Post by bretoncrabber on Apr 6, 2009 13:50:22 GMT -5
Please could anybody tell me how to wire in a Joe Barden twotone humbucker into the bridge position of my Lonestar Strat. The pickup comes with 6 wires plus braid and a useless wiring diagram. I am matching this pickup to 2 s-deluxe at neck and middle positions. Can i get away with using just the strats switch or will I have to fit a dptp switch in as well Cheers
While I haven't seem a 6-wire HB before, the diagram seems to be selecting a single coil vs dual coil setup. Have you tried wiring it according to the diagram?
You will need a separate DPDT switch, whether it's on a push/pull pot or elsewhere, if you want to use the split-coil feature of this pup
If you don't want the unique features of this humbucker, and just want to use it as a humbucker without splitting it, it looks to me like you would just connect the red and white wires together, connect the red-striped and white-striped wires together, and the black wire then goes to your switch, while the green is grounded to a pot shell.
But let's wait for someone more authoritative to weigh in on this.
To answer your other question, the diagram shows this used with a 3-way switch but a 5-way switch is going to be wired in the same way. So yes, you can use your 5-way.
I can't be sure, but I think that one of those pairs of wires is an actual coil tap (not split) for each coil. If I had to guess, I'd think it was the striped ones which come out of each coil somewhere "half-way" through. They would act as a series connection for the tapped coils, the way the other two wires act for the whole coils.
If this is correct (you could test with a meter), then connecting both red>white and red-striped>white-striped would be somewhat redundant, and result in the "single-coil" sound.
I agree, Ash is on to something there. According to the Joe Barden website, that pickup acts as a standard humbucker, then with a flip of a DPDT switch: "The design is a complete improvement over any kind of series/parallel or split-coil wiring, as it gives you the same tone and output level as the S-Deluxe! Many musicians have told us that the HB Two/Tone™ is like a Strat pickup that turns itself into a humbucker!"
This is a pretty nice feature, and it costs an extra $20.00 to get it. Dropping in a push/pull switch, or a toggle, seems to me to be more then worth the effort.
"Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power." - Benito Mussolini
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis (1935)
"History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is." - Thomas Jefferson
“Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.” - Oscar Wilde
Among some other, rather cute info Mr Barden's FAQ answers the question of the 6-wires quite nicely. I think it's a nifty idea myself. May not be brand new, but I hadn't ever heard of it before.
These pickups can't sound exactly like SC's thanks to that magnetic sensing window thing that ChrisK talks about occassionally. I think it'll be closer than internal parallel, though I don't think you actually need a DPDT to switch modes on this thing. Wouldn't an SPST work just as well?
Anyway, you'll want to keep in mind that if the pickup is hum-cancelling with itself, then it can't be hum-cancelling when combined with an SC: 1 + (1 + (-1)) = 1. That is, postion 2 (Bridge + Mid) will not be hum-cancelling regardless of HB "mode".
You could do the thing where the humbucker is split in position 2. This will only work when the HB is not also in "SC-esque" mode.
As part of your initiation onto the board, your assignment is to measure the resistance of each coil on the pickup.
You will find that each group of three wires are related by having measurable resistance (in the range of 1K to 10K perhaps). Each group is the top, bottom, and tap connection for each coil structure. Each group should be electrically isolated from each other.
Please measure and post the resistance for each coil structure.
One coil will be the Black and White wires, and one of the striped wires (probably the White with stripe wire). There will be three readings taken; Black to white, black to stripe, and white to stripe.
Black, White, Stripe______[?color]
Black - White________
Black - Stripe________
White - Stripe________
The other coil will be the Red and Green wires, and the other striped wire (probably the Red with stripe wire).
Red, Green, Stripe______[?color]
Red - Green________
Red - Stripe________
Green - Stripe________
This will be helpful for all of us, not only with helping you, but in the future as well. I ask this of you because, well, you have one of the pickups.
