|
Post by ashcatlt on Mar 17, 2009 23:51:54 GMT -5
Does this belong here, or in Lutherie? It's kind of the opposite of "Applied Whammy..." Ah well.
I have no practical use for a whammy. Sometimes I like to think of the neat things I might do with a working wiggle stick, but when it comes down to it the few times I'd actually use it are far outweighed by the hassle of trying to tune the darn thing.
But I like having the springs. First, because I like to play them sometimes. Second, because in my Behringer the springs actually resonate with strings (see below). I don't know that this impacts the electric tone much, but I can hear it when I'm playing unplugged, and I like it.
I've currently got 3 springs installed. I've threaded a heavy aluminum wire through the middle of these and tourniquetted it down to where the bridge will not move. It still drops out of tune if a string breaks, but I blame the neck for this.
I'd like, however, a more solid connection between the bridge/tremblock and the body. You know, so I can get more of the strings energy resonating in the body itself. I guess some of what makes a strat sound like one is its relative lack of sustain, but this thing has to sub for a Tele sometimes too, and...
I'd like to be able to block in that tremolo. Problem is, I have neither the tools, the time, the skills, nor the patience to fashion a proper retrofit out of nice tonewood. So one night the idea hit me that I might fill the cavity around the tremblock with wood filler type stuff. This would conform perfectly to the cavity without any tedious measurements and etc. We may have to find a way to seal the bridge/body connection so we don't get too much seepage.
My reservation on this is that the stuff just won't be hard enough. It'll either crumble under the pressure or be so spongy as to rob the strings of energy - the opposite of the point. I've never used the stuff though, so I'm not sure how it would turn out.
Anybody got ideas on that. If not wood filler, what else might we use? Fiberglass? Epoxy? Resins? Molten lead?
|
|
|
Post by newey on Mar 18, 2009 10:46:39 GMT -5
I would think that would be a problem. Some sort of epoxy/resin stuff might work. But won't this also affect your use of the springs?
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Mar 18, 2009 11:25:29 GMT -5
I just blocked the trem cavity on project guitar #2. It isn't as involved as you might think. A router, dremel tool, some clamps, some 1" oak boards (about $5.00 at Home Depot) to form the stop forms for the bearing router bit...and some good wood glue... You could start out with something like this: It's a HIPSHOT ADAPTER BLOCK FOR FENDER STRATOCASTERabout $20.00 It won't fit perfectly, but you could shim it so it's snug when you glue it. Once the glue dries you can use epoxy wood filler to cover the gaps and allow a smooth re-paintable surface As far as wood filler, I only use epoxy wood filler on the guitars. This stuff is tough as nails. I don't know how it would handle the entire cavity fill, though. It routes very cleanly, but I'm not sure how it would handle holding screws for a bridge. Off the top of my head, you could essentially layer an epoxy wood filler and a marine epoxy catalyst resin until you had the cavity filled. This strikes me as a lot more work then it's worth...as I have no idea if it would hold up...it just sounded good... As far as "good tone wood" for the material fill...for the small amount you're going to be using, you could use any hard wood for the parts. As long as there is a tight fit, either from precise routing, or shims wedge in to make a tight fit, you should be fine. As a side note, on the cavity fill I did on project #2, I didn't fill the back spring cavity flush. I left a 3/8" gap to create a chamber. I continued this chamber into the space between the bridge and the bridge pickup, then covered the top bridge cavity with a 3/4" piece of wood. We'll see if this theory produces anything useful. BTW, I used oak for all the cavity fills. Hope this helps Happy Trails Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by ashcatlt on Mar 18, 2009 13:36:36 GMT -5
Perhaps I should clarify a little bit. I'm not actually talking about filling in the entire cavity and replacing the bridge with a hardtail.
What I'm looking to do is fill (some, most, or all of) the cavity around the tremblock so it can't move, and contacts a good amount of something hard that will transmit the vibrations to the rest of the body. I'd leave the spring cavity alone, and leave the springs mounted as they currently are.
