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Post by giantslayer20 on Jul 18, 2008 1:03:32 GMT -5
So here's my situation. A couple years ago, I took my Squier Strat and completely gutted it, shielded it, and put in all new electronics. I shielded it using aluminum foil and following the guitarnuts instructions. It didn't quiet down very much. Whatever difference I heard could have been attributed to the new pickups (American Series Strat pickups).
So, here I am, two years later, and I've come to a realization that the noise really screws up my tone and I want to get rid of it. On two separate occasions, I've pulled the guitar apart, poured over the guitarnuts instructions, and checked to see if I did anything incorrectly. I haven't been able to find anything. The 2 and 4 positions on my strat are as close to silent as anyone could hope for (which probably rules out certain types of wiring errors). Honestly, if I could get the regular pickup positions to be almost as quiet as 2 and 4 are now, I'd be a very happy camper, but I don't know if that's reasonably possible.
I've decided to try shielding the pickups themselves. Yet, I still have this nagging thought that, according to all I've read, this shielding stuff seems like it should work better than it is in my guitar.
At this point, I'm wondering if it's just the materials I shielded it with. Here's what makes me wonder: Yesterday, I took the pickguard off and was messing with things. I tried putting the pickguard on and off and noticed no change in noise levels whatsoever. I am assuming that, if my shielding is working, then when the pickguard shielding is disconnected from the body shielding, the hum would increase, right?
I also have one more question: I read a post on here by someone who wrapped the shielding material around his pickups only 95% instead of all the way. Is that a good way to go? Has anybody tried both ways?
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Post by newey on Jul 18, 2008 5:44:53 GMT -5
Giantslayer-
Hello and welcome!
Or not. The point is, having changed all the electronics at the same time as the shielding job, no true A/B comparison is possible. We'll never know how your stock Squier would have sounded with just the shielding job.
Shielding the pups themselves, as I'm sure you've read in the posts, can alter the tone of the pickups. That was the reason for the "95% solution"- to try to get the shielding effect while still preserving the tone.
I wouldn't go there just yet. Some troubleshooting is the first order of the day. First, if you haven't already done so, let's isolate the guitar as the source of the problem. Borrow a known quiet guitar, one with HBs perhaps, and play it using your usual set-up, same amp, cord, etc. If the noise level is roughly the same, your guitar may not be the issue.
Next, you can check the continuity of your shielding job with a multimeter. Check it across each individual piece of the shielding material. Then check to see that it is grounded, by checking it to the grounded lug of your output jack.
And report back your results.
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Post by D2o on Jul 18, 2008 8:29:44 GMT -5
Hi Newey, Good advice. I've been fortunate enough that I have not had issues like this come up yet, and so you've brought up a valuable tip that I am not sure I am getting ... it's likely just too simple for my vastly superior intellect ... yeah, that's it.  If I what reading am I likely to get (or should I get)? And What does that mean, exactly? Sorry for a potentially lamo question ... but at least now I'll know.  Thanks. DD |
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Post by pete12345 on Jul 18, 2008 9:20:35 GMT -5
you are doing a conductivity test, so ideally you should get a very low (theoretically 0) resistance reading around all parts of the shielding. You should check it is grounded by taking a resistance reading between the shielding and the outer shell of the output jack.
Pete
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Post by D2o on Jul 18, 2008 16:37:06 GMT -5
Got it - thank, Pete! DD |
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Post by giantslayer20 on Jul 19, 2008 15:30:56 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply. I've already isolated it to the guitar. I have a humbucker guitar that is reasonably quiet through the same rig, same settings, etc. The 2 and 4 positions on my strat are about as quiet as the humbucker guitar, so that leads me to conclude that the problem must lie with the shielding. I used a meter to check for conductivity. Looks pretty good there.
I ordered some copper shielding tape a few days ago and it came today. I tried taking some, holding it behind the pickup, and touching it to the foil shielding on the guard. There was a noticable reduction in hum higher frequency hum. Not nearly as good as switching to the middle position, but more in line with my expectations for a shielding job. At this point, I'm thinking I should just re-shield it with the copper. I took a reading of the volume level of the hum with a dB meter and can easily get an objective frame of reference for any reduction.
I think it may be difficult to remove the aluminum. I'm thinking it probably couldn't hurt to keep it there and just put the copper over it. Maybe I could use some wires or whatnot to connect the two shields, so it would be kindof like a double shield (except 1 layer is fairly ineffective).
