kramer1309
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Post by kramer1309 on Jun 2, 2009 15:19:24 GMT -5
Hello, i redid the electronics of my guitar yesterday and found that it is now buzzing/humming quite loudly.. i checked my grounds by connecting a wire to the output line and touching the other end to all the hardware - pots body, switch body, pickup cavity shielding, bridge, strings, string ferrules and it always cut the signal so i'm assuming that all that is grounded correctly. The noise/hum decreases slightly but is still present when i touch the strings/bridge. I know that this is normal, but the guitar did not buzz this way earlier. Stock, it was dead quiet. When the tone circuit is active (only two positions), turning down the tone to 0 removes most of the noise/hum. I'd really appreciate if you guys could help me with this..
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Post by D2o on Jun 2, 2009 15:41:39 GMT -5
Hi kramer, Eh? What do you mean it always cut the signal? Are you certain you haven't just switched the wires on the output jack? D2o
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kramer1309
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Post by kramer1309 on Jun 2, 2009 15:47:34 GMT -5
i mean that if i connect something in the hot line towards the output (input jack) to ground, i am effectively shorting the jack's tip and ring and thus output should become zero.
I am certain that i have not swapped wires at the output jack...
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Post by D2o on Jun 2, 2009 17:19:38 GMT -5
Hi kramer, How have you wired it (i.e. is it safe to say we are talking about your Kramer Striker? Here is an old schematic you drew up - how does your new wiring compare?)
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kramer1309
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Post by kramer1309 on Jun 2, 2009 17:39:06 GMT -5
no no, its a new guitar.. i made the wiring myself.. its a 5 way switch (ibanez type H-H type like a cor-tek switch, not a standard fender 5 way) and one passive humbucker in the neck and an active in the bridge. It works as: 1-off 2-passive humbucking 3-passive coil1 4-passive coil2 5-active
basically, there is a master volume (500k) from output of switch to output jack and one of the coils is wired to the tone pot (500k), so it only works in position 2 and 4. everything is star grounded either to vol pot or tone pot (which is grounded to vol pot) The wiring works as expected but hums, least loud with the active (other than 1-off)
i'll put up a diagram later in the day..
see, the thing is i don't know where my hum is or the noise is being introduced, is there anyway to find out for certain what is causing the problem? my soldering isn't the best but could it be a cause for loud humming/buzzing/noise? hope to hear from you soon
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kramer1309
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Post by kramer1309 on Jun 3, 2009 3:11:14 GMT -5
Here, my switch works like this: my wiring used:
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Post by D2o on Jun 3, 2009 10:34:46 GMT -5
Hi kramer,
Thanks for the diagram.
Why do you have a wire running to what looks like the side of the switch ... is there a pole there or is this a ground wire?
And should there not be a wire from the tone pot terminal to the volume pot terminal, in one form or another?
Also, I think your "9V" wire should run to "R" and the ground should run to "S".
I hope one of these helps to alleviate the symptoms.
