rod79
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Post by rod79 on Aug 23, 2008 8:21:06 GMT -5
Im intersested to know everyones favourite pickup sounds. I should do this as a poll but not sure how to set it up, if anyone else would like to set one up im sure it would be very interesting and fun! any series parallel in phase out of phase, you name it anything goes any thoughts folks?
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Post by pete12345 on Aug 23, 2008 12:02:13 GMT -5
I guess it depends on the pickups you have, but with my squier the best sounding ones are bridge series with middle, bridge series with neck- neck tone turned 2/3 down, and all three in series- neck out of phase with bridge+middle.
Pete
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Post by ChrisK on Aug 23, 2008 14:49:41 GMT -5
That's going to be an interesting poll...... NOT counting phase, these are the possible combinations of 2, 3, and 4 coils. Possible Coil CombinationsAs a combinatorial example, for three coils NOT counting phase, taking 5 combinations at a time out of the 17 possible, there are 6,188 possible combinations. Did I mention that this was NOT counting phase.
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rod79
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Post by rod79 on Aug 23, 2008 15:51:45 GMT -5
how much counting phase? ;D just kidding dont answer that!
i have vision for a top ten sounds where everyone votes, then once the poll is finished ,the top ten sounds are done on a youtube vid or mp3 to let everyone hear them.
if there was say 20 of the most common sounds to choose from ,problem is im not really an expert on sounds and dont know how to set up a poll properly.
i suppose there are the 5 strat sounds, 3 tele sounds, 3 les paul.
theres 9 different sounds for starters (i think)
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Post by JohnH on Aug 23, 2008 18:08:39 GMT -5
Its sad to have to admit it, much as I like wiring puzzles, but for my daily playing and weekly band sessions, I could be fine with just three:
Bridge Hb Neck single coil Parallel combo of above
I get those on my LP, but If its my Strat, its a bridge single coil instead of the Hb. I have never found a use for a neck humbucker. My guitars that have one always get cut to a single coil. After those, I get all my variations to cover the last 50 years of cover-band repertoire by stomping on things.
For example, stomping on the cat gets me a certain early punk vibe from 1977.
John
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Post by 4real on Aug 23, 2008 18:13:49 GMT -5
There is not a lot of sense in this kind of thing really...so much depends on the type of guitar, the type and placement of pickups and the player and what kind of music they play. Honestly... - the bridge pickup alone is the most heard and useful in general, wouldn't want not to have that!
- The neck pickup...a nice smooth tone good for jazzy tones or smooth distortion stuff
- The classic strat "inbetween" positions 2 and 4 sounds (N+M or B+M) parallel for its acoustic like textures
- I have always liked mixed selections...so neck and bridge...I use this a lot (not typically available on a strat...the middle alone seems a little wasted)
- Out of phase combinations can sound really interesting (as on my new tele with OoP neck and bridge HB) and great for funky rhythm stuff...but on other guitars and especially between the coils of a HB very bad (the distance of the coils seems to be important to success)
The inevitable comparisons with strats, teles and LP's are misleading. Personally, I am looking for a guitar to have it's own unique range of useful sounds...there will be comparisons but the point would seem to be to try and step outside the norm. On my HSS strat as standard wired, position 4 was HB and middle which gives a bright "tele-like" sound...but really there is no comparison...it is a bright sound but none of the tele's punch. Similarly...I had my gibson LP wired with two 3 position coil cut switches (one or the other of each pickups coils cut). Sounds nothing like a "strat"...but still useful. A split pickup never sounds like a single coil...some sound better split than others, but never like a strat or tele really. The big difference is in the guitar...the envelope and harmonic content of a Les Paul is a huge part of the sound, regardless of the pickups. I was still surprised that my tremolo equiped tele with HB sounded so much like a tele and nothing like a strat. My strat with HB in the bridge...does not sound like a LP. ... As for YouTube...this seems to beyond me...I have trouble getting things recorded and hosted just in audio. Youtube seems to attract a lot of comments about the playing, the guitar, comparisons with other players and missing the whole point...often it reduces to the age, race or "look" of a player completely ignoring the whole point. Sound quality is always bad...no bandwidth. The other thing is that almost all the demos on you tube show off amps and effects with a huge amount of distortion or other effects. Generally the subtleties of exotic wiring is lost to distortion (IMHO) and a lot of the modeled sounds now are so generic and compressed with noise cancellation...every guitar starts to sound the same. For that kind of thing...I think EVH showed that with high gain and distorted sounds, a single pickup is really all that is required using technique and the volume control to get a huge variety of tones. .... In more unusual sounds...I love what Jeff Beck does by rolling down the tone on one pickup with full treble on the other...almost like a harmonica (at least when he does it)...a standard strat mind you! For less useful sounds...the middle alone seems a little wasted on a strat to my ears...worth it for the positions 2 and 4 of course. The neck and bridge as an alternative is a good choice. All three pickups on a strat can be cool. I don't have a lot of experience with series wiring. Phase switching on a strat with more combinations can be outstanding...all three with neck OoP seems to be a nice one. I got good results when I wired separate phase switches to all strat pickups...the M+N and B+M have almost the opposite of the strat "quack"...a nice midrange warm sound with one pickup out of phase with the other. .... As you posted the thread...do you have any "favorites"? pete
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Post by newey on Aug 23, 2008 19:24:48 GMT -5
JohnH-
(Visualize Groucho Marx smiley here)
"If I had to play a cover band repertoire for 50 years, I'd be stomping on things, too."
