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Post by humanbn on Aug 7, 2008 10:24:53 GMT -5
What's the difference between these and other caps of the same value ratings? Different materials? Produced differently?  |
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 7, 2008 12:35:51 GMT -5
They sound better.  |
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Post by ChrisK on Aug 7, 2008 17:45:14 GMT -5
They taste better too.  If two capacitors have identical specifications (full specifications inclusive of leakage, frequency response, and dielectric material/absorption), they will sound identical, regardless of colo(u)r or "vintage". |
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Post by newey on Aug 7, 2008 19:39:40 GMT -5
Only 2 differences:
1) $$$$$$$$$
2) Amount of Hype
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Post by sumgai on Aug 8, 2008 13:57:58 GMT -5
bean, .........
Only 2 differences:
1) $$$$$$$$$
2) Amount of Hype Been there, said that! ;D As usual, when the hype starts rolling aroond, I always reply politely with a simple "Would you be willing to submit to a double-blind test to prove that?" So far, no one's taken me up on the offer. And you can guess which pocket (still) holds my money, can'cha?  sumgai |
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Post by ChrisK on Aug 8, 2008 22:00:03 GMT -5
When I mentioned two capacitors having identical specifications (full specifications inclusive of leakage, frequency response, and dielectric material/absorption), it was because virtually all capacitors used within this industry are woefully underspecified. If one knows the descriptive type/family (the Orange Drop for instance) one can find fairly meaningful specifications, but these are difficult to compare to all of the others with incomplete specifications. Voltage rating and capacitance alone tell very, very little. I tend to use polypropylene or polycarbonate since these are well specified and quite high in quality of specification. That is unless I want to use vintage types (which were the low-cost leader's of their day) for the tone coloration due to their lower quality.  |
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Post by kuzi16 on Aug 11, 2008 11:12:03 GMT -5
As usual, when the hype starts rolling aroond, I always reply politely with a simple "Would you be willing to submit to a double-blind test to prove that?" So far, no one's taken me up on the offer. Lets just say some sales-person DID take you up on that offer. how would you go about setting that up? |
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Post by D2o on Aug 11, 2008 12:29:49 GMT -5
As usual, when the hype starts rolling aroond, I always reply politely with a simple "Would you be willing to submit to a double-blind test to prove that?" So far, no one's taken me up on the offer. Lets just say some sales-person DID take you up on that offer. how would you go about setting that up? The big guy also stated that here: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=3383A double-blind test is a control group test where neither the evaluator nor the subject knows which items are controls. The purpose of the double-blind testing is to reduce error, self-deception and bias. The thing is ... those who already know already know there will be no difference. Those who don't know quickly put two and two together ... rather than risk looking like a shmuck when they have to publicly admit that there is no difference, they break like the wind. Now that you know that, offer away, but plant your feet firmly so that you don't get sucked away in the vacuum of their vapour trails. There are a few ways you could actually do the test, but there is also a practical problem of money and time.  You can't afford two or more identical guitars in which you would install various capacitors, nor can you sit around waiting for one guitar to have the various capacitors soldered in. This is where McGyver would really be handy. I bet McGyver would do something on the guitar like have two 12" pieces of wire (wire ... another subject of over-selling one type versus another) protruding from the guitar, one end of each of the wires soldered to one of the spots you would solder one of the legs of a capacitor (i.e. when you attach the capacitor to the protruding ends, you would end up with the correct attachment of the capacitor, only it would be connected outside of the guitar). You would then have an impartial third party attach the various capacitors, one leg to each protruding end of each piece of wire. The capacitor itself would be hidden (in a box or an envelope or whatever the impartial third party dreams up) so that none of the evaluators / subjects know what's going on. Then you play it or taste it or whatever until all of the testers are satisfied that they are clear in their decision about which, if any, they prefer. Until now, none of the testers have had any knowledge about which cap is which. After the test is complete, the types of capacitors and the results are revealed. It might go something like this: "The first sample is a capacitor from the electronic surplus store. The price was 5 for $2.00." "The next sample is an orange drop capacitor. It costs $5.00 per capacitor." "10 out of 10 noted no difference in tone" or "5 out of ten preferred the Orange Drop, and 5 out of 10 preferred the other." ... ... or some other combination of the above. All of the above is imaginary, as no one has ever actually accepted the offer ... but it's probably something like how it might go. DD |
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Post by kuzi16 on Aug 12, 2008 0:35:05 GMT -5
just playing devils advocate, do you think that any of the people didnt step up to the plate because of the mentioned reasons for not conducting the test? (cost, time, whatnot) If you get a good and honest guy at a GC they should have bothe the time and the guitaras to do it. (i know its a waste of money to them but IN THEORY it could be) ... oh wait, honesty at GC? it may be a problem at my local GC.
