foigelman
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Post by foigelman on Feb 18, 2009 5:45:56 GMT -5
HI, my name is Martin, I've came throught guitar nutz. I did the Shielding and the hum is almost gone away, for that I am thankfull. But I experienced a sort of "sound cutting", I don't really know if that is the right name to call it but this is how it feels. I'm using an orange drop cap for the tone 0.022uf 400v 225p and a mullard 0.33uf 400v for the safety. I've used a standart cap for the tone before I changed it for the orange and the sound is different but the cutting is almost the same.
When I'm playing clean the sound is bright an beautifull allthou the lower sound are a little cutted off. When I use overdrive pedal it sounds rare, the lower notes are almost 50% cutted off I'll say... and when I use the muff (big muff pai) pedal it is simply terrible.
I'll appriciate any answer since I'm going nutz, guitarutz!!!
Thanks. Martin Foigelman.
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Post by newey on Feb 18, 2009 6:49:26 GMT -5
Martin-
Hello and Welcome!
I don't really have an answer for your problem yet, but help will be coming along soon. More information will be needed.
First, can we assume that this is a Strat-type guitar? And that it did not display this behavior before you did the shielding job?
Did you alter the height of the pickups at all? Is this "sound cutting" you describe the same regardless of the position of the Vol and Tone pots, and does it happen in all switch positions?
You will probably need to post some pictures of your wiring. Do you have a multimeter?
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Post by ChrisK on Feb 18, 2009 12:28:02 GMT -5
Hi, and welcome a'board. OK. I know what "mullard 0.33uF 400v for the safety" [cap] means. It is a 0.33 uF 400VDC cap. What does "orange drop cap for the tone 0.022uF 400v 225p" mean? If it is a 0.22 uF 400 VDC cap (a 50 VDC cap would be fine), what does "225p" mean? If this is what the cap is marked, it is a 2.2 uF cap (22 followed by 5 zeros in pF, or 2,200,000 pF). A 0.022 uF cap would be marked 223.
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foigelman
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Post by foigelman on Feb 19, 2009 11:12:00 GMT -5
Hi, thank you for answering so fast. Yes my guitar is a Mexican Standard Stratocaster and the 225p on the cap is a mark that says Polyester Film / Foil type capacitors.(in all Sprague Orange Caps) Oh... and yes it says 223k The guitar obviously did not had this problem before the shielding and it sounds worst as I go from the bridge to the neck pickup. I think this is because the "cutting" is on the lower notes, and the neck pickup gets them more. I've changed the height of the pick ups but not too much, and I've also "played" with this feature before the shielding with no problem. I do not have a multimeter but I can borrow from a friend ...... Some questions: 1)The volume knob suffered some heat during the shielding... could this be the problem??? 2)Does the place where the ground signal is placed affect something? because I did not use a ring under the volume knob as the manual says, I just soldered the end of the wire that is attached to the 0.33uf cap to the pickguard (shielded) So.... this is as much info I can give at the moment. I'll be thankful for any idea or answer! Thank you people very much!!! I appreciate your kindness!!! Martin Foigelman.
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Post by ChrisK on Feb 19, 2009 13:54:18 GMT -5
Can you post a picture of the wiring?
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foigelman
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Post by foigelman on Feb 25, 2009 6:04:04 GMT -5
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foigelman
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Post by foigelman on Mar 1, 2009 13:54:23 GMT -5
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Post by ashcatlt on Mar 1, 2009 14:18:17 GMT -5
I'm still a little unsure what exactly the problem is. Are you saying that it goes to silence intermittently, especially when playing more quietly, and especially with pedals?
To be honest the pictures you posted all look really good. I think you did a fine job. A melted volume pot might just do what I think you're asking about, but soldering the cap to the shielding shouildn't.
It's not a bad idea to go through and check every solder joint to make sure it's solid, but I actually suspect the trouble might be from somewhere outside the guitar.
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foigelman
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Post by foigelman on Mar 13, 2009 7:19:51 GMT -5
Oh, I shouldn't solder a wire between the "shield" and that piece of metal holding the tremolo springs do I?? Because that's what I did.....
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Post by ashcatlt on Mar 13, 2009 9:16:26 GMT -5
Yeah, that's standard practice. It allows the strings (and thus, you) to connect to ground, reducing your contribution to the noise signal.
I'm still not completely convinced that it's the guitar. Have you tried this with different cables, pedals, amps? Have you tried other guitars through the same pedals and stuff?
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foigelman
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Post by foigelman on Mar 14, 2009 11:17:20 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure it is the guitar because I played in another amp with the same guitar and same problem.!!!
This week I'll change all the 250k pots and the 0.22uf cap for a stewmac.com wiring kit.
