Wiring help please

[outris]

Thanks to Newey for helping me on an earlier thread.

I want to combine both the Shielded Strat wiring (found here PLUS the switches outlined by Random Hero (found here www.1728.com/guitar3.htm).

I'm new to this so I spent some time putting together a diagram so I could try to see how this would look before I started the wiring. I'd be grateful if someone could let me know if I got this right. Thanks in advance.

image updated below

[newey]

Outris-

I won't pretend to have vetted your whole diagram, as I have not done so. These are "at first blush" points:

1) The "-" lead from the middle pickup needs to go to S2, not to the star ground.

2) The 400V "blocking cap" is wired in line between the volume control and the star ground. It needs to be wired on the "far side" of the star ground, that is, between the star ground and the ultimate grounding point, where your star ground goes to ground.

3) With the standard 2 Strat tone controls, you'll get interaction of the tone controls in the series settings. You may or may not be able to live with this. We had this discussion recently, and there are solutions to this issue (and if'n I can find the durned link, I'll link to it). You may also want to consider using separate caps for the tone pots.

There may be more issues, I'll let others chime in. Don't worry, we'll get this sorted to your satisfaction.

[outris]

Thanks Newey. I looked at the original diagrams again and see that the 400v should be grounded via a ring terminal on the tone pot. I have modified my diagram as well to move the middle pkup ground wire to S2. Does this mean I can remove the other S2 ground wire (now marked with a red "X")?

updated image below

[newey]

Does this mean I can remove the other S2 ground wire (now marked with a red "X")?

You must do so.

see that the 400v should be grounded via a ring terminal on the tone pot.

That one's my fault, I didn't understand that the wire from the cap was going to a ring terminal on the Vol pot in your original diagram. That part is OK, it doesn't matter which pot shaft you put the ring terminal onto. I had just misread your original diagram.

[outris]

Thanks. Posting latest diagram.

Image removed. Updated below.

[ChrisK]

The left half of the DPDT switch S2 matches the wiring in RH's design.

The right half is not even close. Check your drawing against his.

This design requires the manipulation of up to 3 switches to change modes; there are several simpler, more featured designs available.

[outris]

Chris,

I'm all about simple, so if you can suggest an easier wiring scheme then count me in. ;D I'd like to use a scheme that includes the DP switches if possible just for kicks.

1) I checked the diagram against the original and moved the + from the middle pkup to the top right S2 lug which appears to match the RH diagram.
2) The wire from the center right S2 lug is currently going to the Volume pot. I can't tell from RH original where this should go if this is wrong.

Other than that, it seems to be correct (at least on S2), but I'm open to advice.

Image removed. Updated below.

[ChrisK]

I'm all about simple, so if you can suggest an easier wiring scheme then count me in. I'd like to use a scheme that includes the DP switches if possible just for kicks.

If you want the same switches, then it's not simpler.

I checked the diagram against the original and moved the + from the middle pickup to the top right S2 lug which appears to match the RH diagram.

This has no effect whatsoever. It is electrically the same. Where a wire are placed on a drawing means nothing. What matters is what it's connected to.


You have presumed that the switch drawing that RH used matches the imported lever switch that you are using; it does not. You have presumed that he has left out four terminals on the imported lever switch. He did not, he is showing one section of a lever switch (there are two).

The bottom right terminal on S2 comes from the pickup selection output (common pole) from the pickup selection section on the lever switch, you have it connected to the neck tone pot.

Lever Switches Explained

Off-Shore Lever Switches

[outris]

Chris, thanks for your patience. The fog is beginning to lift a little. I did indeed assume RH had left off some terminals.
So, is his diagram only showing Pole 1 of the lever switch?

If so, then I think I would run the connection from the lower right S2 terminal to "0" on the import switch?
1230 0123

[ChrisK]

So, is his diagram only showing Pole 1 of the lever switch?

Yep!