Cheers,
D2o
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Post by sumgai on Jun 3, 2009 11:55:43 GMT -5
kramer (and D2o), Don't be changing the power wiring like D2o suggests, that'll really short things out. As it is now, the battery is on all the time, making your practice sessions a tad short-lived..... Connect the black battery wire to the Ring terminal instead of the Sleeve, and all will be well in battery-life land. The rest of this looks good, but you do know, don't you, that these particular 5-way switches are prone to going TU right in the middle of when you most need them. They are pretty unreliable, and should be replaced with a real switch at the earliest opportunity. Not to mention that they feel kinda cheesy when you're slapping the knob to a new position, right in the middle of your impression of Eddie's Eruption/You Really Got Me. Good luck! sumgai
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Post by D2o on Jun 3, 2009 12:09:44 GMT -5
..... Also, I think your "9V" wire should run to "R" and the ground should run to "S". ..... kramer (and D2o), Don't be changing the power wiring like D2o suggests, that'll really short things out. As it is now, the battery is on all the time, making your practice sessions a tad short-lived..... Connect the black battery wire to the Ring terminal instead of the Sleeve, and all will be well in battery-life land. ..... We agree (I think ) about the "9V" part ... that it should be going to "R" - the battery ground ring. But should the ground wire not be going to the sleeve so that he has both signal and signal return at the jack? D2o
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kramer1309
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Post by kramer1309 on Jun 3, 2009 12:43:00 GMT -5
... Why do you have a wire running to what looks like the side of the switch ... is there a pole there or is this a ground wire?... Yeah, sorry i didn't mention clearly, that is the body ground of the switch. ...And should there not be a wire from the tone pot terminal to the volume pot terminal, in one form or another?... See, as one pickup is active, i can't use the 500k pot and as i didn't want to drill more holes combined with the metal active humbucker (tone at 11 ) i thought that i would connect the tone to the passive humbucker directly (3rd lug from left on switch). This forces me to sacrifice the tone knob during one of the coil splits but i don't mind... thus, the tone knob is only active when the passive is in humbucking mode or one of the coil splits (not both) nice catch on that swap of 'R' and 'S'.. i made a mistake during the diagram, not wiring (used the prewired jack from EMG) so, otherwise the diagram seems fine.. gud... about the switch.. as of now, it was the only one i had (preinstalled) and also, i was unable to get the tones which i wanted from a normal fender type 5way plus i'm not much of a switch abuser, so i hope it lasts fairly.. now, the frustration i'm having is there is a fair amount of buzz/noise/hum from the guitar i checked my grounds by connecting a wire to the output line and touching the other end to all the hardware - pots body, switch body, pickup cavity shielding, bridge, strings, string ferrules and it always cut the signal so i'm assuming that all that is grounded correctly. The noise/hum decreases slightly but is still present when i touch the strings/bridge. I know that this is normal, but the guitar did not buzz this way earlier. Stock, it was dead quiet. When the tone circuit is active (only two positions), turning down the tone to 0 removes most of the noise/hum. any way i can know why this hum is there, what do i check and how do i check (do have a multimeter handy but do not know how to use it) thanks
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Post by ashcatlt on Jun 3, 2009 12:51:56 GMT -5
D2o, I think you're both saying the same thing about the 9V thing. I think sumgai misunderstood what D2o was saying on that. I think you're both wrong, though.
Unless the jack is connected to the pot shells or switch frame by some means not depicted in the schematic (like shielding foil or a metal control plate) it should work perfectly happy either way, and shouldn't do any battery killing unless there's a plug inserted. Once the plug is inserted, the ring and sleeve are - electronically speaking - the same thing.
There is this, though:
To which the answer is yes.
I don't see anything in the schematic that could cause extra noise like you've described. The "test" you described is kind of half-assed though. A meter would give us a much better idea of what is going on there.
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Post by D2o on Jun 3, 2009 13:02:19 GMT -5
Ah, I see what you're doing with the active stuff now. I was wondering how you were going to get away with a 500K pot. Is what I am perceiving as sort of a "lack of a wire from a Tpot terminal to a Vpot terminal" related to the above? Is your tone pot functioning properly? Ash, I think you are possibly correct about sumgai misunderstanding what I meant ... or I am just wrong. Nevertheless, every active schematic I've looked at has the 9V going to the battery ground ring "R" and the hot and ground going to the tip and sleeve as usual. Seeing as he's having a hum issue, I think it's worth checking out. I still think that ground wire to the switch is not a good idea ... I can't recall why I think that, but we had a somewhat related discussion here, in which I believe the decision to run a ground wire to the switch was eventually abandoned. Do you remember that one, Ash? - I think you had some input there also.
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kramer1309
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Post by kramer1309 on Jun 3, 2009 13:45:46 GMT -5
There is this, though: To which the answer is yes. I don't see anything in the schematic that could cause extra noise like you've described. The "test" you described is kind of half-assed though. A meter would give us a much better idea of what is going on there. alright.. tell me what/how to do with the meter and i'll do it! @d2o: yeah, the tone pot works as expected when it is supposed to be on and does nothing when its supposed to be out of the circuit The i used the switch ground because it was already there in the stock wiring (which was perfectly quiet) and umm.. one thing to note: When the tone circuit is active (only two positions), turning down the tone to 0 removes most of the noise/hum completely. so does going to position 1 (the off position) THANKS
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Post by D2o on Jun 3, 2009 14:10:16 GMT -5
Thanks, kramer,
Just to clarify:
When you say active circuit, you just mean the positions when the passive pickup is "on" (positions 3,4, and 5) and the tone comes into play, correct? If you just mean that the hum from the passive positions decreases as the tone is turned down, that is to be expected.