But back to the thread, I'm with Pete12345: The 5 best sounds with what pickups? In which guitar? 4real's right, there's too much variation, and way too much subjectivity.
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Post by wolf on Aug 23, 2008 20:59:03 GMT -5
If a Strat type guitar 1) Middle & Bridge in parallel (what I call the "Sultans of Swing" sound. Not exactly how it is done but it is close enough for me). 2) Middle & Bridge in series - a nice overdriven humbucker type sound. For a dual humbucker guitar: 1) neck pickup (in parallel) alone - a nice bright rhythm type of sound. 2) neck pickup in series bridge pickup in parallel - both pickups in parallel with each other. 3) same as above except with both pickups in series with each other. A good overdriven sound. ... And for those who have a dual humbucker guitar, both humbuckers being DiMarzio X2N's   Neck pickup in series, bridge pickup in series and both pickups in series with each other. A fantastic (overdrive) ∞ type of sound. Really great if you're into total destruction. Play a few notes and watch your amp corrode. BWA-HA-HA !!! (Makes Led Zeppelin seem like Perry Como.)
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 23, 2008 22:39:03 GMT -5
My LP has SD 59's in it, but I really dig the sound of all 4 coils in series, too. On my strat, the only pickup I use by itself with any regularity is the middle, either in local parallel or series, depending on what I'm shooting for. It's kind of like a comprimise between the neck and the bridge, and different from neck+bridge. Of course, if I could pick just 5 combinations I wouldn't have so many guitars.
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rod79
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Post by rod79 on Aug 24, 2008 3:27:02 GMT -5
------
here are a few youtube strat demos. i was trying to sell the guitar so i out up a few vids to demo the sound and show what the passive mid boost could do.
i think the sound quality is quite good for hearing difference in pickups. saying that next time i would take off all the reverb as im in a small room.
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very interesting reports, maybe we dont need to do a poll, this is going quite well with folk just telling their favourites.
keep them coming boys.
i have 3 favs so far, you all probably know what they are by now! 1. Neck and 5. bridge hum for lead sounds 2. Neck+Middle for rythm
i really want to experiment in the future as im convinved there are better sounds out there to be had.
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i understand about youtube videos, i wasnt looking for people to rate them, that wasnt the point, it was just a sound demo.
