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Post by mattmayfield on Sept 3, 2008 9:40:07 GMT -5
I think this is going to work well; it's for an HSS Strat. Anyone see any potential problems, or have any comments? Thanks, Matt
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 3, 2008 11:36:57 GMT -5
It appears that it will work as you anticipate. As to whether it works well, well I guess that that is up to you.
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 3, 2008 11:48:31 GMT -5
Seems like strange placement for some of these controls. Looks like it'll do what you're shooting for, and not a bad idea. Some people frown on shorting coils like you're doing in the neck-on position. Others complain about shunting like you're doing in the other position of that switch. Can't please everybody, can you? Expect the tone controls to interact and affect the overall tone of the guitar in combination settings. No real way around that.
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 3, 2008 12:09:46 GMT -5
Sure, whenever a particular pickup is selected, so is its tone control since they are wired directly to said pickup.
Now, the other half of the 5 way switch appears to not be in use.
You could have it select the desired tone control(s) a'la the standard Strat.
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Post by mattmayfield on Sept 3, 2008 15:35:44 GMT -5
Thanks for the advice!
I'm intending to use a different value cap for each pickup, so sharing one cap and wiring it the standard Strat way on the other half of the switch is out. Is there any advantage to using the other half of the switch that way when using separate caps?
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 3, 2008 18:38:12 GMT -5
The use of separate caps is completely unrelated to the use of the other half of the switch to select the tone controls.
The other side of the switch was used since it was there anyway (free) and it made the wiring easier.
The common cap was used since the original switch was a 3 way switch (as used in the tele) and two tone controls active at the same time were never possible anyway. Cheap is.
Now, those "notchy" folk that turned the 3 way into a 5 way messed everything up forever after.
Fortunately, Fender "woke up" to the benefits of the 3/5 way sometime in the 70's (aboot a decade late(r)).
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Post by mattmayfield on Sept 4, 2008 9:24:39 GMT -5
Chris, thanks - I knew the story behind the 5-way switch, but now that you mention it, it would be physically easier to wire the tone controls to the switch. Plus, wiring it that way, there are two possibilities for the N + M combination: with (N+M on switch) and without (M on switch, neck "on") the tone controls in the circuit.
Ashcatlt, this is kind of a hybrid schematic + illustration. That's not where the controls are physically. (I get the feeling you knew that and were kidding...) Thank you for the comments though.
Matt
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Post by JohnH on Sept 4, 2008 17:17:45 GMT -5
Nice optimisation of humcancelling in Bridge single coil mode!
I think I would have put the phase switch across the bridge instead of the mid, then that humcancelling benefit can extend to the phased combos too. John
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Post by mattmayfield on Sept 5, 2008 9:29:52 GMT -5
Thanks John. I thought about that, but wanted the Neck - Mid sound for an acoustic simulator effect and the Mid - Bridge sound for a Boston kind of tone. (I emulated them in my Variax to try them out.) I wired it up last night and everything worked as expected the first time..... except the bridge pickup as a whole is out of phase! It doesn't sound out of phase with the neck, but definitely does with the middle. I'm not going to bother with fixing it yet, since I can still flip the mid pickup's phase to get the normal B+M sound. Thanks! Matt
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Post by newey on Sept 5, 2008 11:02:02 GMT -5
Isn't this normal operation of this wiring scheme? What about it is not working correctly? Unless you have somehow marked the positions of your mid phase switch, in which case you can simply rotate the switch 180 degrees.
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Post by mattmayfield on Sept 5, 2008 11:33:40 GMT -5
I don't mean out of phase as in hum-canceling; I mean out of phase as in sound-canceling.
With the bridge in single-coil mode, and the mid pickup in normal mode, the sounds are:
N N + M (hum-canceling, in-phase) M M - B (hum-canceling, but out-of-phase very thin sound) B
With the mid phase switched:
N N - M (hum, out-of-phase thin sound) M M + B (hum, but sounds full, close to traditional "quack") B
I'm guessing that this indicates that the bridge pickup is magnetically out-of-phase with the other two pickups. It's a mystery to me, though, because the N + B combo does sound full as though it was in-phase.