You don't mean the tone works in the positions where the "active" pickup is selected (position 5), do you?
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Post by D2o on Jun 3, 2009 14:17:50 GMT -5
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kramer1309
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Post by kramer1309 on Jun 3, 2009 14:18:49 GMT -5
It works as: 1-off 2-passive humbucking 3-passive coil1 4-passive coil2 5-active
the tone is connected to the output line only in position 2 and 4, otherwise it affects nothing. In these positions, turning the tone to 0 removes all the hum/noise/buzz.
sorry about the confusing use of the word active...
umm.. how would i use that test, since i am using the pickups in a rather different manner than a standard strat, should i just do the passive humbucking position and the active humbucking position?
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Post by D2o on Jun 3, 2009 14:53:48 GMT -5
how would i use that test, since i am using the pickups in a rather different manner than a standard strat, should i just do the passive humbucking position and the active humbucking position? I'm not sure ... better wait to hear from someone who knows, so as to avoid possible damage to your meter. I suspect it's the same procedure with the active pickup, but I think you will get a slightly lower reading than a typical passive pickup in the full humbucker position.
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kramer1309
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Post by kramer1309 on Jun 3, 2009 14:55:29 GMT -5
i'm waitng.. umm.. who do you mean by 'someone who does know'?
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Post by D2o on Jun 3, 2009 15:06:05 GMT -5
i'm waitng.. umm.. who do you mean by 'someone who does know'? Well, don't sit by your computer and wait! ;D I mean that I have never laid hands on an active pickup, much less taken any measurements ... I am only guessing at about 10K as the expected reading on the meter. The risk is that if my guess is low, you risk damaging your meter (... now if it was me, I'd damn the torpedos and just take the measurements - but that's just me) Don't worry, I am sure someone else in here has experience in taking measurements of an active pickup and can give you some pointers on it.
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kramer1309
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Post by kramer1309 on Jun 3, 2009 15:12:13 GMT -5
well, it is about 2am here in india so i guess i'll sign off and provide readings in a few hours (in the morning)
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Post by D2o on Jun 3, 2009 15:19:51 GMT -5
Man, it's a good thing I told you not to sit by the computer and wait! Even a guitarnut needs a good night's sleep. ;D
Good night ... good morning ... whatever
Cheers, D2o
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Post by ashcatlt on Jun 3, 2009 23:00:34 GMT -5
I don't think you'll hurt your meter running the test as described. Can't imagine there'd be a DC voltage across the hot output of that pickup. You could always double check by setting it to one of its lower voltage ranges and testing from ground to the that hot wire from the pickup. You should read 0V.
Otherwise, I'd be interested to see resistance readings for all 5 positions. I was tallking more about testing the resistance between the various "ground" points and the lug on the jack where they ultimately connect. If you haven't changed it, that would be from the ring of the jack to things like pot shells, the switch frame, the bridge. Use the lowest resistance range your meter has. Should read as close as possible to 0 ohms.
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Post by D2o on Jun 4, 2009 13:15:44 GMT -5
Good, Ash - seeing as he has signal / output I was not sure what was to be gained from the brainscan.
What you propose makes more sense.
Thanks for the reassurance on the active pup measurements, by the way. I hadn't seen anything that suggested it should be a problem either, but I didn't know.
kramer - any chance you can post some good pics (close up, clear and in focus) of your wiring / soldering?
