eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Apr 12, 2009 18:45:04 GMT -5
I'm going to be doing a couple wiring jobs & been looking at how things are wired. My original gtr wiring compared to a couple new wiring diagrams I'm going to be using has me confused. I'm confused about my pickup leads. I guess it has something to do with a neck & bridge Humbuckers phasing & that they sit mirror to each other. In the new diagrams they just show the north & south start & finishes coming out of both PU's as if they are going to be the same as far as color and everything.When I look at how these PU's are wired from factory I can see that they are made the same,but the neck & bridge are using different leads for hot,ground,coil tapping, no match at all! I've tested them both with ohm meter & they are the same: White & Blue go to adjustable polepeice coil. Black & Red to the other coil. I hope I can get this pic up to help. I'm just not understanding why I have different leads doing different jobs from one PU compared to the other PU. I have a feeling I'm going to have trouble when I go to try and follow these new diagrams if I don't figure this out. Hope this isn't too confusing. I'm sure it's a simple thing to understand if I can just get thinking about it right. [/img]
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Post by newey on Apr 12, 2009 19:26:36 GMT -5
eadgber- To post images: Image PostingYour post has me confused, perhaps because I can't "see" the problem. Are you looking at a diagram for a 2-wire Humbucker and trying to figure it out using a 4-wire HB?
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Post by ChrisK on Apr 12, 2009 19:44:04 GMT -5
Well, as I've gotten older I've found that I can't see nearly as far anymore.
Could you help out by telling us what brand and model these pickups are?
Do you have URL's to the drawings?
What does this mean? They have the same resistance? That you were able to determine the coils using a voltmeter?
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Apr 12, 2009 19:53:36 GMT -5
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Apr 12, 2009 20:00:14 GMT -5
ChrisK I just tested to see & make sure which leads are from which coil of the humbuckers.
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Post by ChrisK on Apr 12, 2009 20:11:27 GMT -5
So you used a voltmeter and tapped the pole pieces with a screwdriver?
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Apr 12, 2009 22:07:01 GMT -5
Chris, yes that's just what I did. Lets see if this works.
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Apr 12, 2009 22:27:42 GMT -5
Ok that's stock wiring & some info on the PU's. That bottom pic is just from diagrams. That's how they all start. It's right at this point I'm already lost. I don't get why on the stock wiring it looks to me like Red is the Neck's Hot, Black is the Bridge's Hot and they use White&Black to coil-tap on the neck.Then use Blue&Red to coil-tap the bridge. I'm sure it all makes sence, just not to me yet ;D I mean the gtr is fine and everything works as it should. I just need to know for sure how to translate all my leads into the new wiring diagram I want to use. Thanks
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Post by wolf on Apr 13, 2009 18:21:26 GMT -5
Edited 11:00 pm 04/13/2009Based on Chris K's posting, I redrew the diagram: My own guess is that the bridge is wired in what I call an "inside-out" wiring. This is done to get a different coil active when the coil cut switch is thrown. In this way, when both coil cut switches are on, the result is a humbucking pickup. Anyway, it seems that the colors on your diagram don't quite match up with mine so maybe someone else should step in here. Incidentally, diagrams always look better when saved in a gif format as opposed to jpg. (Jpg looks sloppy doesn't it?) I tried to save that as a gif but I guess since I started with a jpg graphic, it wantedf to stay that way. (Maybe I should have drawn the whole thing myself).
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Post by ChrisK on Apr 13, 2009 19:55:27 GMT -5
This makes sense with eadgber's posted diagram. When the coils are shorted, the slug coil on the bridge and the screw coil on the neck are the active coils. This also indicates that both pickups have the same magnetic polarity and electrical phase.
Wolf, in your post, the pickups are electrically out of phase with each other. This would work if the magnet in one was reversed as well. Perhaps some info is missing as to the overall scheme.
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Post by wolf on Apr 13, 2009 22:15:43 GMT -5
ChrisKYes you're posting made me rethink the diagram and I redrew it. I think all that " North Start South finish" foolishness got a little confusing. Here at Guitar Nuts II, nobody uses those terms. We are just concerned about getting the pickup wire colors correct. Oh I'm sure everyone here knows about windings and polarity but it isn't necessary to bring up all that extra stuff.
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Apr 14, 2009 5:58:41 GMT -5
My foolishness can only be out done by my ignorance. I'm not so much worried about that N S start finish stuff. I'm just trying to figure out how to use these Pickups with this new wiring diagram. Wolf, are those Super 58s you have? I can not find info on color codes for them at all. Anyway by looking at the org. wiring and the new wiring diagram this is my best guess at how I'm going to use the leads. If that's not right I'll take my next best guess and so on....
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Post by wolf on Apr 14, 2009 13:10:26 GMT -5
Okay, here is my newly-redrawn diagram: I'm pretty sure this will work. When you asked if these are Super 58's, I don't think it would matter because companies almost always keep the same pickup wire colors. That diagram you posted is a little more complicated than what I posted. (It's a lot more complicated in fact). For all the extra tones you'd get, I'd say it is worth the extra effort. However, since you are new to guitar wiring, I'd suggest sticking to the 2 coil cut switch circuit. It also looks as if the pickup wire colors are wrong on your new diagram.