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Post by D2o on Jul 19, 2008 17:24:10 GMT -5
The only thing that comes to mind is that I believe aluminum and copper have different electrical potential. You can probably get away with it, though - just make sure the two types of metal have no contact with each other. Otherwise, I think the difference in electrical potential between the two may play havoc with the shielding (once again).  If I were you, I'd wait for further comment on this one. DD |
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Post by giantslayer20 on Jul 20, 2008 1:40:12 GMT -5
Well that was a waste of 4 hours. (I also had to rewire the input jack, which was a huge PITA). According to my dB meter, I got about 2 dBs off (from 75 to 73 with the exact same settings and guitar pointed the same way on a table). So much for that. The only thing I got to show for my troubles is that my pickguard doesn't quite fit on now and has a little bulge in it. (probably 'cause I ran a new wire for the output).
I guess I'll probably be looking at shielding the coils themselves, sometime after I get sleep and am no longer frustrated.
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Post by D2o on Jul 20, 2008 8:52:15 GMT -5
Whoa! horsie - slow down there pahdner!  Why did you have to rewire the output jack? And where did you run this wire that it's causing a bulge - you remember that there is a little tunnel from the control cavity to the output jack cavity, right? If the bulge is from foil somewhere else then you could identify the cause of the bulge and (after removing the pick guard) gently tamp it down with either a rubber mallet or (very gently) with a hammer - it won't take much force at all. Before you go shielding your newly acquired American Series pups, a couple of things: 1) the "95% solution" uses tightly woven copper fabric, not copper foil - I have used foil in the past (on a squier, as a point of fact) and found that the reduction in hum was worth the tradeoff, which is a bit of tone loss. But that was with stock squier pups ... you've just come into po$$e$$ion of more expen$ive pups. 2) I pooched a pup in the process 3) so before you acquire that very expensive woven material with which you may pooch your own pup, why don't you re-wire your newly shielded squier so that it is the stock wiring - just like the day it was bought new, complete with ground loops (wires connecting the backs of the pots) and see what happens? I hope you will be pleasantly surprised.  Good luck, and let us know what happens. DD |
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Post by warmstrat on Jul 20, 2008 13:01:35 GMT -5
Are you suggesting the stock wiring, ground loops and all, is quieter than his new wiring? I don't believe it. Qualify this statement? |
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Post by D2o on Jul 20, 2008 13:19:01 GMT -5
Are you suggesting the stock wiring, ground loops and all, is quieter than his new wiring? I don't believe it. Qualify this statement? Certainly, I'll qualify it.  By the way, I am not the least bit surprised that you don’t believe it. I wouldn’t necessarily have believed it myself if I hadn’t done it a couple of times. References: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=wiring&thread=1611&page=1See your post (reply #8) and my response (reply #9). Basically, the gist of my post is I shielded a bone stock squire and achieved significant hum reduction, despite a redundant ground (loop). And here: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=reference&action=display&thread=3375&page=1In a more controlled experiment, which also included stock wiring, I also achieved significant hum reduction. Since his guitar isn't quite working out for him, I suggested that he try wiring it back to stock to see what happens. I don't know what will happen, but ... I have found that shielding a bone stock strat reduces hum, and I have not found the ground loops to be the source of any noticeable hum. Maybe he will too. DD |
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Post by giantslayer20 on Jul 20, 2008 23:31:02 GMT -5
I had to rewire the output jack because I did it poorly last time and the wire I used wasn't long enough to remove the guard and set it down anywhere. The signal wire, due to stress or the insulation being not properly stripped, had lost around 50-60% of its strands (and it's a really skinny wire to start with).
The little bulge is in the area of the volume pot (I don't have it in front of me right now). I can tighten all the screws in the pickguard down. I tried looking at it to figure out what's causing it. The only options I can come up with are that the shielding somehow took up too much space, I repositioned the the string ground wire wrong, or having a longer output wire in the cavity is messing it up (the wire is really rigid, much more so than the stock one).
As far as messing with the pickups goes, I've had 'em for about 2 years and I got 'em for about $60, so I don't really care about them THAT much. I'm not 100% happy with their tone anyways. It's miles ahead of the stock pups, but still brighter than I like (I always have the tone rolled down to 7 or 8) and there's more noise than I want. So, on paper, at least, a reduction in treble and noise seems like a good deal.
I was planning on using copper tape to shield them, following the StewMac instructions. The whole copper mesh thing from that other thread sounds like it must be the holy grail of shielding solutions, but I have no idea where to get several of the things he used (or what they are for that matter). I guess I don't know if it's worth the effort and $$$ to do that over using copper tape. What do you think?