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Post by 4real on Aug 24, 2008 6:21:55 GMT -5
Yes...youTube a blessing and a curse... Very tricky to tell from your vids...but it did link me to another surf green strat that perhaps better illustrates some of the sounds from a strat and some of the points I was making... As it happens...Stew makes some lovely surf themed guitars himself and I have helped him in minor ways (long distance) on some of them... This one for instance was complicated but went on to win the Guitar of the Month competition at PG... Jag shape but with strat-ish pickups...has separate pickup toggles so you can here all three pickups together and neck and bridge (two great sounds a strat does not normally have) Tele with filtertron clean...again with the criss craft boat theme... I see a new guitar with a muscle car theme...strat with an HB though...plus some split coil things... Still sounds pretty strat-y...not going to sound like a les Paul even though HB equiped! ... So...probably some pretty good demos of different sound combinations. Notice a good amp makes a fair bit of difference but still limited by the crap mics and youTube fidelity. Also...notice the difference the player's touch makes compared to your demos. Stew has a touch similar to mine a lot of the time (hard hitting ) and I suspect set up similar to mine with a slightly higher action and probably 10-46's giving a lot of snap. That is not a criticism of your playing BTW...there are lots of great lighter players...but every guitar plays and sounds different in another players hands. It does demonstrate another thing though that set up, string gauge, amps, etc all have a big effect...but the players touch probably has the biggest impact. Also...the same riff for different sounds is not always appropriate. My new tele's OoP neck and bridge sound has a bit of the hollow strat quack like quality but what it really excels at is funky chord melody kind of things (lots of snap and string definition), reggae stabs and chord stuff like "wind crys mary" seems to work really well. A worthy addition because I really like that kind of thing...but otherwise not that good for distorted lead and stuff...a little too wirey...horses for courses! There are a few extra sounds possible on the strat...but even more in your hands!!!! pete I want to learn to do some youTube stuff...most likely a collage of pics, text and better quality recorded sounds...but I have no idea about this kind of technology so could be a way off yet. Better to hear the sounds better produced and a fast loading visual than waiting around to load something that just doesn't cut it audio wise if showing off the sound and look of a guitar...also stops the usual comments (do you have TAB..., you are not as good as..., sounds like..., you are playing that wrong..., nice guitar, does it come in black..., I want a sustainer, can you make me one (I get that a bit!))Oh...and the lighting in some clips (not yours) are insanely bad!!!
Anyone got any tips for this kind of thing let me know...I think I might be getting some technophobia.
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rod79
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Post by rod79 on Aug 24, 2008 11:12:42 GMT -5
yeah , good vids man my vids sound like a bucket of mud on a planet of mud HAHA in comparison mine were done through a roland micro cube, but through a clean valve amp with no reverb would give much clarity. that makes me want to do a proper vid, the last ones were quickly done on a smal digital camera then uploaded onto youtube. had to cut them up into shorter time to get them on. there is a free download called windows movie maker and its real easy to use, i think thats how most people make youtube vids. the slide show idea with sound in the background is real easy to do with WMM you should check it out. i play 8,s coz im a bit of a wimp, i wish i had the strength to play 10,s as there is a certain majic that that gauge produces, but theres also something lost, its wierd. Heavy strings seem to distort quicker(need less gain to get the same effect-probably not explaining that right) im actually a hard hitting player or rather a dynamic player i play very soft as well, equally effective at times (as a teacher i encourage students to try and hit it so hard as if to break the string!) right il have to go and make another video now! ive always been a strat man, but in the last few years ive come to realise, i dont really like the sound of strats that much! i only like position 1. Neck and 2. Neck+middle position 5 has to be a humbucker for me now
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Post by ChrisK on Aug 24, 2008 12:46:31 GMT -5
As a combinatorial example, for three coils counting phase, taking 5 combinations at a time out of the 47 possible (17 sans phase and an additional 30 with), there are 1,533,939 possible combinations. C475 = 1,533,939 Be thankful that it isn't permutations ( P475 = 184,072,680).
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Post by andy on Aug 24, 2008 12:53:41 GMT -5
For the sake of accuracy, and in the name of science, I won't decide on my favourite until I have tried ALL of them.
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Post by 4real on Aug 24, 2008 13:31:05 GMT -5
Be thankful that it isn't permutations (P475 = 184,072,680). So how many "Uber Switches" would I need to make? ;D 8's....that's lighter than a banjo!!! A player like SRV used up to 13's...even a hendrix 10's What can sometimes be lost is speed (tapping, legato and sweeping can be harder) with heavier gauges...(even a Vai uses 9's however)...and the action can be lower...however...you loose so much more with light gauges. I am surprised you can even play in tune with 8's...they must be like rubber bands. Seriously...there are a lot of reasons to work up to higher gauge strings. - The less metal vibrating above the pickups...the less there is for the pickups to pickup
- Less tension...less mechanical force on the guitar, the less the vibrations in the wood
- Less Sustain...the pickup magnets will be slowing vibration
- More prone to wolf tones and weird harmonic influences
- Unable to play with power and authority when required
- Less dynamic range of the instrument...you have to play light, you have no choice.
