Puzzle - need help

[UlldotteN]

Hi, I've got a Mexican Fat Strat HSS with Locking Tremolo, second handed and the previous owner removed one tone pot, and made the other a master tone control. Not important really, because I need to swap it all out for my new pickups:

EMG 60A (Neck, humbucker, gonna buy one soon)
emginc.com/displayproducts.asp?section=Guitar&categoryid=6&catalogid=4
EMG SV (Mid, singel-coil, got one)
emginc.com/displayproducts.asp?section=Guitar&categoryid=7&catalogid=48
EMG 81TW (Bridge, splittable humbucker through volume push pull knob, being shipped)
emginc.com/displayproducts.asp?section=Guitar&categoryid=6&catalogid=190

All these pickups are active, but that doesn't change the wiring too much.
I'd like the setup to be 2 Volume (1=Bridge, 2=Mid+Neck) and 1 Tone, plus the 5-way switch i have, standard wiring (N,N+M,M,M+B,B)
I've tried studying EMG's manuals at their website, but none of them show's in detail how to wire 3 pups with 2 volume, or how to wire the switch.
I've made a diagram following the recipe for "2 pickups, 2 volume (independent), 1 master tone, w/gibson style toggle switch" from 81TW's product sheet, as it's the closest i could find, but i couldn't figure where to connect the wire from the neck pickup, exept maybe the braid to volume 2 casing.
Can anyone help me solve this puzzle?

So where does the white wire from the neck pup go, which wire goes where on the switch, and does the rest look ok?

[newey]

Ulldotten-

Hello and Welcome!

You will need to give us more information on:

the 5-way switch i have

because there are different types with different lug patterns, although they all work basically alike.

Your neck pickup connects to the switch. So does your mid pickup. Your mid + neck volume control will be wired off of the switch as well.

In order to tell you exactly where, we need to know the type of switch you have. Photos or a diagram of the arrangement of the lugs thereon should shed some light.

[ChrisK]

Since you want to share one volume pot between the neck and middle pickups, one pole (section) of the 5-way switch will have to select the neck/neck+middle/middle/middle+none/none for the white leads from the neck and middle pickups to the wiper of their volume pot.

The other pole (section) of the 5-way switch will have to select the none/none+none/none/bridge+none/bridge for the white lead from the bridge pickup to the wiper of its volume pot.

The hot terminals of both volume pots will be connected together, to the master tone circuit, and to the tip terminal of the output jack.


Conversely, to avoid having both volume pots always in circuit, the first pole can select the neck/neck+middle/middle/middle+none/none for the white leads from the neck and middle pickups to the wiper of their volume pot as before.

The bridge pickup can be connected to the wiper on the bridge volume pot,

The other pole of the 5-way switch can select the NMVolPotHot/NMVolPotHot/NMVolPotHot/NMVolPotHot+BVolPotHot/BVolPotHot for the output to the master tone circuit, and to the tip terminal of the output jack.


The shields of each pickup should be connected to their respective volume pot back shells, and all to circuit ground.

The red wires of course come from the battery (+).


Your drawing of the 5-way switch and output jack lack specific detail or meaning. The switch has two sections. The output jack will have a tip, ring, and sleeve connection,

Your drawing of the bridge volume pot has the two end terminals reversed (circuit ground and hot).

[UlldotteN]

The output jack will have a tip, ring, and sleeve connection(...)

The output plug is pre-wired by EMG, they send one along with all their PUs.
I don't have an ohmmeter, and it's not easy too see which wire goes where, but this is taken from their .pdf, and is as i said the most similar wiring I've found

I believe the switch is a "standard fender" switch, 4 lugs on each side (8 in total). Is it a DPDT?

Your drawing of the bridge volume pot has the two end terminals reversed (circuit ground and hot).

Not according to their diagram? green and white wire in, same side as white (hot) out? I see the mechanical error, as 0 would be full volume here, but i mirrored the image instead of rotating it, so... my bad, fixed the image now
Does it look better now? Still isn't done tho..

