Shielding guitar without soldering?

[VOLT]

hi
ive got a strat and i am wondering whether it is possible to shield it without soldering anything?.. i dont know how to solder..... ive used aluminum foil to cover the cavities and the pickguard... so is there any way to shield it without doing any soldering? (eg. using a wire to connect the foil to the claw using elec tape or something?)

[newey]

volt-

Hello and Welcome!

You could certainly use a screw into the side of the cavity, through the aluminum foil, and attach a wire with a crimp-on spade lug. The other end of the wire would be stripped back, twisted around one of the ground wires on the back of your volume pot, and taped in place.

Not very elegant, but it should work so long as you get good contact at both ends.

But don't be intimidated by soldering. It just takes some practice. I started soldering when I was a poor teenager, and couldn't afford to go running out to buy a new guitar cable every time a plug went bad.

My cords would get progressively shorter with each repair. But I learned how to solder.

[VOLT]

Thanks for the quick reply!... questions...

a) does it have to be twisted around the ground wire to the volume pot, or can it be anywhere as long as its connected with the ground? eg. like the claw or bridge...

b) im guessing there might be better results if it is soldered.... if so, how much better will it be than just twisting and taping(will there be a considerable difference in the amount of hum?)

[newey]

As long as you get a good connection, there won't be any difference in the amount of hum. Soldering is just a means of ensuring a good connection, as well as one that lasts a while. A taped connection runs the risk that it will work loose over time, thus forcing you to take the guitar apart again in the future.

Soldering is therefore highly recommended. You asked whether it could be done without soldering, and it can. But you really should solder it.

You can ground it to the trem claw or the bridge, provided those are in turn adequately grounded. Best practice would be to get it tied into the wiring as close to the output jack ground as possible, which usually means to the back of one of the pots.

All of this assumes that you are not pursuing the star-grounding plans on the original Guitar Nuts site. I assume you are not doing that, given your desire to avoid soldering.

[ChrisK]

Here's a link for StewMac copper tape shielding where the self-adhesive backing is also conductive, so overlapped seams are electrically continuous.

I've not used it so I can't speak to its efficacy.

[newey]

I have, and do, use the conductive foil from Stew-Mac, and it works well. You can also solder to it, unlike aluminum foil.

[D2o]

I have used aluminum duct tape on many occasions, but I believe copper to be superior from the standpoint of shielding efficacy (is that a word?) as well as it's ability to be soldered.

Nevertheless, I have still been happy with the aluminum from the standpoint of it's ease of availability (and price, for that matter) as well as the actual shielding results.

You will not likely find aluminum duct tape with conductive adhesive, so you have to fold the edge of each overlapping piece under itself so that you have metal to metal contact - not metal to adhesive contact.

As an aside, I was doing an experiment one day where I was trying to compare "strips of aluminum tape in a guitar" to actual "aluminum shielding" i.e. with electric and magnetic continuity, and do you wanna know something funny?

Even thought I purposely tried to avoid continuity by just overlapping aluminum strips next to each other so that it was adhesive in contact with metal, there was still continuity.

So, apparently, some adhesive is conductive - though not advertised as such ... go figure.

D2o

[VOLT]

i used elmer's rubber cement and yes i do think it has continuity...

and Thanks for all the replies!

now to work!!!!

[cynical1]

Jun 22, 2009 13:02:49 GMT -5 ChrisK said:

Here's a link for StewMac copper tape shielding where the self-adhesive backing is also conductive, so overlapped seams are electrically continuous.

I've not used it so I can't speak to its efficacy.

3M makes a version if this, too. Spend the money and use a product similar to these. You'll thank yourself later. Do it right the first time and you don't have to do it again...

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[newey]

3M makes a version if this, too.

I'm pretty sure the stuff Stew-mac sells is 3M, seems to me I remember their logo on the overwrap.