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Post by newey on Mar 14, 2009 12:32:24 GMT -5
Foigelman-
I think we're all having problems understanding exactly what's going on with your guitar. Ash thought you were talking about an intermittent cutting out, and you really haven't clarified whether that is the issue or not.
I read your initial description of the problem a bit differently, but I'm not sure exactly what you mean either. I understood you to mean that:
1) The clean sound is bright and the low frequencies seem somewhat attenuated.
2) With distortion, the lows are even more attenuated, on the order of an 50% decrease.
3) With your Big Muff pedal, it is worse yet, which I take to mean the lows are even further attenuated.
Is that what you are experiencing? Certainly, if there is a problem with the low frequencies not coming through, that problem will seem to worsen with distortion/boost/gain application.
A bad pot is a possibility, but you seem to indicate you're about to undertake a wholesale rewiring. That may not be needed, but we can't tell unless the problem is better delineated.
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Post by ChrisK on Mar 14, 2009 12:38:19 GMT -5
This sounds like a high-pass filter effect with the effect increasing perhaps as the signal input load is decreased.
When I look at the photos, I see that the tone cap is soldered to a wire. That connection looks to be uninsulated. If that connection shorts to the side of the pot shell, any benefit from the isolation cap is eliminated.
I really can't tell a great deal more from your photos.
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Post by sumgai on Mar 15, 2009 2:02:40 GMT -5
Martin, Hi, and welcome to the NutzHouse! I'm wondering about the value of that resistor in your treble-bleed circuit on your volume pot. I might be color blind, but I just can't seem to figure it any other way than Brown Green Black Gold (top to bottom in Photos #5 #8). That would give you 15Ω at 5% tolerance, no? Either that, or the third band is either also green, yielding 1.5MΩ, or perhaps even blue, which would be an even wilder 15MΩ. Or thereaboots. Needless to say, none of those values will do you much good, but only one of them will exhibit dreadful tonal quality - I'm sure you can guess which one. I'd opt for a resistor banded with the colors Brown Green Yellow, that should yield 150KΩ, the value prescribed by 4 out of 5 doctors everywhere. That is, of course, considering that you're using the usual 1 to 2.2nf cap for that circuit. If not, then perhaps we could direct you to one or more threads on this forum that discuss the topic in detail. Tell us what the results are after that small modification..... BTW, nice work, very clean. Could have been a lower voltage tone cap, per Chris's suggestion, but granted, that would have helped only in terms of ease of installation, and tucking everything into place in the cavity during final assembly. And the striped tape gives it that Eddie Van Halen look! HTH sumgai
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Post by ChrisK on Mar 15, 2009 20:59:55 GMT -5
Maybe, but that could also be a 1% resistor.
In that case it would be a Brown-Green-Black, Yellow which would be 150 and 3 zeros or 150,000 Ohms.
The fifth band could be tolerance (but, with three significant digits it's likely redundant) or probably reliability rating.
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Post by sumgai on Mar 15, 2009 22:13:09 GMT -5
Chris, That would certainly be true, if the 5th band were Brown, to indicate the 1% tolerance. I'm not gonna pass judgement on what color it actually is, my color resolving-fu is very weak. Anyone up for Mil-spec tone? sumgai
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Post by ChrisK on Mar 15, 2009 22:48:19 GMT -5
Well, we don't know where that resistor was or where it came from. Measurement is. I have a 0.1% tolerance resistor index under my desk at work. Of course these are SMT. I'll routinely use 1% resistors in lieu of 5% ones since even in small quantity the cost difference is minimal. 5% 0603 SMT are $0.002 each on a 5,000 piece reel. 1% 0603 SMT are $0.003 each on a 5,000 piece reel. 0.1% 0603 SMT are $0.08 each on a 5,000 piece reel. The 0.01% stuff gets pricey, $0.84 each on a 1,000 piece reel. There is a similar lack of cost difference between 1% and 5% axial resistors as well. I also have a fine index of 1% film capacitors....... So, I've learned to deal with extra bands. The point is, depending on where one is, you grab what's there....
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foigelman
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Post by foigelman on Mar 21, 2009 14:15:19 GMT -5
Hi and thank you all people for trying to solve my problem. I'm sorry that I've caused all this "trouble". First of all, and I'd should told this earlier, the bleed cap and resistor are not affecting, I have added them after the problem began and without having any change to the sound. Second newey, you'd understand the problem in the right way! And how do I know if I have a bad pot? Thank you all very much you are too kind!!
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Post by newey on Mar 22, 2009 1:06:00 GMT -5
You haven't caused any trouble, just some debate about what your photos show, or rather, what they don't (clearly) show.
You can solve the debate, however, by reporting the order of the color bands on the resistor. Or, better yet, test it with a multimeter and report its actual value.