[ChrisK]

I believe the switch is a "standard fender" switch, 4 lugs on each side (8 in total). Is it a DPDT?

No, it is a DP3T shorting (make before break) lever switch with two extra notches in the shorting positions. While it has 5 distinct positions, it is not a DP5T switch. It is exactly the same switch electrically as a Tele DP3T lever switch.

Also I don't know how to draw these diagrams so i just placed that connection across that i see everywhere else (a1-b4) in the main drawing

Which is not correct since you want something that everyone else doesn't want everywhere else.

This might help on switches. Electronics Templates

www.alloutput.com/Wiring/5way.html


You need to re-read my first post where I describe how to do this design, first with both volume pots always in the circuit, and second with each volume pot in circuit only if the connected pickups are selected (you need to choose which one that you want - I suggest door number 2). Once you understand the switch, you can "see" what I say.

One pole (side) of the lever switch will be used to select which pickup (neck and/or middle) will go to the neck/middle volume pot wiper.

The bridge pickup is always connected to the wiper of the bridge volume pot.

The other pole will select which volume pot hot terminal is selected and connected to the output jack "tip" and to the master tone pot circuit.

On my drawings of lever switches, "P" denotes the pole terminal for each section/side.


I'm doing things this way to determine what you can "see". I could just draw a diagram, but my time isn't free, and costs the poster their full attention.


Your stereo jack diagram is incorrect. The EMG one has "T", "R", and "S" which stand for "tip, ring. and sleeve" (your black wires are reversed). The "tip" is the signal output like all other guitars. The "sleeve" is the signal ground like all other guitars.......

[UlldotteN]

Thanks for your patience
I've read up on switches now, and as far as i can tell, the volume and switch is now correctly wired, and the tone is wired like the diagram from EMG (my previous post) so it better be right .

Your stereo jack diagram is incorrect. The EMG one has "T", "R", and "S" which stand for "tip, ring. and sleeve" (your black wires are reversed). The "tip" is the signal output like all other guitars. The "sleeve" is the signal ground like all other guitars.......

The battery connector is prewired to the ouput jack... Now I'm really confused, the diagram shows that it's supposed to be to the ring, but it's prewired to the third lug, which looks like it's connected to the sleeve instead of the ring like the diagram shows, and the center lug is connected to the sleeve according to the diagram... Gah, let's take another look >.<
White, connected to the first lug goes too... Tip, good...
Black, center lug, goes to.. Ring
Black, third lug, prewired to battery connector... Sleeve, sheesh, it's a maze...
So i was halfway right, the center and third lug are mixed up IRL vs diagram, and i'll have to unsolder the battery connector, resolder it to the ring instead ...

I still don't quite understand how the tone pot works in all this (I know how a pot works, that a cap filters frequencies, and that it cuts the signal instead of boosting, but still - "input" - the white from the switch is directly connected to the output javk since they're on the same lug so how does turning a pot that it's not linked to [in my eyes] change the signal??), but it doesn't matter as long as the wirings correct. Is it? Thx for your help

[ChrisK]

tedfixx!Most excellent!

You "see" things well.

Rather than engage in more word-smithing, I'm posting a slightly edited version of your drawing. It will clarify that whole unfortunate output jack conundrum.

I added some "direction" on how the lever switch needs to be oriented.

I also added a connection between the pot cases (I never rely on the cavity or pickguard shield for this, it's NOT a conductor, it's a shield).


Again, most excellent!


Stick around, we need you.

[ChrisK]

but still - "input" - the white from the switch is directly connected to the output jack since they're on the same lug so how

Input and output are relative. The output jack on the guitar is connected to the input jack on the amp.

I still don't quite understand how the tone pot works in all this (I know how a pot works

OK.

that a cap filters frequencies

Uh, there's a bit more to it than this. A capacitor has capacitive reactance. This is one component of the tone circuit impedance.