Another question: the 95% thing is for that copper mesh stuff as a dummy coil, not for copper tape shielding, right?
As far as the rewiring back to stock thing goes, it seems like too much work for a very uncertain payout. Besides that, I've customized my wiring and like the changes I made (master volume, master tone, 50's mod, blend pot for neck pickup in positions 1 and 2).
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Post by D2o on Jul 21, 2008 9:06:44 GMT -5
I see - then it's good that you changed it.
If it's just shielding in the way, that's easy enough to tamp down - it won't eliminate the bulge, but should at least alleviate it to some degree. If it's the wire, and the wire is rigid, you should be able to work it into a shape that sits in the cavity, rather than between the body and the pickguard.
Yep, on paper it certainly sounds like the ideal candidate.
Yes, the problem with copper mesh is not so much the cost for the amount that you need, it's that you can't find the stuff and, when you do, you have to buy a $30 order (which is fine if you plan in shielding A LOT of pups). There were two keys to the mesh: 1) partially wrapping the pickup with ... 2) "the mesh", which does not allow the formation of tone sucking eddy currents.
Given that you actually desire a bit of tone loss, copper tape should be fine, and going around 100% of the coil probably is too.
Right - you use solid material for the cavity and pick guard shielding.
Ahhh. We may slowly be discovering that there could really be one of many variables that is causing your shielding results to be less effective than you had hoped they would be. I think I understand why you don't want to wire it stock, but keep in mind that it could be that the setup you are using causes "x" amount of hum, and that's that - who knows?
Good luck with the pup shielding - be cautious.
DD
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Post by sumgai on Jul 21, 2008 12:29:52 GMT -5
DD, Errr, not quite. If shielding is effective, it won't matter "what's under the hood". You could have a simple pickup -> wire -> jack arrangement, or you could have 31 modules of active electronics, it simply won't matter - if the shielding job was a good one, 99.99% of all the buzzing/humming from the outside simply won't get through to the inside. Now it's entirely possible that something has been accidentally configured into imitating a dedicated receiver of such hum/buzz, meaning that it's particularly sensitive, and might be able to pickup, discern, and effectively amplify that 0.01% of hum that did get through, but what are the chances of that, eh? Jimmy the Greek would be happy to make book with you on that one. And giantslayer, a belated Welcome to the NutzHouse to you! ;D As usual, troubleshooting via the innerwebs is difficult at best. A picture or two would be helpful. (Hint, hint) HTH sumgai |
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Post by D2o on Jul 21, 2008 12:47:16 GMT -5
Errr, not quite. If shielding is effective, it won't matter "what's under the hood". You could have a simple pickup -> wire -> jack arrangement, or you could have 31 modules of active electronics, it simply won't matter - if the shielding job was a good one, 99.99% of all the buzzing/humming from the outside simply won't get through to the inside. Thanks, sumgai My poor choice in including the word "effective". When I read it - knowing that I meant his results are "less" than he'd hoped they would be - it makes sense. The problem is, when anyone else reads it, it suggests something else. Nevertheless, something isn't working for him ... That's EXACTLY what I was thinking. ;D Okay, not really ... I don't know why it's not working out for him, but he's changed SO many things that, as newey pointed out at the onset, a true A/B comparison is no longer possible. That's more or less what I meant to get at. DD P.S. I hadn't calculated the shielding effectiveness with anywhere near the accuracy you have ... 99.99% eh?  |
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Post by sumgai on Jul 21, 2008 16:34:00 GMT -5
DD, Laudable, and correct. After all, I myself have espoused that very proposal here many times. But there are times when that's both valid and helpful, and other times when no matter how valid, it'd still be a waste. This particular instance falls under the latter category. Looking at the subsystems of a guitar, we can make a block chart out of the whole affair. In brief, we'd have the pickups, controls and switches in one block, and the shielding in another block. The only place they'd interact is at the ground lug of the output jack (electrically speaking, that is). Hence, even if one has messed up the job of Block B, anything happening in Block A should still function as before, do you see? And the converse is true - if Block A is modified, either more or less complicated than it's original status, that still has no effect on Block B. That's not to say that some interaction can't happen, I'm only pointing out the normal expectations, which are realized in the vast majority of shielding installations. Again, normal as in what we'd expect, electrically speaking. Of course, it goes without saying that Mr. Murphy has the final say in the matter.   Well, plus or minus an order of magnitude, but yeah, that's about right. ;D HTH sumgai |
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Post by giantslayer20 on Jul 23, 2008 12:12:00 GMT -5
I know it's not the mods I've done to the wiring. Originally, I wired it close to stock, with the exceptions of implementing star grounding and having the middle pickup tone control affect the bridge as well. It was just as noisy then.