This stuff is much easier to work with than aluminum foil, and not having to fold and tape the seams is nice. I bought the widest width they offered since it's easy to cut down into smaller strips. One roll is probably enough for 2-3 guitars.

I can't comment on any difference noise-wise, since the one guitar I've used this on is still in the building stage.

[VOLT]

so ive done it and and im not really sure what difference its supposed to make... i cant make out any difference. (i just did the basic shielding ie. foil +wire to volume pot... i actually taped the wire around the pickups' ground wires which was convenient) So can anyone tell me what difference it is supposed to make? perhaps a test of some sort?...

[newey]

Volt-

If properly done, you should see some reduction in noise. Shielding is not a cure-all, however.

Is this a regular Strat with 3 single coils? Was it particularly noisy to begin with?

Without knowing exactly what you did or seeing some photos of your shielding job, it will be impossible for anyone to diagnose your lack of results over the net.

i used elmer's rubber cement and yes i do think it has continuity...

I'm dubious. Did you check continuity across all the shielding?

[ChrisK]

Continuity of course has meant electrical continuity.

Continuity of glue is meaningless unless it conducts electricity. Each piece needs to be in electrical contact with each other, as well as with the shield/ground connection to the output jack. This should be verified with a digital multimeter.

This is why the StewMac tape was recommended as there is electrical continuity thru the electrically conductive glue.

Rubber cement is made of rubber, which is an insulator.

This may be the issue unless a direct connection is missing.

[VOLT]

its a squier strat with 3 single coils and i dont think it was particularly noisy...by "not particularly noisy" you mean that it gets noisy only when distortion is used and its in position 1, 3, and 5 right?

and the way i checked for continuity(im not some expert ;D)... i took a i.5 v battery and kept it on the foil, then using an analog multimeter on the batt. testing thing, i put the (multimeter's) conducting pointers(whatever theyre called ) in different places and checked for a reading..... this basically does the same thing right?

[D2o]

Hi Volt,

Jun 30, 2009 23:13:45 GMT -5 VOLT said:

its a squier strat with 3 single coils and i dont think it was particularly noisy...by "not particularly noisy" you mean that it gets noisy only when distortion is used and its in position 1, 3, and 5 right?

Stock (unshielded) strats should have more hum in positions 1, 3 & 5 - and you should be checking this while on a clean setting, so you can hear the actual unadulterated guitar sound, IMHO.

This hum will still exist, and still be most noticeable in those same postions, even after shielding. It's just that it should be less hum.

By all means play with distortion to your heart's content after all the work is done ... and, yes, the hum will very likely be greater when using distortion.

and the way i checked for continuity(im not some expert ;D)... i took a i.5 v battery and kept it on the foil, then using an analog multimeter on the batt. testing thing, i put the (multimeter's) conducting pointers(whatever theyre called ) in different places and checked for a reading..... this basically does the same thing right?

No, just set the probes on two seperate pieces of shield and the needle should move and you should get a reading of zero (or close to it) if there is continuity.

D2o

[VOLT]

hmm... i think it is not working.. though the battery testing is working is that possible? its a pretty old one though so i'm not surprised.

When I was shielding, i put a piece of foil under where the bridge is screwed in(i had removed it), and joined it(the foil) to both the pickup cavity(the foil can be seen slightly though the gap between the pickguard and the bridge, but is barely noticeable ) and the trem cavity . So now when i plug in, and i dont touch the bridge or the strings, the hum isn't there(ie. it does not come back) this does indicate that the wiring i did is connected properly doesn't it?

[newey]

Volt-

So now when i plug in, and i dont touch the bridge or the strings, the hum isn't there(ie. it does not come back)

What do you mean by "it does not come back"? Do you have hum under certain conditions and not under others?

[VOLT]

nope this is what i meant:
www.singlecoil.com/docs/silent.pdf (note: this is just to show you what i meant... im not using the clip thing )

the hum thats there when you dont touch the strings/ bridge is not there anymore. so this means that the grounds connected, right?