This epoxy wood filler, you say it's "tough as nails". Does it come out like some kind of hard plastic type deal? I don't need it to hold screws.
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Mar 18, 2009 14:00:59 GMT -5
This epoxy wood filler, you say it's "tough as nails". Does it come out like some kind of hard plastic type deal? I don't need it to hold screws. Epoxy wood filler is a two part system. You just take equal measures of each component and mix them together with a putty knife. Once it's mixed it looks just like regular wood putty. There's a few of them out there, EZ Poly Wood Rebuilder (used to be Raycrete), PC Woody, Rot Fix...they all do the same thing. I prefer PC Woody, but that's because I can pick it up locally. You've got about 20 minutes to push this stuff in as it starts to get thick after that. The thicker you apply it the longer it takes to cure. Normally, I give it 3-5 days before I sand it, and 7 days if I'm going to route it. Make sure you have a direct wood bond for this stuff. It will stick to paint, but not as well. A Dremel tool with a sanding attachment can be used to score through the paint where you're going to apply it. As far as it being tough, once this stuff cures it isn't coming out on its own. If you do use this stuff keep in mind it is a permanent solution. I repaired a router template with the stuff a couple of years ago and I'm still using the template...and that was on Plexiglas. If you're going to be using a lot of this stuff I would recommend doing it in stages rather then one big glob. Just score or rough it up between layers. It will shrink a little, but multiple layers should take care of that problem. You can also push small diameter doll pins into the wood filler before it dries to stiffen it up. Sort of like rebar in concrete. You can also paint right over this stuff if necessary, but I'd recommend a primer first. It has no fumes or VOC's to worry about. It is time consuming to sand, so if any glops somewhere you don't want it get it up right away before it clots... Hope this helps. Happy Trails Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Mar 18, 2009 15:10:37 GMT -5
ash, Have you considered a term-lock type device? Perhaps a bit more moolah than you had originally budgeted, but none-the-less..... www.tremol-no.comOthers aboond aboot the web, if that one's not quite "it". HTH sumgai
|
|
|
Post by ChrisK on Mar 18, 2009 20:19:57 GMT -5
cyn, Thanks for the link to the Guitar Parts Resource page for the Hipshot vibrato cavity block. StewMac has had these for a while, but you can only find them on their site if you know where it is already. Neither the block nor the Trilogy bridge is listed in the index. Mount a steel plate in the back wall of the vibrato cavity (the side toward the bottom strap lock). An electrical box conduit knockout will do fine. Drill a hole thru the vibrato block between the 3rd and 4th string cavity. Thread the hole for a #10-32 machine screw to rest in the center of the steel plate. Adjust to taste. OR Go by a 1/4" or 3/16" threaded "T" nut (what Fender uses in the heel of a micro-tilt neck). You might be able to get these at Lowes or so. Get a stainless steel or plated one if possible. Mount it to the back of the vibrato cavity (the side toward the bottom strap lock) such that it will contact the vibrato block between the 3rd and 4th string. It has three or four little mounting holes, easy is. Insert a machine or set screw into this extending toward the vibrato block. You may not need this if the threaded nipple extends enough to contact the back side of the vibrato block. Done is.
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Mar 18, 2009 22:21:14 GMT -5
Reading sumgai's and ChrisK's replies they have two major advantages over the epoxy wood filler route...they're easily reversible and are a lot quicker.
I recall somewhere around here was a posting talking about problems with the Trem-No-Lo device. The old drill and tap solution from ChrisK would definitely be the quickest and cheapest option.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by ashcatlt on Mar 18, 2009 22:50:14 GMT -5
So are y'all trying to tell me that I'm overestimating the effect of having a more solid connection between tremblock and body?
I also recall reading something about that Temol-No thing rattling or buzzing or something. I vaguely recall it being a specific model or version of thing, and there was some positive resolution, but...