The tapping of each coil (and, BTW, this is actually tapping and not splitting/shorting) makes sense from the perspective of reducing the net number of turns in the "inductor". A typical humbucker coil has less turns than a typical single coil pickup. Each is a weak single coil pickup. However, when added together (and they are when in typical series), they have more inductance and a lower frequency response band than the typical single coil.
Using only part of each coil in series reduces the composite inductance while preserving the hum cancellation.
It would be good to know the resistances of each coil and its sub-coils. Assuming that a consistent wire gauge was used, inductance "games" could then be played in tuning the frequency response (holy reactance Batman, a composite LCR network for each coil!).
Partially phasomatic Ginsu knives, with sharp tone that will cut thru anything! ;D ;D
Since two disparate wire pairs are being switched, a DPDT is needed. Two SPST switch groups could be used but one is normally open and the other is normally closed. A DPDT seems to be the easiest way to preserve the current switching method.
A single SPDT CAN be used but an interesting effect will occur(from a theoretical perspective - as to whether a tonally interesting effect will occur needs empirical data, but I like it). As I said, partially phasomatic Ginsu knives.......which is my new name for the mixed blended phase tapped series structures in "special position 2" in my post of The BuckerBlender.
Even though complete hum cancellation will not occur in combination with an other single coil pickup, there will be some effect in this direction since a little bit of hum cancellation can go a long way, especially if the pickups are in parallel where they appear as a parallel (even partially) out of phase load to each other.
Post by bretoncrabber on Apr 7, 2009 12:50:27 GMT -5
;DHi thanks to everyone for their help got over my idle streak and put a meter across the coils and think I worked things out. There seems to be a total of four coils internally grouped into two sets and 3 wires the two groups are green,red and red and white stripe + black,white and white and black stripe.I am afraid I already fitted the pick up today so the resistance values will have to be from memory. green to red 4.58 ohm green to red/white 2.7 ohm red to red/white 2.1 ohm The othe circuit was similar readings. I ended fitting the pickup as described on the Barden site using a dpdt micro switch and the hot wire to the wiper of the main switch. I am very pleased with the overall sound of the pickup the sc mode gives me the same sort of output as my other s deluxe bardens but with a lovely strat bridge bite. The humbucker position has more clarity than my pearly gates but possibly too much gain may have to try and reign it in a bit. Thanks again for help Bretoncrabber
I changed the 4.58 value to 4.8K since the coil sum seemed to indicate this.
There is some more info needed.
Could you please do a couple of additional measurements? These will require no disassembly of the guitar.
Once I have this info, I'll formally post the additional info in our "Reference" section since this is a fairly unique pickup.
This info can be obtained by measuring the resistance at the guitar output jack with only the bridge pickup selected, the volume pot at "10" (full-on), and the humbucker mode switch set to "full humbucker coils".
This can be done by plugging a cable into the guitar and measuring at the unplugged end of the cable.
This will verify the total resistance of the pickup.
While you're at it, could you also measure the resistance at the guitar output jack with only the bridge pickup selected, the volume pot at "10" (full-on), and the humbucker mode switch set to "tapped coil emulation"?
This will verify the total resistance of the tapped coil portions.
Also, what is the value of the volume pot if other than the stock 250K?
The Barden Two tone Humbucker.(tentative)
Coil one, Black, White, and White w/Black stripe wires;
Black - White - likely 4.8K Ohms
Black - White w/black Stripe - 2.1K or 2.7 K Ohms
White - White w/black Stripe - 2.7K or 2.1 K Ohms
Coil two, Red, Green, and Red w/Black stripe wires;
The tapped single coil concept has been around for a long time. An implementation of this concept using dual coil humbuckers was actually patented (owned by Pawar guitars) in 2000. (One will have to read the claims to see the basis limitations.) These pickups were custom made for Pawar by Seymour Duncan.
Well, I figured I should join this topic. From what I've read, I'm guessing this is the way the coils are set up.
