packages (#4575), which include .020 and .050 caps for the tone controls. It took most of both wiring kits for the Epiphone, so don't scrimp.
The Seymour Duncans came with a wiring diagram, as did the three-way switch, and both offer different options. I chose to wire them up as conventional humbuckers and to wire the switch to allow using the volume controls to blend the pickups when using both -- don't worry, it's all in the diagrams.
I put the new pots, switch and jack in the template from the bottom so they'd lay out like the real ones from the top, and then wired them from the bottom side. I used a Sharpie to label the holes on the underside. Very easy to keep track of that way.
I originally wanted to arrange the pots so that the one right below the pickup switch was the neck volume, and the one opposite the switch across the f-hole was the bridge volume, with the other two acting as tones for each pickup. What I found, however, was this entails some awkward routing in order to avoid "worms" visible in the f-hole so I reverted to the normal wiring.
You'll probably need to roughen the surface of the pot body where you solder the grounds in order for the solder to stick. Another tip: turn the shafts on the pots fully counterclockwise (off) to avoid damaging them from heat.
The .020 cap goes on the bridge tone control and the .050 on the neck pot. This emulates Gibson wiring, which uses .022 and .047 values, respectively. Before you solder the cap leg to the pot body, put an alligator clip on to act as a heat sink so you don't fry it with the soldering iron.
Solder up everything but the wires from the pickups, and make sure all the parts share a ground by checking with a multimeter. Otherwise you'll put it together and get a nice hum and have to take it all apart again. Trust me -- I know.
Use the shielded wire between the switch and the output jack, and between the volume and tone pots. Since I had disemboweled my Epi before I got this far, I used the sleeves provided in the original harness to dress all the wires before soldering. Always allow a bit of slack for the shield wire to reach to the back of the pot, where you'll be soldering it to ground.
The SD pickups have 5 wires coming out of them: red, white, green, black and silver (bare). Strip the ends of the red and white wires, twist them together and secure the join with solder, then put heat shrink tubing over the bare part to insulate them. The leads were a little too short for comfort, so I soldered the green and bare wires together (they both go to ground, you're not shorting out anything) and spliced in a 5" length of the white wire to them, covering all the joints with heat shrink. Then I spliced another 5" to the black wire and covered the joint with heat shrink; I repeated this operation for the second pickup.
Note that other brands have different color coding, but the principal doesn't change. In my experience, all pickup makers provide full wiring diagrams, and Stewart-McDonald has others at their website.
When I was done I had two leads from each pickup, a white to connect to ground and a black to connect to hot.
Time to work on the Sheraton: set her on a towel on your workbench with the peghead to your right (reverse if you're working on a lefty), loosen the strings enough to work the stop tailpiece off its studs, and lay it down on the other side of the neck from you. If you're going to restring anyway, just go ahead and take the strings off.
Take an ice cube tray (if your refrigerator doesn't have one, dollar stores do) and lay it behind the guitar where you won't be knocking it over. This is where you'll keep the screws and washers and springs and other little gubbinses organized.
Wrap a cloth under the edge of knob and lift: it will pull right off. Occasionally you'll find one that needs more persuasion, but be wary of using screwdrivers or other tools, because it's really easy for it to slip and mar the top. When possible I put something between the tool and the top to minimize dings.
The switch knob unscrews (you were wondering why it didn't pull right off!). Then undo the nuts on the various controls and push the down through the holes in the guitar top. Take out the screws holding the pickup rings and lift out the pickups from their cavities, clip the leads that go into the guitar interior (I enjoy that part), and disassemble the pickups from their rings, being careful not to lose the springs -- even though the new ones come with springs, it's easier than you might think to watch them arc up into the air and drop behind some unmovable object.
Note: I understand that, on some Sheratons, the pickups are wired onto connectors so you can change pickups without all the folderol described herein, just by soldering the appropriate connectors to the new pickup leads.
Using a thin, bent wire (a large paper clip that's been straightened out except for one loop is perfect) fish the wires inside the body out through the f-hole and pull the controls out. It might be imprudent at this point to start snipping wires, because you want everything to come out with a minimum of fuss.
Identify the wire coming from the tailpiece or bridge: this is the string ground, and you'll be soldering it into the circuit later.