Seriously...it is not about strength...remember that 10's used to be as light as you could get. It takes a little practice to build up the extra strength required but it will help your playing and your tone so much but how much strength do you think you need to have to hold down a little piece of wire only mm's from a fret? You appear to be able to hold down the heavier low strings easy enough! As for the affect on your amp...well that is what the volume control is for! In reality, your amp is expecting a reasonable input from your guitar and you can't give it to it with 8's. A mid-boost thing is a very poor substitute and will have little effect...it can only boost and cut things that are there in the signal and as a result of your light strings, there is not a lot to work with either. If you find the bending of strings to be restricted...examine your technique and look at how blues players and such bend...it is not so much strength as leverage. I have just come out of a fairly long spell of not playing regularly and I really felt it...stripped the callouses from my finger tips and all. Three weeks later and it is fine. This aspect and setting the guitar up to work properly with a higher gauge will help your guitar tone and playing so much it is worth the effort... pete
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rod79
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Post by rod79 on Aug 24, 2008 14:26:58 GMT -5
ive been playing for over a decade and have taught guitar 20hours a week for almost 4 years. in that time ive played with 8,s 9,s 10s, 11s, 12s, and ive done srv 13,s i teach over 40 students a week, and for speed and working things out and playing varied styles 8's are perfect for me at the moment there is a beautifull fullness in chords and notes that 10's or anything higher gives that 8's and 9,d cant. That is a fact. This list of benefits you gave. but... there is a certain sound that i can get on 8's that i cant get on 10's! its hard to describe but its like the notes on 10's are less defined, not quite as sharp (i dont mean trebley) although that i part of it too. I think 9's is the perfect compromise for having the best of both world for my ears and style anyway. i have 12's on my strat and i really dont like the sound at all(and im a hard hitting player) i hit 8's very hard and have no problem at all, i think if a persons plectrum technique is good there shouldn't be any issues. i have noticed slight tuning issues with 8's and just about every student i have who plays with 10's their guitars stay in tune well. For rhythm 10s are my fav for lead 8's beat 10's (just) im more of lead player so i have to lean to this compromise plus its easier on my wrist if im bending strings for 20 hours a week we'll have to start a what gauge of string is best poll!
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Post by 4real on Aug 24, 2008 15:46:56 GMT -5
True...sorry to come off as a " String Gauge Nazi"...it is really each to their own... There are certain styles that require very light gauges...the obvious is multiple stop bends in a country vein (I noticed you mentioned Arlen Roth for instance...or that slinky "midnight at the oasis Amos Garret sound) and the whole shredding thing where tapping, legato and similar techniques are near impossible with heavier gauges. The 80/90's metalish super wide vibrato is tricky to do with heavy gauges too. With a heavier gauge you need to put more effort into the picking hand too, a lighter touch can tend to fumble. 10's work for me...any higher, even a 10-52 really throws me off. Another compromise is to use heavier gauge strings and tune down which of course is how SRV and Hendrix could get away with it . I am hoping to do a similar thing by using three guitars because I am working on a few unaccompanied things lately. In order to add variety, I plan to use the same gauges and setup but have at least one guitar tuned down and another has a different scale length. Along with the different sound of the guitars, I hope to avoid listener fatigue caused by playing too much in similar keys (typically keys that can utilize open strings) and also provide a different feel to promote a different playing style. I find light strings tend to pitch sharp at the attack of the note as the act of striking them tends to pull them out unless the lightest of touches is used. It is not "wimpy" or lazy...as I say horses for courses...but it does illustrate how much strings and a players touch impact the pickup output and sound, the effect on the amp and even the impact of wiring and pickup combinations. I guess my reaction has been from fielding questions at PG recently where it is found that extremely light strings are being used and people are having trouble with tone and or technique. I find it amazing how a different feel and string gauge affects my playing "style"...I seem to naturally fall into a lot of fast legato-y kind of things with 9's or a super low action. On the other hand, I get far less definition of notes. I don't sound like me on unfamiliar guitars I guess I need the things to fight back a little. I also have a bias because of my work with the sustainer things...light strings don't have the mass and ferrous content to give a good response to the high strings. As the sustainer is very similar to a reverse pickup...these affects are accentuated and so has taught me a lot about both pickups and the physical nature of string vibrations. Fortunately I grew up in an era where 10's were considered "extra light" and I guess I didn't have as much choice. I use 10's even on acoustic! With so many students, I imagine you may well need light strings to be able to play a lot of what they may want to learn these days...I dare say if I were in that position, I would do the same... pete yes...a little off topic, perhaps a string gauge thread is required but most if not all has been said.