I'm pretty sure the noise has to be coming from the pickups, and not from the controls because the 2 and 4 positions are dead silent. If the noise was introduced in the wiring or controls somewhere, it would still be there in the 2 and 4 positions.
I wonder if you can get copper mesh at a craft store like Hobby Lobby or Michael's. I'm' going to try out the copper tape for reasons already discussed. Just wondering out loud there.
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Post by D2o on Jul 23, 2008 17:21:07 GMT -5
Okay - I am actually not terribly surprised by that, as you may have guessed by now. Assuming that you are talking about a shielded guitar with both wiring situations, that does seem to confirm what I was suggesting; that it's primarily the actual shielding that reduces hum from interference - not the wiring. Stock wiring, ground loops, star grounding and what have you seems to have little impact. That's why I had suggested that you could go back to stock and maybe even be pleasantly surprised. Now, if you say there was no difference either way, there is also no point in changing back if it was just as noisy ... it would be neither beneficial nor detrimental. So it sounds like it's not the wiring mods, so I agree - don't do it. EDIT: My statements above are not intended to suggest that there is no SAFETY benefit to the QTB wiring. Again, it sounds reasonable that the noise is coming from the pickups; but keep in mind that positions 2 and 4 are, effectively, two single coils conspiring to act as a humbucker (i.e. inherently quiet), so that isn't necessarily telling you very much other than single coil pickups tend to be susceptible to 60 Hz hum. It's no wonder you are zeroing in the idea of directly shielding the pickups. When I tried to find some, I found that the stuff I could find (on the internet, at least - I never did find a physical example) had less than the required thread count of 70 per inch (per woody's specifications) ... I don't know if the lower thread count would have worked or not. I had to go to specialty places to get the 70 thread count stuff, and they wanted me to buy at least 10 ft. of it. Let us know how you make out with the shielding. If you can, take a recording of the hum before and after the shielding (with all other variables constant - guitar volume and tone at 10, amp volume at "x" each time, same cord, same angle, etc. etc.) so we can hear the difference as a result of shielding the pickups directly. Good luck. DD |
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Post by giantslayer20 on Jul 23, 2008 23:00:05 GMT -5
I tried shielding the middle pickup as a pilot of sorts. I didn't do it exactly the way StewMac said because the idea of desoldering the pickup leads looked intimidating and I didn't want to mess with it. So I wrapped the copper around and soldered a wire to the copper that I soldered to the pickguard.
The shielding on that pickup made no discernable difference. The noise is the same as it was before and not any quieter than the other pickups.
I do have some good news, however. I finally strung up the guitar and played it (I've been sitting it on a bench and listening to hum and measuring it with a dB meter). It is a little quieter than it used to be, and the frequencies that were cut out were more of the higher, more annoying frequencies. The lower stuff is mostly untouched. I also noticed that the hum doesn't increase when I don't have my hand on the strings.
The noise level isn't really that bad, at least not anymore. Maybe if I went to a noisier venue than my apartment I'd wish I had a quieter guitar, but I'm doing ok for now. My "waste of 4 hours" post was mostly frustration, it being 1am, and listening to my amp off-axis where I only heard the lower frequency hum that wasn't really reduced.
Thanks for all the help.
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Post by giantslayer20 on Jul 23, 2008 23:35:11 GMT -5
Nevermind. I take back some of the good things I said. I played some more and realized that I was standing in that magical position where all the hum disappears. That's why it sounded so good. I move position and it's basically as bad as I remember. Even when I'm playing, it sounds so much better when I'm in the quiet spot. Much cleaner. I've come to realize that's what I like about humbuckers: they don't have all that noise in the signal, so you get a strong, clean signal, even distorted.
The noise that disappears when I touch the strings is still gone, though, which is a plus.
I guess I've taken shielding about as far as it can take me. What I need is some sort of dummy coil action. Positions 2 and 4 are virtually silent. I don't know if I want to monkey with the copper mesh thing. Is it really all that it's cracked up to be? 'Cause shielding was supposed to be magical and great, as was shielding the pickups, and they've been okay but not the end all be all.
At this point, I'm leaning towards the idea of saving up and getting noiseless pickups. I'm thinking some Bill Lawrence 280s would probably be good.