I figured I'd redraw that switch diagram from Barden's website. No one has mentioned yet about the possibilities of running this in parallel mode (or modes actually). There's the possibility of each tapped single coil being run in parallel or series. Plus the 2.7 kohm coils could be combined in parallel as well as the 2.1 kohm coils. Since, this discussion has centerd on the unique characteristics of this pickup, I have not made any switching diagrams for those parallel possibilities.
ChrisK mentioned that the typical humbucker consists of two rather weak single coils. That's why I always say that if you want to try a coil cut switch, it will sound best when you are using a high output pickup, the DiMarzio X2N, for instance.
No one has mentioned yet about the possibilities of running this in parallel mode (or modes actually). There's the possibility of each tapped single coil being run in parallel or series.
Not directly, but I do do it in the BuckerBlender.
Wolf, your drawing is indeed how I see it as well. I'd hoped for some more "resistive" confirmation just to be sure. Pairing the two 2.7K half-coils makes the most sense since the probable inductance will be just about 1/3 of the series inductance from both full coils.
Helmuth Lemme indicates that the inductance of a Barden humbucker is about 6.5 H, so this would indicate about 2 H, a tad on the bright end of a single coil. But, with the wide sensing window, this may help.
So, how do I know this about the inductance?
Well, the turns ratios are as follows;
Full 4.8K to 2.7K =0.5625 of the full number of turns.
Assuming the same wire gauge (and hence number of turns per Ohm), and inductance (ratio) is based on the number of turns squared;
0.5625^2 = 0.3164 or 31.64% of a full coil.
Full 4.8K to 2.1K =0.4375
0.4375^2 = 0.1914 or 19.14% of a full coil.
For two 2.7K coils, this would be 31.64% of both full coils, or
Post by bretoncrabber on Apr 9, 2009 12:44:30 GMT -5
Hi Sorry for the delay left my meter at work yesterday. The volume pot is a standard 250k as far as i know. the resistence at the jack on twotone is 3.923 kohm on sc switching and 9.61 kohm switched to humbucker. Hope this is of help. On another note I would like to say i appreciate the warm welcome I have recieved on joining this forum Cheers Bretoncrabber
bretoncrabber said "....is 250KΩ so far as I know." But in most cases where a humbucker is mounted, it's de rigeur to use 500K pots, Barden's diagram to the contrary. The exact value of the two pots really should be discerned before further analysis, or so it would seem to me.
What does your meter read when you turn the volume down to about 5? More succinctly, the better way to determine the pot's true value is to find the maximum reading, using the same methods as before, by rotating the knob until you hit the "max" reading. It could be at 5, or it could be around 7 or 8. At that point, you'll be seeing about half of the pot's overall resistance, because the pickup coil's contribution to the equation will be at the minimum possible value.
To illustrate, consider the path read by the meter when the pot is at 10 - the current flow (from the meter's internal battery) is easiest to ground by going through the pickup coil. (The other way is through all of the pot's nominal resistance.) Now, when rotated to about half-value, the meter's positive lead finds each path (through the upper pot-half and the coil, and through the lower pot-half) to be about equal, thus you're seeing about half of the pot's overall value. For this case, we're considering the resistance of the coil to be negligible, it's usually less than 5% of the overall reading.
And the answer is.........
Rule #1: All Lives Are Final. Make sure that the life you have just been issued is appropriate for your needs, before departing the womb.
Rule #2: In case you don't like the life you have, see Rule #1.
Either way, the 3K93 to 3K99 value is indicative of tapped coil values other than the 2K7 presumed for both.
This entire thread has proceeded from the premise that the tap is more or less of half the full coil, and that each resultant portion is roughly equivalent.
But short of taking one of these pups apart, none of us really know what's inside. Could be different windings, it could purposely be asymmetrically tapped. Maybe there's something else going on in there, an RC filter for some "response tuning", maybe?
The stated purpose of this is to exactly replicate the sound of one of their particular single-coils when in tapped mode. That would seem to me to require some degree of asymmetry.
Should we not proceed on the assumption that BC's readings are basically accurate?