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rod79
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Post by rod79 on Aug 24, 2008 16:45:53 GMT -5
Ive never been satisfied with 8's, its been a temporary solution for a while now, Ive always wanted to consistently play higher gauge. is there more info on your sustainer device? your definitely challenging my status quo, i think i might get a bit radical and stick a set of 9's on my work guitar!!!! living on the edge eh? ;D my next plan is a telecaster with custom wiring, and a short scale 24 3/4 neck, hum sin sin pups. every time i play an sg or les paul or guitar with shorter neck it just fight my hand perfectly, and the fact i can play with heavier strings, 9's or 10,s. IL never go higher than than 10,s aye laddie (as they say in Scotland) ye ken fit yer spiken aboot fan it comes te strings (if you need an interpretation of that let me know ) ok, we shall turn this back into a 5 best pickup sound thread. cheers
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Post by 4real on Aug 24, 2008 17:05:52 GMT -5
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Post by newey on Aug 24, 2008 19:49:38 GMT -5
Well, this thread has wandered a bit, and If'n I were some kind of Goebbels administrator I would move it to the coffee shop where it really belongs. But it's a lively discussion so I'll leave it be. As far as string gauges go, I'm at the opposite end, I use 11s almost exclusively, with 12s on my acoustic, and I have a strat with 10s for practicing bends and so on. But I don't think you get the same tone with the lighter gauges, especially with a clean sound. If your shredding with the distortion on 11, then the gauge doesn't matter. For rhythm use, my Esquire-style with a single dual rails, and flatwound 11s is my favorite sound- at least this week, I'm fickle . . .
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Post by andy on Aug 24, 2008 20:42:29 GMT -5
Well, if we have permission to digress... I've been playing 10's for years. You could argue that I'm stuck in a rut, but I've not felt any need to change- the compromise between rhythm, lead, and good tone seem to be right there in a set of tenners. If I had a guitar purely for rhythm purposes, I might consider a heavier gauge, and my acoustic has 12's on it (another one I've sat with for years), but I'm just plain happy with 'em. As for pickups (and no, I haven't tried 'them all' yet!), I suppose I am a bit of a middle pickup guy. When I had Strats, the middle was always my 'go to' pickup, the neck being very distinctive, almost too much so, and the bridge being a bit thin, despite my love of a Tele bridge tone. The mid just seemed a good balance of warmth and snap, both clean and driven, with room to move in either direction if needed. Now, I have and SG and a Tele, both with added mid pickups, the SG having a softer tone at the neck, a harder one at the bridge, and a standard PAF in the middle, which is arguably the most useable tone, but again which has the balance between the thicker neck and punchier bridge tones. The Tele has the standard setup, but a Seymour Duncan JB Jr in the middle. It is less common that I use the mid on this, as my final 'best pickup settings' would be the three Tele ones in a multi-purpose sense, but the mid humbucker opens up the options even further with a (nearly) full scale 'Rock' tone added in, again with that balance of fullness and scream that I find the mid provides.
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Post by ChrisK on Aug 24, 2008 22:50:51 GMT -5
If you go for the leanest possible solution (of course with the most obscure switching), you only need a few more. Now, do you really want to know how to do this??? Keep in mind that my 8P3T version of the The HSS All Mode 'Caster (it can well be a SSS one) that uses a pp pot for series/parallel on the humbucker, a pp pot for neck phase, and a pp pot for the bridge or middle phase (one only needs phase control for n-1 pickups). This is a total of three 8P3T switches and three DPDT pp pots for all 47 possible combinations of three pickups with phase. Also, the combinatorial example for three coils counting phase, is for taking 5 combinations at a time out of the 47 possible (17 sans phase and an additional 30 with) and coming up with 5 position Strat switch groupings (there are 1,533,939 possible grouping combinations). C475 = 1,533,939 It's not a comment on the number of combinations on the guitar, it's a comment on the number of combinations in a possible reader's pole. If you really want to try to write these down I would suggest investing in a paper company. Also, you might find the "Towers of Hanoi" an interesting diversion as well. And, setting up a reader's pole for those 47 would still be formidable.