this is actually intriging to me. I may have to set up a double blind of my own. maybe int he same guitar. Id have to set the caps up in a varitone style set up. the hard part is getting the two caps of different styles that are actually the same values.
time to break out the multimeter...
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Post by D2o on Aug 12, 2008 8:32:21 GMT -5
just playing devils advocate, do you think that any of the people didnt step up to the plate because of the mentioned reasons for not conducting the test? (cost, time, whatnot) If you get a good and honest guy at a GC they should have bothe the time and the guitaras to do it. (i know its a waste of money to them but IN THEORY it could be) ... oh wait, honesty at GC? it may be a problem at my local GC. this is actually intriging to me. I may have to set up a double blind of my own. maybe int he same guitar. Id have to set the caps up in a varitone style set up. the hard part is getting the two caps of different styles that are actually the same values. time to break out the multimeter... A test would be nice, but it's far more practical to $ell Orange Drops to those who want them and move on from those who don't. Unless you can trick some windbag into doing this, I don't think anyone will be intrigued enough to do it ... they tend to have other things to pur$ue. Actually - even if you set up the varitone or whatever - if you can get someone to agree to a double-blind test, that would be an accomplishment in itself. On that basis, go to it, man! If you are intrigued enough, do your own thing, for your own edification. And try to take some recordings somehow, with variables as controlled as possible, so that you can have an aural and visual comparison of the various caps (I am no expert, but, for what it's worth, you can look at this post for info on how I created an aural and visual comparison guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=reference&action=display&thread=3375 ). I'm not saying you should or shouldn't do this ... but nothing ventured, nothing gained. DD |
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Post by ChrisK on Aug 12, 2008 17:38:03 GMT -5
What do you mean $aying $ell Orange Drop Cap$ to tho$e that want to buy them? They ain't expen$ive if'n ya don't buy them from rapi$t$ and pillager$ Orange Drop CapsThat there 0.047 uF Polypropylene one (hmmm, I wonder who said that before? ) is all of $1.11. They come in different dielectrics. www.mouser.com/catalog/635/820.pdfWhile yer at it, search and look aboot the Mouser site; you just might find lots of stuff most usable in geetar wiring at reasonable prices. DANG! One hears the tales of folk that spend $500 on a new rifle, $500 on a new scope (yep, there's a correlation there), $2,000 on the hunting trip of a lifetime to Northern Canada, and then just buy the cheapest ammo that they can find. If you're wasting your time modd'ing guitars, make it worth the while and use vintage good components where it matters. |
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Post by D2o on Aug 13, 2008 8:54:59 GMT -5
chris, mi frend kyle sez he tinks you is pokin funs at me. I didn't know Orange Drops were only a buck! I can not seem to find them easily here ... here, as in way up North ... and so I figured they were considered exotic (up here, at least ... um, "eh?"). "I'll buy that for a dollar!" (from Robocop) But ... are they actually any better?Stay tuned for the answer to this and other exciting questions in this episode of "kuzi finds out"*. DD * kuzi broadcasting reserves the right to terminate the program without notice. |
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Post by ChrisK on Aug 13, 2008 12:51:47 GMT -5
Than what?
The cheeeeep mylar ones that cost (the guitar parts supplier only $0.05 in volume) $1.00, yes.
The cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep ceramic disk ones that cost (the guitar parts supplier only $0.03 in volume) $0.50, you betcha!
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You can't afford two or more identical guitars in which you would install various capacitors, nor can you sit around waiting for one guitar to have the various capacitors soldered in.