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Post by D2o on Sept 5, 2008 12:01:23 GMT -5
I don't mean out of phase as in hum-canceling; I mean out of phase as in sound-canceling. With the bridge in single-coil mode, and the mid pickup in normal mode, the sounds are: ..... M - B (hum-canceling, but out-of-phase very thin sound) ..... I'm guessing that this indicates that the bridge pickup is magnetically out-of-phase with the other two pickups. It's a mystery to me, though, because the N + B combo does sound full as though it was in-phase. Yeah - sure sounds like it ... M & B at least. Normally, when that happens you can just reverse the wires of one of the pickups as a simple fix (not necessarily an ideal fix, but simple). In this case, since M & N seems fine, you would reverse the bridge pickup wires. However, because you've got so much else going on here, I'm not really sure what would happen if you reversed the bridge pickup wires. DD EDIT: scratch that - my simple fix was intended for a SSS strat. I forgot that you have a humbucker at the bridge.
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 5, 2008 13:25:16 GMT -5
It's basically the same deal with an HB, though.
You're having this problem when the HB is split? How is M+B when in full HB mode?
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Post by newey on Sept 5, 2008 14:12:16 GMT -5
Ok, I see now what you mean via your list of switch positions.
Ash's question is relevant, if the bridge HB is OOP sounding in the same position as when the single bridge coil (either one, doesn't matter) is selected, then you need to swap the signal "send" of the one bridge coil with the return of the other.
If the bridge HB sounds in phase in position 4, then you have another issue entirely.
You mean electrically out-of-phase; magnets don't (to my knowledge) have a "phase". They do have "polarity", however.
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Post by mattmayfield on Sept 5, 2008 14:32:21 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies.
The same thing happens when in full humbucker mode - I'm still puzzling out the ramifications of switching the phase of one of the pickups and still having it be hum-canceling. I think when I said magnetic polarity I meant which direction the pickup is wound; whatever it is that RWRP refers to so that when combined with a standard-wound pickup, the hum is out of phase and canceled out, yet the signal is in phase.
I believe that the problem would also be solved by swapping the position of the neck & mid pickups, and also reversing their wiring. (No tiny switch soldering; just wire splices.)
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Post by newey on Sept 5, 2008 16:03:46 GMT -5
Matt-
I'm stumped, if you just swap the wires on the bridge HB you'll be putting it OOP with the neck. So there's something more going on here, between your mid phase switch and the way the 5-way is wired.
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Post by JohnH on Sept 5, 2008 17:23:19 GMT -5
There's something defiant of logic going on here!
from your first group of results with the phase switch in the first position:
N N + M (hum-canceling, in-phase) M M - B (hum-canceling, but out-of-phase very thin sound) B
and noting the N+B seems in phase for sound.
just thinking about the sound phase - humcancelling can follow
Its impossible!
If N and B are the same phase, then M can only be the same as both or different to both.
So, maybe check carefully all those sounds again, particularly the N and B ones.
If you have an analogue meter, the screwdriver pulloff test is diagnostic. (meter on lowest volts setting, connected to guitar output, put screwdriver tip on each pole and lift quickly, needle will jump the same way for all pickups in phase in that combo. It doesnt matter which way it jumps, only that it jumps the same for the various coils active in a particular combo)
John
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Post by mattmayfield on Sept 8, 2008 9:42:59 GMT -5
Aha! I figured out the contradiction - thanks to everyone for the comments and suggestions.
On further listening, the N + B is actually *out of phase.* The positions and sounds of the pickups are so different that it is not much quieter, but comparing the level closely, N + B is slightly less than B alone. I should have recognized the sound...
So now the mystery is resolved and it is time to fire up the soldering iron again.
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Post by JohnH on Sept 8, 2008 15:36:10 GMT -5
Good - while you have your listening hat on, it might be a good idea to turn up some gain and check which combos are humcancelling, including those with a single coil at the bridge. It might affect which wires you move to fix the phase problem.
John
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