[D2o]

Hi Volt,

I'm not following how that link fits in - but don't try to explain.

If your hum is gone without you touching anything, then you have indeed grounded it properly.

Good job - your perseverence has apparently paid off.

[sumgai]

I followed the idea behind that link....

Let me beat ChrisK to saying that this has got to be just about the wackiest idea ever, safety-wise. A guitarist using this thing has no way to disassociate him/herself from the ground circuit - the alleged "zero volts" part of the power line - should a fault occur. And I'm not talking about just the DC power supply issue that JA has addressed, I'm talking about every kind of possible fault that might include the "fuse" (i.e., the guitarist) in the path of least resistance.

Even if the shock spasms your muscles thus causing you to jerk the alligator clip free, the damage has already been done - a bit late for that to help, IMO.

And I shudder to think what the new "ring" around the finger will look like.... I'll bet the paramedics whip out a camera to remember that one. (Said photos then appearing on the web before the night is over, on some site that laughs at stupidity.)

Long story short - either cure the hum properly, or put up with it, but use this device only if you havre a death-wish. 'Nuff said.




sumgai

[ashcatlt]

That's funny!

I was just talking to my bass player about something very similar the other day. I was joking, though. How often do you play your guitar without touching the strings?

[D2o]

Sure, I follow the idea, but Volt said a few things along the way:

When I was shielding, i put a piece of foil under where the bridge is screwed in(i had removed it), and joined it(the foil) to both the pickup cavity(the foil can be seen slightly though the gap between the pickguard and the bridge, but is barely noticeable ) and the trem cavity . So now when i plug in, and i dont touch the bridge or the strings, the hum isn't there(ie. it does not come back) this does indicate that the wiring i did is connected properly doesn't it?

and

"note: this is just to show you what i meant... im not using the clip thing"

Seeing as Volt has previously claimed to have alleviated the problem through connecting the bridge to the shielding chassis with a piece of foil, I took the "im not using the clip thing" at face value - which is why I don't get where it fits in (if he's not using it) ... until you connected the dots (maybe he is using it).

... VOLT: just to be safe, please clarify - you don't mean that you're actually using that ring, do you?

If you are, please heed sumgai's advice, as he has worked with potentially dangerous high voltage* as a routine part of his long and healthy career, and he is still here to talk about it for a good reason:

Long story short - either cure the hum properly, or put up with it, but use this device only if you havre a death-wish. 'Nuff said.

* also, that may be why he has much better hair than I do.

[D2o]

Jul 2, 2009 12:49:49 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

That's funny!

I was just talking to my bass player about something very similar the other day.

I believe you. Here's a blast from the past:

Mar 28, 2007 0:27:43 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

I was relatively used to the fact that if I touched my bass player, or didn't wear shoes in the basement while playing my guitar, that I was going to get a shock.

I remember another time I was playing a mustang through a vibroverb and singing into a shure green bullet plugged into an ampeg fliptop. I'd step up the mic and my fingers would tingle, my nose would hurt and the lights in the room seemed to flicker. Figured out a bit later it was actually my eyelids flickering.

I had the (non polarized, two prong) plugs to my tube amps (an Airline 1x12" and a Gibson Atlas built into a 1x15" combo) painted on one side. If you looked at a polarized outlet with the fat side on the left, the paint went up (most of the time).

I never thought I was close to death.

Gave the Atlas to a bassist friend of mine. His band practiced with a tube driven PA. I forgot to tell him about the paint on the plug. The had to unlpug the amp to get him to let go of the microphone. He's not dead, but he needed new shoes. That amp is at music - go - round now with a brand new (grounded) power cord. I think they want almost $300 for it.