Capacitive reactance is defined as 1/(2*PI*Freq*Capacitance).
PI is 3.141592654....
Freq is the particular frequency of analysis.
Capacitance is in Farads.

At 100 Hz, a 0.1 uF cap has a reactance of Xc = 15,915 Ohms.
At 1 Khz, a 0.1 uF cap has a reactance of Xc = 1,591.5 Ohms.
At 10 Khz, a 0.1 uF cap has a reactance of Xc = 159.15 Ohms.

As one can see, the reactance of a capacitor is frequency dependent, and decreases with an increase in frequency.

The tone pot has resistance. The combined impedance is the vector sum of the reactance(s) and resistance (the root of the sum of the squares).

Z = (r^² + Xc^²)^^1/2


If the pot is at 25,000 Ohms and the cap is 0.1 uF;

At 100 Hz, the impedance is = 29,636 Ohms.
At 1 Khz, the impedance is = 25,051 Ohms.
At 10 Khz, the impedance is = 25,001 Ohms.


If the pot is at 10,000 Ohms and the cap is 0.1 uF;

At 100 Hz, the impedance is = 18,796 Ohms.
At 1 Khz, the impedance is = 10,126 Ohms.
At 10 Khz, the impedance is = 10,001 Ohms.


If the pot is at 2,000 Ohms and the cap is 0.1 uF;

At 100 Hz, the impedance is = 16,041 Ohms.
At 1 Khz, the impedance is = 2,556 Ohms.
At 10 Khz, the impedance is = 2,006 Ohms.


As one can see, the overall impedance varies with the setting of the tone pot, with the higher frequencies having a lower impedance than the low frequencies.


Now, the tone circuit is in parallel (across) with the output signal and ground. As a result, it shunts the output signal to ground by forming a frequency-dependent AC voltage divider comprised of the tone pot reactive components across the output and the pickup reactive components which, in this active pickup case have an output impedance (mostly resistance) of 10,000 Ohms, in series with the output.

In essence. it (increasingly) attenuates the output signal level as a function of increasing frequency.

If the tone circuit was in series with the output signal, it would cut the low frequencies.

[ChrisK]

Oh, and make sure that all of the EMG pickup shields (braids) are soldered to the backs of their respective pot cases.

This is the pickup ground as well as the shield.


When you updated the design drawing at the beginning of a post, please add test such as "Edited on date".

I prefer the format CCYYMMDD, today is 20081219. This is the ONLY correct way to numerically specify a date, since it is a pre-scale factor of "clock time", and hence only a more granular reference to a point in time.

CCYYMMDDHHMMSS

In Europe they do it backwards, and in the U.S., it's inside-out. In Asia (or at least Korea), they get it.


Now, I'm not having significant success convincing the rest of the world to adopt this method (along with my file dating scheme), but then, most people a'planet are croutons anyway.

[gumbo]

Down here, we just say "Thudder Day"...... ;D

[jetmeck]

Well ChrisK you will be happy to know the US Air Force agrees with you and uses your date format.

[cynical1]

Dec 24, 2008 9:50:29 GMT -5 jetmeck said:

...the US Air Force agrees with you and uses your date format.

...you know, I always wondered if "Location: Location: Location" was synonymous with Area 51...

[ChrisK]

you will be happy to know the US Air Force agrees with you and uses your date format.

Finally!

You will be concerned to know that, at one time I was in the Army, stationed with the Air Force, and often wore civilian clothes. I also carried a concealed side arm (in theory to commit suicide in the event of capture) and had access to the suite of nuclear battle plans (you really DON'T want to know).


Area 51 was just small beer.


Remember,

Aerospace engineers make weapon systems,

Civil engineers make targets.


Merry Christmas to all.

[newey]

Aerospace engineers make weapon systems,
Civil engineers make targets.

And "sanitation engineers" pick up the pieces . . . ;D