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Post by sumgai on Apr 14, 2009 13:47:48 GMT -5
wolf, Yes, your diagram will work, but consider that the "live" coils will be those with the slugs, not the screws. (Of course, I'm relying on the diagrams we've seen so far, but who knows if they're 100% correct in that regard.) Depending on the "real world" layout, that might not be the ideal tonal combination. Howzaboot you offer an alternate diagram (so's it looks the same, for continuity that's pleasing to the eye ) that ties the junction to the hot lead, which in turn would have the screwed coil be the one that sounds out? That way, eadgber can choose the one that is the most pleasing to his ear. sumgai
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Post by ChrisK on Apr 14, 2009 16:09:33 GMT -5
wolf, Your pickup wires are still reversed (+ and -). The combination of those coils from each pickup will not only be hum canceling, but also signal canceling since both coils are electrically out of phase with each other as the magnetic polarity for each selected coil is the same. For this to work, one pickup's magnet will also have to be flipped. Most pickups from a given maker have the slug coil a constant magnetic polarity and the screw coil a constant magnetic polarity. To use the slug coil from both such common structures, a magnet will have to be flipped as well as the electrical phasing. What eadgber needs to do is to ascertain which coils attract inter-pickup and hence are of opposite magnetic polarity, and then wire accordingly (or do something aboot them flippin' magnets). eadgber, Your latest drawing has the wire colors GeFooey. Both the North Start and North Finish wires must come from the same coil. We don't care aboot North Start and North Finish designations since the wires can be swapped (electrical phase), but we do care about the wires actually going to each coil.
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Post by wolf on Apr 14, 2009 17:24:37 GMT -5
Here is a diagram I posted on 12/30/2005: (Pickup wires based on DiMarzio color codes).Yes, and back then a few Guitar Nuts disagreed with me. Anyway, substituting the Ibanez colors for the DiMarzio colors results in the coil cut diagram posted previously: (heck there's only one difference - Ibanez uses a blue wire where DiMarzio uses a green)It seems to me in the bottom diagram that the slug coil of the neck pickup and the screw coil of the bridge pickup remain active when both coil cut switches are on. Anyway, I didn't mean to start a brouhaha over this, but I think I'm right. If I'm wrong I will certainly admit it.
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Post by ChrisK on Apr 14, 2009 19:26:39 GMT -5
Ah (as in ha!), I see what you're doing. I presumed that you were drawing the pickups as a correction to eadgber's drawing, where they would drop into place thereon, where in actuality you drew the bottom pickup up-side-down from a gravitational perspective. (You did know that electrons are inherently lazy and hate to go uphill?) (Furthermore, you (all) do know that electrons flow out of the negative terminal?) (And even further furthermore, this is AC.) The (+) White is the bottom pickup series structure output and the (-) Black is grounded. When the coil short switches are on, the top pickup is North (slug) coil only and the bottom pickup is South (screw) coil only. So at best, you're only going to get a brouha from me. I don't think that you're incorrect in any way, you just have an Aussie perspective exactly half of the time. (Now the brouhaha might begin.....)
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Post by wolf on Apr 14, 2009 22:20:18 GMT -5
ChrisKI don't know if the "inside-out" wiring causes electrons to flow backwards or whether the "start" is now actally "finish" or if "North" is now "South", but I do know when pickups are wired in this manner, in coil cut mode, the active pickups are what I stated and they will be humbucking. No, I was not taking offense, it's just that it has been a long time since I wired a guitar in this way and I was somewhat unsure of the wiring myself. Hmm maybe I could put this as an additional page on my website. Yes, as Yogi Berra said, "90 per cent of the time you can't believe half those things." Huh? (Gee, I just created a brouha-huh.)
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Post by sumgai on Apr 15, 2009 0:41:16 GMT -5
Wait, wait.......
Not being a humbucker kind of guy, I'm kinda cornfused here......
Don't most 2Hb geetars have their pickups mounted so that the screw coils are as far apart as possible? And if that's true, then why does every drawing in this thread show the screw coils aligned the same way (both below the slug coils)?
Or are we now ushering in the era of the Gary Moore wannabe?
sumgai
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Apr 15, 2009 2:51:40 GMT -5
I am absolutley a Gary Moore wanta be!! (but no not wanting my neck upside down). What I'm feeling like here is Forrest Gump talking to Tesla,Edison,Seth Lover & maybe Einstein Thanks for all this help. It's very clear that I won't get this done without all your help. I've read your post (and re-read). Some of this is sinking in slowly. Ok so after your latest post here is how i'm seeing it: I hope I'm atleast getting close, I'm pretty tired so don't beat me too hard if not. When/if I get this baby wired and all is cool, This could be a really usefull diagram for some Ibanez owners. Just the color code info on the Super 58's I'm sure would be great for alot of people. I'm worried about posting this copyright pic so maybe I'd redraw something after all is good. It would have all credits drew to Guitarnuts 2 & GtrEle.