But this is only a side issue- if the cap and resistor were added later and didn't have any effect, then something else is going on here.
It's probably best to eliminate some variables here to narrow down the possible culprits. I'd remove the cap and resistor, and put the guitar back to the way it was when you first noticed the problem.
To test the pot, disconnect it while you're in there, and check its resistance with a multimeter. Go from either of the outside lugs to the center lug, with the pot turned fully clockwise, and take readings at about 25% rotation, 50% rotation, 75% rotation, and at full counterclockwise. Report your results.
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foigelman
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Post by foigelman on Mar 23, 2009 6:28:42 GMT -5
volume 1-2 1-3 2-3 0%-----303 302 001 25%----301 302 002 50%-----291 302 012 75%-----243 299 062 100%----01 303 302
tone #1 1-2 1-3 2-3 0%---- 275 275 001 25%----272 275 004 50%----262 275 014 75%----230 273 047 100%----001 275 275
tone #2 1-2 1-3 2-3 0%-----285 285 001 25%----276 285 010 50% ---256 285 032 75%----148 283 154 100%---001 286 285
I hope those are the right measures. Martin Foigelman
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foigelman
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Post by foigelman on May 20, 2009 4:01:59 GMT -5
Hi everybody, and thanks so far.
I've had tested and posted the results of my pots, nobody answered!!! please help!!!.
Any way I've purchased and replaced the pots with new ones from stewmac.com, there was an improvement I have to say but the problem is still there.
So I'm hoping somebody comes up with some idea before I take my guitar to the music shop next week...(I really want to understand the problem so I don't repeat it on my next guitars to shield)
Thank you all again!!! Martin Foigelman.
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Post by ChrisK on May 20, 2009 19:27:00 GMT -5
The pot values look ok.
I can't see your pictures from where I am (VPN blocking), so I don't know/remember what you did.
It still sounds like a high-pass filter effect, as if there was some small capacitance in series with the output.
When you select a pickup, with both/all pots turned to "10" (in a right-handed world), what resistance do you read at the output jack (you can touch the meter leads to the other unplugged end of a guitar cable plugged into the guitar)?
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Post by sumgai on May 20, 2009 22:10:19 GMT -5
Martin,
Another test.....
When you measure the resistance at the output jack as Chris instructed, above, what happens when you reverse the two meter leads? Does the meter immediately display the same value as before, or is there a noticible time lag before it gets back to the same value (reading)? This will give us a clue as to whether or not there is a capacitor in series with the circuit, as posited by Chris earlier in this thread.
sumgai
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foigelman
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Post by foigelman on May 23, 2009 6:50:51 GMT -5
OK, I will perform the test and sorry for the lack of knowledge, in which mode of the multimeter I should do it? 2000k, 200k, 20 k, and so.....?
Thanks!!! ;D ;D
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foigelman
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Post by foigelman on May 23, 2009 7:03:06 GMT -5
Hi I did the test on 20k switch in the multimeter, I was too impatience!!! It shows 6.85 after a second and as I switch the cables, it runs to 4.something and 7, 10, 14, and eventually to 6.84 (not 6.85). so,,, any other info you guys need just ask.
Thank you very much for the help!!!
Martin Foigelman.
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Post by sumgai on May 23, 2009 11:00:25 GMT -5
Martin, The fact that you observed the meter moving slowly from one extreme to the other when you reversed the leads tells us that ChrisK's original guess is correct - you have a capacitor in series with your output wiring. It could be physically almost anywhere in your circuit, but trust me, it's there. Time to put on your Sherlock Holmes hat. Good luck! Oh, and the very slight difference between the two readings is OK, it happens almost all the time. No need to worry about that part. HTH sumgai
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Post by JohnH on May 23, 2009 19:16:27 GMT -5
Its an odd thing though. If a cap was simply in series with everything else, then the resistance readings would tend to rise to infinity, instead of settling on what looks like close to a pickup resistance. Digi meters do take a couple of sec to settle on a reading - when you do that leads reversing test, is the reading changing over noticeably longer time than normal? (say as compared to when you just touch the leads together and the reading settles on a low or zero value) I wouldnt mind seeing the photos, but the link seems to have expired. Can you reinstate it?
John
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Post by sumgai on May 23, 2009 21:10:38 GMT -5
John, It's in parallel with one or more of the coils. sumgai
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foigelman
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Post by foigelman on May 26, 2009 16:32:59 GMT -5
Hi everybody and thanks for the answers!!
I'll should start the operation as soon as I get some time. But, and sorry for the ignorance, what does it mean a cap. in series?? what should I do in respect? what to search for?
I got right now installed a 0.22uf orange cap. for tone, and 0.33uf mullard mustard vinage for safty.
I will upload new photos (with the new pots) shortly.
thanks!!!!!
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