If so, then I think I would run the connection from the lower right S2 terminal to "0" on the import switch?
1230 0123

You betcha!

The right pole on the DPDT is selecting between the middle (+) output (in the series mode) and the selected pickups from the lever switch (in the parallel mode). This selection goes to the volume pot hot (and it's the only thing that goes to the volume pot hot).

Chris, thanks for your patience. The fog is beginning to lift a little.

That's why I just don't tell you what wires to move. I'd much rather that you "see" in order to enable other's to also see.


While you're at it, jumper the back shells of all three pots together; this will give redundant shield connections.

There are those a'web that will call these connections "ground loops", (they are not) but these folks struggle mightily to discern the difference between a burro and a burrow.

[outris]

Thanks Chris! I will update my diagram with your suggestions and post it again for review (hopefully correct this time).

[wolf]

I figured I should join this discussion. Yes, that is my website that has Random Hero's diagram. I decided to redraw that once again and here it is:

I figured it might help you when redrawing your own diagram. (I'm not 100% sure that mine is correct so keep that in mind.)

[outris]

Thanks Wolf. I wrote to you directly at your email address several weeks ago and you suggested I join this board. Great information and help here. Shown below is the latest diagram based on what I think Chris has suggested.

If I understand his reply, I added connections between the pot shells (black). I also think possibly I don't need the connection marked with the red "X". Seems like that connection would be redundant. Not sure though...

usera.ImageCave.com/outris/Guitarwiring With Switches v7.jpg[/img]

[sumgai]

outris,

Hi, and to the NutzHouse!

One of the things I do when analyzing a diagram (schematic or wiring layout) is to construct a "truth table" - I start with the 'hot' lead of one of the pickups, and follow it to every destination shown. I trace through switches and pots, until I get back to the negative lead of that pickup. When I get all the way back, the truth table gets a 1 (true) for that particular combination of switch positions. If I don't get all the way back, the table gets a 0 (zero). I don't suppose that you've done this for yourself, have you?

When I did this, I found that if one "accidentally" sets S1 in the up position, and the 5-way in the 1-2 position, the Middle pickup will go out to lunch, tone-wise..... Ditto for S2 down, and the 5-way set for 2-3.

I'd also like to give you my NSHO that S1 is redundant. Looking at your diagram, I percieve that you could accomplish your goals, and eliminate S1, with just a little tweaking. Not to mention that you'd also eliminate the problem I outlined above. Care to give that a try?

And for the record, yes, as stated emphatically by ChrisK above, you must remove the red wire with the "X". Not doing so will render your Series mode null and void. (I took that into account when building my truth table.)

Oh! Did I mention that you've hooked the Neck tone control to Terminal 3 instead of Terminal 1, on the lower half of the 5-way switch? Or was that what you planned?

HTH



sumgai

[outris]

Thanks Sumgai.

And for the record, yes, as stated emphatically by ChrisK above, you must remove the red wire with the "X".

I have removed the "X" wire as suggested.

Oh! Did I mention that you've hooked the Neck tone control to Terminal 3 instead of Terminal 1, on the lower half of the 5-way switch? Or was that what you planned?

My understanding from the Shielded Strat diagram is this the planned location. I have no problem moving it if it is incorrect.

I'd also like to give you my NSHO that S1 is redundant. Looking at your diagram, I percieve that you could accomplish your goals, and eliminate S1, with just a little tweaking. Not to mention that you'd also eliminate the problem I outlined above. Care to give that a try?

Yes! I'm becoming embarrassed with my apparent lack of understanding.
I'm fine with removing the S1. Can you help me with those tweaks?

I'm not entirely sure how to use the "truth" method of tracing back the connections, but I see that there are a bunch of resources on the reference board, so I'll shuffle over there. I'd really like to understand this stuff!

[newey]

Quote:
Oh! Did I mention that you've hooked the Neck tone control to Terminal 3 instead of Terminal 1, on the lower half of the 5-way switch? Or was that what you planned?