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Post by 4real on Aug 25, 2008 1:52:37 GMT -5
NO...
I am not at all I should have done it in the first place!
Still...I am keen to try the series sounds and I will know better next time!
cheers...pete
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Post by simes on Aug 25, 2008 6:43:54 GMT -5
My new set of Li’l Killers give me almost all the sounds I need. I prefer to use one amp setting for everything and control things from the guitar rather than via pedals.
1. slightly overdriven neck SC sound 2. <to be determined> 3. slightly overdriven neck + bridge SC sound 4. slightly overdriven middle + bridge SC sound 5a. slightly overdriven bridge SC sound 5b. overdriven bridge HB sound
I can add in a bit more dirt in positions 2, 3 and 4 by switching the bridge pickup (hotter than the other two) into internal series.
The one I’m not decided on is position 2, which I currently have as neck and bridge in series out of phase. It sounds cool, but I suspect its novelty value may wear off. Besides, the only people who are really going to appreciate the difference between that and the bridge HB are any other guitarists who happen to be in the audience.
On the other hand, I do miss a neck HB sound which, to my ear, the 6K neck PU doesn’t deliver. I’m toying with the idea of using position 2 for middle and neck in series (in phase). Has anybody tried this? I’m looking for something that would drive the amp a little more than the neck PU in order to have a second, distinct overdriven lead sound.
I use a set of 0.10’s, by the way, which I find to be a good balance between chunky sound and ease of playing.
Cheers,
simes
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Post by simes on Aug 25, 2008 10:20:48 GMT -5
Actually, I was just thinking ...
I realise that to us guitarists the infinite variations in tone are part of both the beauty of playing and the optimum delivery of the song, but to what extent would you say that the general public are able to distinguish anything beyond the following?
1. ooooooo 2. eeeeeee 3. twang 4. brrraaaangg 5. metal
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Post by andy on Aug 25, 2008 12:49:49 GMT -5
I think it is fair to say that this stuff is just for guitar nuts! In my experience, most people just know whether they think something sounds good or not. There may be a comparison with another band, but that will often be more to do with a vibe or feeling than the guitar sound. Once a non-muso has given their opinion, they will usually then apologise that they don't know anything about music, oddly enough, given that what we need the most are honest opinions from people who don't know or care which guitar you used and through what, but just whether it sounds good!
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Post by D2o on Aug 26, 2008 10:56:25 GMT -5
I think it is fair to say that this stuff is just for guitar nuts! In my experience, most people just know whether they think something sounds good or not. There may be a comparison with another band, but that will often be more to do with a vibe or feeling than the guitar sound. Once a non-muso has given their opinion, they will usually then apologise that they don't know anything about music, oddly enough, given that what we need the most are honest opinions from people who don't know or care which guitar you used and through what, but just whether it sounds good!I certainly don't intend this to take away from the technical answers presented so far, but well stated, Andy. DD
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Post by simes on Aug 26, 2008 11:23:24 GMT -5
Good point. It supports mine, in fact. What I mean is that I think we need to do enough to make our chosen sounds as close as possible to (a) what will sound good to our intended audience (b) what will best express the music we are trying to make and (c) what will allow us to develop something recognisable as our own. I tend to think that all three are best served by few rather than many sounds.
So, has anyone tried that N>M combination?
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Post by pete12345 on Aug 26, 2008 12:20:12 GMT -5
I have N>M on my strat, which gives a nice fairly bassy sort of sound, similar to a neck humbucker, except mine isnt hum-cancelling. It's quite nice for playing blues and such.
I think I prefer the series combinations to the parallel ones. TBH, the familiar parallel N+M and M+B weren't originally designed in to the strat, with players taking advantage of the shorting characteristic of the original switches, giving parallel sounds. I personally think series sounds better.
Pete
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Post by simes on Aug 26, 2008 14:53:31 GMT -5
Pete,
Is there a noticeable jump in output or "hotness" between the series position and the SC's? I mean, if you switch to that from, say, the neck SC, do you find it drives the amp more, like an HB would?
Cheers,
simes
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