Ah, good times.......:{

[ashcatlt]

Those experiences are all from over 15 years ago. I haven't had this issue for years, until I started playing in this group. I posted my confession re: playing in Dave's basement:

May 24, 2009 12:31:26 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

I used to glibbly state that I didn't have this problem since my amps (all virtual) are powered by low voltage DC wallwarts. I've found a problem with this recently, having begun playing in an actual band with other people.

The problem is that these virtual amps don't actually make any sound. They're fine for jamming through headphones, or even recording. Now that I need to be heard by other people, and sometimes over acoustic drums, I have to plug this into an actual amplifier. And guess what. The shield of every cable between that amp (a Peavey keyboard amp right now) and my guitar is at the same potential as the third prong on that amp's power cable. Apparently, this is not the same potential as the concrete floor in the basement in which we're practicing.

I'm kind of embarassed to admit it , but I discovered this in about the most "naturally selective" way possible - wearing socks in a puddle of spilled beer (there's carpet atop the concrete). Luckily the leakage isn't enough to cause any real harm, but it sure did affect my performance that day.

I have mentioned to the owner of the house that this is a concern which he should have adressed, but I don't currently have the option of just not using this outlet, and he doesn't currently have the budget to have it fixed. In the meantime, I'm wearing shoes while we practice.

Our vocalist, who also plays the "Bono guitar" found out about this yesterday. Luckily the mic is plugged into the same amp, so he shouldn't get the arcing between his nose/lips and the mic, but I forgot to tell him to wear rubber soled shoes, and he got a little jolt out of his guitar.

...right now we're in an even uglier situation. I moved my entire studio into our bass player's basement. It has zero x 3 prong outlets, but the landlord is having one put in just as soon as the fix it guy can get to it. In the meantime, we're running off one of those cheater adapters. Of course, the screw terminal is not connected since the outlet into which it's plugged only has two wires running to it. We had discussed running a wire from said screw terminal to the big copper wire which runs from the box out to the copper spike, but never actually got around to it.

So, we're not shocking each other. We're all playing through rack objects which are all plugged into the same power strip and all the chassis are touching. We DO have to wear shoes otherwise everything will shock us! My recording computer's mouse is sitting on a metal desk which sits directly on the concrete. I was sitting there mousing with one hand, other hand on the guitar, and my mouse-hand wrist touched the desk.

BZORT!

Well, the shocks haven't been that big...yet...

Don't try this at home.

[VOLT]

lol lemme get this straight. i DONT use the ring/clip thing.
BUT the aluminum foil is in contact with the bridge. So does this mean i should remove the aluminum foil from the bridge area?(ie. the bridge should not be in contact with the shielding i did?)
hmmm... i already set up my guitar :/

[ashcatlt]

No.

Generally, we want the bridge connected to ground some kinda way. Since it's a noise issue, we usually connect it to the shield if there is one.

...Err...Maybe.

We connect the bridge to ground to help reduce the noise emanating from the closest generator of EMI while it (you) is (are) in contact with the strings/bridge. Since you indicate that touching the strings makes no difference, you might have done such a fine job shielding that you don't need that connection. I have known instruments for which the bridge ground is meaningless.

[newey]

Bottom line, Volt-

If you have solved your noise problem, leave well enough alone. Play it and be happy.

[sumgai]

And to add another bottom line.....

Volt, I wasn't disparaging you or your activities, I was referring only to the fact that the alligator clip-and-finger ring setup would not let you "disconnect" via the normal method of taking your hands away from the strings. You'd move your hand all-too-naturally, yet you'd still be "connected" to whatever the fault is.

That's what's known in the trade as bad ju-ju!

As usual, warnings like this are de rigeur for this Forum - we put safety above all else. We tend to repeat that mantra whenever one of us thinks that a future viewer/member might accidentally take something out of context, and suffer some degree of harm. That would be bad Karma.

HTH




sumgai

[newey]

Bad Guitarma? ;D ;D

[KIIMH]

Jul 3, 2009 9:12:39 GMT -5 newey said:

Bad Guitarma? ;D ;D

you colled?