I've seen the trick with drilling a screw into the tremblock, and I like the idea of the Tee Nut, which avoids the hassle of drilling into a large chunk of metal without the proper machinery. Does require some sort of bent screwdriver or something, though.
Again, I'm not really worried about the stability of my current solution. In fact, I'd recommend it to anybody who just wants to immobilize a strat-style trem bridge. It's cheap, easy, and completely reversible.
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Mar 19, 2009 12:24:50 GMT -5
ash, I was under the impression that you didn't want to permanently immobilize the block..... That said, if you want some string vibration to seep through to those near-studio quality reverb springs, then you're gonna hafta balance between damping most but not all of it with a screw/nut solution (which will probably have a bandpass frequency that peaks right where you don't want it), or a generally flat dampening due to a wood insert of some sort. And if adjustability is desired to some degree, then you needn't use a screw (Philips, etc.) in Chris's method, a small bolt would do the job. Then it's a hex head that can be accessed from the side - a lot less pain, eh? And a wooden block needn't be a straight-sided chunk of wood either. I use a wedge when I'm changing strings. Stick it in between the block and the body until it's just snug, then unwind the machine heads - the wedge is now "wedged" in pretty tight, and stays put. When I put the new strings on, I tune up in small steps until the wedge just barely falls out. That same wedge could be used in your scenario, or so it would seem to me. Moreover, you could experiment with different wood types, maybe one will give you just what you're after, instead of a ker-chunk. Hmmmm, how's yer budget? Ever considered one of these? Titanium Inertia Block, by DeTemple. That'll transfer some string energy! HTH sumgai
|
|
|
Post by ashcatlt on Mar 19, 2009 15:30:45 GMT -5
Yeah, if I had money for a titanium block I'd buy a thinline tele clone. Then I'd still have to find a solution for this issue. That thing costs more than twice what this guitar did, with an amp, and just a little less than twice what it would be if we include the pickup upgrade.
I'm not afraid of a permanent solution. The only problem being that if I end up not happy with the result, I'm stuck. (pun intended)
The wedge idea sounds like it'll take some woodworking. Shims would be a bit easier. I'd probably put these on the other side, away from the neck, so the tension of the strings help hold it in place. I'm remembering now having used a 9V battery in this capacity in the past. That was a suboptimal solution for a number of reasons.
|
|
|
Post by gitpiddler on Mar 19, 2009 15:47:50 GMT -5
I vote for the wood block and keeping the springs, worked wonders on my Floyd-clone equipped Kramer.
|
|
|
Post by ChrisK on Mar 19, 2009 20:31:28 GMT -5
No. Use a hex head cap screw, pull back on the vibrato bar, and use yer fingers to adjust the screw. (After all, the screw is directly in line with the neck axis.)
|
|
|
Post by ashcatlt on Mar 19, 2009 21:41:08 GMT -5
Ah, but how do I install the Tee Nut? 4 little screws, no?
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Mar 20, 2009 2:25:28 GMT -5
ash, Ah, but how do I install the Tee Nut? 4 little screws, no? There are several kinds of T-Nuts, those with holding screws are only one type. Get what seems to work the best for you. Just make sure that the hole you drill is a tight fit for the insert bore, or there may not be a good transfer of string energy. Since you're gonna have to disassemble every thing out of the cavity, then re-assemble it all, don't forget to insert the cap screw first, before you stick the tone block back in. HTH sumgai
|
|
|
Post by mlrpa on Mar 20, 2009 17:32:11 GMT -5
You know, a tiny block of wood, a dremel tool, and some sand paper would have taken less time then this discussion.
|
|
|
Post by ChrisK on Mar 20, 2009 19:50:15 GMT -5
You know, if you'd been paying more regular attention, your suggestion about a tiny block of wood, a dremel tool, and some sand paper would have prevented all of the time taken in this discussion. So there! ;D ;D ;D
|
|