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Apr 15, 2009 3:34:58 GMT -5
Oh no sumgai! You got me up late drinking n listening to "The Loner" & "I'm Always Goin Love You"
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Post by ChrisK on Apr 15, 2009 10:42:34 GMT -5
Yep. And if'n wolf's were drawn that way, both would be up-side-down from a gravitational perspective (although phase is relative to the other pickup and hence they would be both up-side-down and in phase as well as right-side-up and in phase). ;D ;D I wouldn't worry aboot it. Credit is already given to both. If Guitar Electronics takes umbrage at a free billboard advertising their site and giving them credit........ "If you come to a fork in the road, take it." Yogi Berra
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Apr 17, 2009 4:01:36 GMT -5
So dose that last diagram look like it'll work for me? I think I got it but I know there's a good chance I'm missing something.
Good to know I should be able to use DiMarzio color codes (replacing green with blue).
I actually have two sets of these Super 58s. The other set is going in an Epi Les Paul. I'll have questions about that later on probably. I'll be coil tapping it too & thinking about maybe out o phase. Yes I want a bi-polar LP!
BTW, hope I'm not annoying with these beginner questions or a thick head. I'm reading some on the Reference Articles. I'm determined to learn more about this type stuff. Only real worry is that it might cause me to buy more gtrs that I know could be made better!
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Post by wolf on Apr 17, 2009 13:12:25 GMT -5
eadgbearNow that I think of it, I don't know if Chris K's circuit will work. I noticed this as I was redrawing the entire circuit. Okay here's a diagram of the neck series/parallel switch, the bridge S/P switch and the S/P switch for both pickups. (that switch is in the gray box). I could be wrong but I don't think a DPDT series parallel switch can connect to the typical SPDT "center on" pickup switch and have it work properly. I think the only solution (the 2 switches on the far right) is to use 2 SPDT switches which would act as both a series parallel switch and a pickup selection switch. This is referred to as "binary tree" switching on this board and I think it is the only solution for this type of wiring. I have the bridge pickup wired in what I call "inside-out" wiring, but I don't think this is what is causing the problem. Even if the bridge pickup was connected with the conventional wiring, I don't think the combination of a DPDT S/P switch and a SPDT "center on" switch would work.
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Post by ChrisK on Apr 17, 2009 22:22:50 GMT -5
I don't understand what would make this appear to not work. Each pickup and its respective series/single/parallel DP3T Center-ON switch (aka ON-ON-ON switch) is a two-terminal sub-module. These are switched from having both signal return points grounded and both signal outputs going to the respective input terminals on the SP3T Center-ON pickup selector switch, to the neck pickup being "stacked" onto the bridge pickup and both input terminals of the SP3T Center-ON pickup selector switch going to the neck output. This is a series override switch; it goes from a traditional one/both/other in parallel to a series only structure regardless of the SP3T Center-ON pickup selector switch position (since inter-pickup series by its very definition requires at least two pickups to be in the structure). It does not require the adjustment of the SP3T Center-ON switch and is hence a true series override function. Both JohnH and I posted identical diagrams (identigrams?) in the parallel thread'iverse started by eadgber's identical twin half-brother eadgber, and known as Rewire Ideas & HELP. Maybe I don't understand some design requirement here. Now, the indication by Guitar Electronics that the intra-pickup switching progression is series/parallel/single is obviously incorrect. Since a DP3T Center-ON switch (aka ON-ON-ON switch) can ONLY switch one thing per toggle progression, the progression is, of course, series/single/parallel. I had mentioned this linear logic lapse in the parallel thread'iverse (which would seem to reinforce the practice of not practicing this practice). But, as Barney sez, "we're here because we're here because we're here because we're here........."
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Post by wolf on Apr 18, 2009 16:46:28 GMT -5
ChrisKYes you and JohnH are correct. I really didn't analyze the "series override modification" unitl after I made my previous posting. Because you posted that detailed reply, I studied the circuit much more closely, reviewed the "identi-grams", rotated by 180° and redrew the series/parallel switch and arrived at this "sub-module": I think it's fantastic that 2 GuitarNuts found a mistake and an improvement for an online diagram on a site called Guitar Electronics. Anyway, I think I'll redraw the entire diagram, and post it right here.
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Post by wolf on Apr 18, 2009 23:29:46 GMT -5
Okay, here is my completely redrawn diagram for this circuit: If there are any errors, please let me know.
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Post by JohnH on Apr 19, 2009 0:07:23 GMT -5
ChrisKYes you and JohnH are correct. Phew! well that's a relief. Otherwise there would have been several guitars built with that S/P switch in designs that I drew, that have worked fine for no apparent reason! cheers John
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Post by ChrisK on Apr 19, 2009 10:49:39 GMT -5
Yeah, I really hate when that happens.....
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Apr 20, 2009 0:06:05 GMT -5
Thanks so much everyone. I will use that last diagram then. I still need to order the two DPDT on/on/on switches. I beleive I'll get'em from StewMac. They are right up the road from me & I'd assume they are what I need. (I read on here about there being different kinds of on/on/on) I will let ya know how is goes or when I hit a wall. Might be a few weeks. Holding on to my money right now sence it's been a slow work month so far. I think my shopping cart at StewMac was up ta $140 last I looked.
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