Then attach the pickups to the rings. Note that the thin ring is the neck pickup, and the narrower end is against the fingerboard, and that the pole pieces on the pickups are also next to the neck. The thick ring is for the bridge, and the thicker end -- and the pole pieces -- are toward the bridge. Pickup springs are devils without any horns, let me tell you. What I do is put the pickup in the ring, and run the screw on one side to the flange on the side of the pickup where it screws in. That makes it easier to put the other screw in place, put its spring around it, and compress the whole assembly while screwing that side in. Then you repeat the fun for the other side, and maybe 2-3 hours later, you've got the spring mounted nicely between the rings and the flanges. It's useful to make sure the floor underneath the workbench is clear of obstruction for the many times you'll be on your hands and knees, retrieving the springs. If somebody knows an easier way, feel free to chime in!
Finally, solder the pickup leads to the harness. You may have to remove the harness from the template for this step. If so, be sure to have a protective cover over the guitar top to avoid boogers in your finish. Don't forget to solder the tailpiece wire to ground.
Now we're at the fun and games stage of the whole catastrophe. Take a length of string long enough to reach from the wide part of the f-hole to the output jack, allow a few more inches, and tie one end so that you can pull it up into the hole. Using the bent paper clip, fish the string from inside the guitar up through the jack hole in the guitar body (mine required two steps: fishing to the neck tone hole, then from there to the output hole, because my paper clip wasn't long enough. That's the only time I had to do that). Pull the jack up into the hole (a thin jeweler's screwdriver is useful in persuading to come up straight); grip the end of the jack securely with your fingers or needlenose pliers while you cut the string as far inside the jack as you can, then install the flat washer and nut. Damn, that sounds easy...but if it doesn't work right away, try, try again. Pretty soon -- after a day or so -- you'll get good at it!
Then do each pot in turn (I started with the one closest to the jack, and worked my way up), remembering to put a star washer on the shaft of the pot before you tie the string on. Patience, patience, patience. As soon as each little pot is sticking its lovely shaft straight up in its hole, untie the string and pull it out, never letting go of the pot. You will likely have to drop the pot down a fraction of an inch in order to pull out the end of the string, but maybe you'll get lucky, or have better knot-tying skills than I do: I always seem to end up with a bit of a tail past the knot.
The switch is the last to go in. I oriented the switch on mine so that "up" is the neck pickup and "down" is the bridge.
Take up the slack in the leads coming from the pickups and fold them into the pickup cavity. This is a chance to make it look perhaps a little more professional. Attach the pickups and string it up (or, replace the tailpiece and tune it up). Leave the knobs off until you've had a chance to test your work. I plug into a tuner and make sure the tuner recognizes the notes from each switch position...then I plug into an amp for the final test before I put the knobs back on.
Have fun and good luck...and avoid telephone hookup wire: it's solid core and the solder joints break easily while you're working everything into place. Guess how I know that?
Feel free to correct my procedures or to offer alternatives: this is the one and only thin archtop guitar I have rewired, and I'm sure there are shortcuts. If you think I'm a moron (a guy on another forum actually called me that because of my delusion -- in his interpretation -- that full size pots won't go through an opening that's smaller than it is) keep it to yourself.
|
|
|
Post by D2o on Jul 13, 2008 11:38:55 GMT -5
LP - this is terrific! DD
|
|
lpdeluxe
Meter Reader 1st Class
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
|
Post by lpdeluxe on Jul 13, 2008 13:21:47 GMT -5
Thank you. If I have saved just one household from blue air, I am at peace.
|
|
|
Post by newey on Jul 13, 2008 14:18:04 GMT -5
Yes, nice job lpd! I'd be pretty intimidated myself to try all that fishing around in that hollowbody.
Workshops were invented to keep the blue air away from the household. ;D
|
|
lpdeluxe
Meter Reader 1st Class
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
|
Post by lpdeluxe on Jul 13, 2008 15:26:57 GMT -5
Workshops were invented to keep the blue air away from the household. ;D I was telling my ex about rewiring the Epi. She said, "how bad were the scorches on the binding?" I guess she knows me pretty well. When we were married I used to schedule project like installing a CD player in my car for times when she would be out of town....
|
|