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Post by D2o on Jul 24, 2008 8:46:04 GMT -5
Nevermind. I take back some of the good things I said. I played some more and realized that I was standing in that magical position where all the hum disappears. hmmm ..... could it be your apartment is a noisy venue? This brings back memories of my failed attempts at something that urthman claims to work for him urthman.jsent.biz/music/silence.html. For both of you. ;D I can't help wondering if there is something else afoot here though; either with the pickups or possibly even the expectations of the pickups, or with the wiring in your apartment (e.g., do you have light dimmers, fluorescent lights, CRT monitors, particle accelerators, nuclear fission reactors, etc. ... okay, well mostly the wiring is what I'm getting at). Before you buy those lovely new Bill Lawrence pickups, have you taken your gear elsewhere (a friends house, for example) and repeated the same tests there? I just can't help thinking something is amiss.  However, as you say, nothing a humbucker couldn't probably fix. DD |
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macphyst
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Post by macphyst on Jul 24, 2008 11:21:20 GMT -5
Hello all! I've been checking this site for a while now but finally created an account. Just wanted to add my $.02 here to this topic as I have just completed a shielding and wiring job on my MIJ Strat. I plan to make a topic on it soon just to try and discuss a few of the things I ran across when when doing my mods. But I digress...
One thing I've noticed since the shielding/star grounding of my strat is that I believe my apartment plays a major part in my buzz and hum. I play my guitars in a smaller room with 2 computers and a television (although not always on when playing). I get what I believe to be a considerable amount of noise. However, going over to a friends house or out to our practice space, my guitar is now incredibly quiet compared to what it used to be. With that being said, I may have to agree with the suggestion above that it could be something to do with some sort of interference in your apartment (the apartment wiring maybe?) or that deposit of nuclear waste that's buried under your place that you never knew about. Heh!
Either way, I would certainly suggest going elsewhere and plugging in and see if that clears anything up. Certainly seems to work for me.
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Post by D2o on Jul 24, 2008 11:30:36 GMT -5
Hi macphyst, I saw that you signed up earlier today and (regardless of whether we agree, honest ) I just wanted to wish you a warm WELCOME! to GN2. Thanks for your input! We look forward to hearing more about the complete electrical adventures of macphyst! DD |
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Post by giantslayer20 on Jul 24, 2008 17:51:28 GMT -5
The noise is about the same at my parents' house and at my church. When I turn my guitar to point the right direction, the noise virtually vanishes. If I could get that noise level in any position, I'd be really happy. I guess I won't get that without some form of dummy coil.
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Post by D2o on Jul 24, 2008 18:48:53 GMT -5
The noise is about the same at my parents' house and at my church. When I turn my guitar to point the right direction, the noise virtually vanishes. If I could get that noise level in any position, I'd be really happy. I guess I won't get that without some form of dummy coil. Check out this link on dummy coils: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=1693DD |
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Post by giantslayer20 on Jul 25, 2008 0:56:19 GMT -5
I think I've decided it's probably not worth trying to do a dummy coil. I barely understand it and it looks moderately difficult. Stuff that I think I understand completely and looks easy usually ends up running into unexpected snags and being more trouble and time than I thought. I'm not sure what will happen if it's something I don't think is easy to start with.
I guess the bottom line on that is I don't think it's worth the probably large amount of time and effort it'll take me to do it. I also don't think it'll be worth spending the money on it. I do have the old pickups from my Squier that I could pull apart and use as dummy coils, but if it all works, I'll need to get a new middle pickup that's not reverse polarity.
I think I'll just save up and try some Bill Lawrence pickups. They sound like they'll give me what I really want. I also have been reading up on his Q-Filter. It sounds intriguing. Apparently, it replaces your tone control and can get you an acoustic-like sound. One reviewer said it's more like being able to dial in a hollowbody electric tone.
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Post by D2o on Jul 25, 2008 15:24:51 GMT -5
LOL! Well said ... I guess. I have to respect that you may not want to spend inordinate amounts of time in the guts of your guitar ... still, there's a great deal that can be learned in baptism by fire. The pickups should be quiet. I would like to hear your comments after swapping the pickups, but before putting the Q-Filter in ... you know, a real A/B before and after so you can hear and hopefully appreciate what you've bought. Wouldn't you? Reviews of the Q-Filter seem to be good - but only after much tinkering and dialing in. It's only $20 or so isn't it? If you're in for more pickups, what's another $20? Well, enjoy! And let us kow how it works out! DD |
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