D2o
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kramer1309
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Post by kramer1309 on Jun 4, 2009 14:09:52 GMT -5
Hey guys.. i readjusted the battery's position (it is just wrapped in foam and the cavity is quite tight) and the hum all but went away! So, i'm guessing it was loose wiring? any idea on how to correct that (like how to find the loose connection, i tried putting pressure on random solder joints, some moved so i redid those, but the hum didn't come back) and the resistance readings: pos1 (off): 4.6 Ohm pos2 (neck humbkr): 8.86k Ohm pos3 (neck split1): 4.48k Ohm pos4 (neck split2): 4.47k Ohm pos5 (active): 52.7k Ohm (!?) and i did a resistance check to and from the grounds.. they were all between 1-4 ohm (a little fluctuation) except for the shielding of the electronics cavity (i guess it came loose somewhere, plan to shield it with copper foil later instead of the present paint there) about pics, i'll get them up by tomorrow (but believe me, it won't be pretty, the soldering that is )
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Post by D2o on Jun 4, 2009 14:22:08 GMT -5
That's great kramer! If it's working now and any loose connections have been resoldered, I'm kinda thinking don't mess with it anymore. We'll see when you post the pics though. 52.7k, eh? Well, that's just a little off from my previous uneducated guess, isn't it? D2o
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kramer1309
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Post by kramer1309 on Jun 6, 2009 15:39:24 GMT -5
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Post by D2o on Jun 7, 2009 9:22:15 GMT -5
Kramer,
+1 for good pics and lots of 'em.
I haven't had a chance to look them over in any detail yet, but I'll get to it in the next few days I hope (I trust hope you are not in a rush?).
FWIW, the first thing I noticed was some "globbiness" in some the solder connections.
What is the wattage of the soldering iron you use?
D2o
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kramer1309
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Post by kramer1309 on Jun 7, 2009 9:44:34 GMT -5
hey
thanks for looking at them.. yea my soldering skills aren't good, they are pretty globbule-ish (?). I'm assuming that it is an indication of cold joints?
oh, and about the no rush thing, i'm going on vacation tomorrow for 2weeks so will be able to read and respond after that.
Thanks a million D2o, you really helped me..
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Post by D2o on Jun 8, 2009 13:14:28 GMT -5
Kramer, It looks fine, wiring-wise, as far as any of us can tell. I cannot tell what is going on under the taped parts of wires - have you twisted and taped those, or have you soldered and taped those (which you should)? You have signal - so you should be proud of that ; and you have hum - whihc you have already alleviated to some extent. There could perhaps still be a loose connection on the signal return (ground) side. The main thing is to ensure that the wiring has been soldered properly. Don't use a soldering iron that is either too weak or too powerful. I would suggest a soldering iron of about 30 watts and I like to use the thinnest electronic rosin core solder that I can find. Make sure that you allow your iron to properly heat up for at least 5 minutes, that you always keep the tip of your iron clean, and that you tin it (melt a thin layer of solder on the tip). When I am soldering to something like the back of a pot, I lay the side of the tip of the iron on the surface to be soldered to for a good 30 seconds before placing the wires that are to be soldered to it on the surface and then laying the side of the tip of the iron on the wires that are on the surface for another good 30 seconds or so. Then I press the point of the tip of the iron on the wires, and make sure I've got ample solder to make a huge honkin' glob of solder on a fairly hot surface, so that I have the best chance of getting a good and durable solder connection. I have never damaged a pot doing this - although that could happen with a much more powerful soldering iron, so best stick with about 30 - 40 watts. I mention this in general, but also because you have a wire that is soldered to the switch - which is smoother than the back of a pot and, therefore, even more of a challenge to get a good solder connection. You may still have some poor solder joints in there, even though you have gone over them. It's hard to say ... But you have signal, so if there are any cold solder joints they are on the signal return (ground) side - perhaps the solder connection to the switch or the back of the volume pot? (or possibly the tone pot, although that looks okay) Does the hum diminish when you press down on any of those (or any other) points? You have not done a bad job. I guess you should kind of be prepared with your soldering iron and just take your time to check everything (under the tape, too) and resolder as need be, because there is nothing in your wiring schematic or photos that suggests that there is a wiring issue, whereas you have already discovered that something as simple as adjusting the battery and resoldering a few loose connections can cause a dramatic improvement. I hope that helps. D2o
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