My understanding from the Shielded Strat diagram is this the planned location. I have no problem moving it if it is incorrect.

Again, your problem is one of translating the RH diagram, which is drawn using a traditional Fender lever switch, to the import style you show (and which I assume you are in fact using).

ChrisK has already pointed you to the relevant links on the differences in the types of switches.

[outris]

Understood. Wasn't looking at the lever correctly. Correction made.
Thanks!

[outris]

To minimize the confusion, I picked up a "lever style" 5 way switch today so I won't have to worry about translating the wiring to the "import style" 5 way.
Hopefully this will help me with the diagrams.

If anyone has an idea how to remove the S1 portion of this scheme to make it more efficient, I'd appreciate the advice

[sumgai]

Aug 30, 2009 15:22:28 GMT -5 outris said:

If anyone has an idea how to remove the S1 portion of this scheme to make it more efficient, I'd appreciate the advice

Hint: Connect the Tone controls directly to the pickups. You now have one half of your 5-way switch free, right? Replace S1 with that unused portion of the 5-way.

Further hint: Do not connect the 5-way's two common terminals together! Each has a specific purpose and destination, and they aren't the same.


HTH




sumgai

[outris]

Ok. So currently, my tone pots route as follows..
Neck = Terminal 3 on Pole 2
Middle = Terminal 2 on Pole 2

1 C
2 1
3 2
C 3

Do I understand I can route those leads to
Neck = Terminal 3 on Pole 1
Middle = Terminal 2 on Pole 1

Then:
C on Pole 1 will route to the lower right terminal on my DPDT (switch labeled S2). At this point since I am not connecting the two commons, my Pole 2 is now empty as you stated.

Still need to digest how to use Pole 2 as S1, but will give it a try.

[sumgai]

outtie,

You're starting to catch on, but.....

Understand, when in series mode, a tone control that is connected to a pickup and to ground will control the tone for the entire chain of pickups. If more than one tone control is hooked to various pickups in the series chain, with all of them going to ground (as is normal practice for parallel wiring), then there is more than a little bit of interaction. We want to reduce or avoid that interaction as much as possible.

The best way to do that is to simply hook each tone control subsystem directly to each pickup - the control pot goes to the pickup's hot lead, and the capacitor goes to the negative lead. There will still be some interaction, but it's much more predictable, and by most accounts, it's also more tonally appealing.

Now, you've moved the tone controls off the switch section, and put them where they belong. Good, we can forget them from now on. Next, you need to run a wire from the upper Terminal 1 to the lower Terminal 1 - this puts the Neck hot lead on both poles, capish? Do the same for Terminal 3, and that takes care of the Bridge pup.

Finally, run a wire from the common terminal of that pole to the upper-left terminal of S2. Voila! you're done!! You now have your 5-way automatically selecting which pup will be in series with the Middle pickup.

But wait, there's.... there's a dead spot in my sound!! Yes, position 3 of your 5-way (the Middle only) will go dead if you select series mode with S2. The fix for that is easy - merely hook one of the other two pickups to Terminal 2 also. This being a shorting switch, that will also give you Bridge and Neck in parallel with each other, both in series with the Middle - something you didn't have before. (The exact position will depend on which pickup you connect to Terminal 2.)

Now, your assignment is to draw this up, and post it! ;D

HTH



sumgai

[newey]

Ok. So currently, my tone pots route as follows..
Neck = Terminal 3 on Pole 2
Middle = Terminal 2 on Pole 2

1 C
2 1
3 2
C 3

Do I understand I can route those leads to
Neck = Terminal 3 on Pole 1
Middle = Terminal 2 on Pole 1

Sumgai said:

Next, you need to run a wire from the upper Terminal 1 to the lower Terminal 1 - this puts the Neck hot lead on both poles, capish? Do the same for Terminal 3, and that takes care of the Bridge pup.

Let's not engender more confusion by renumbering outris' switch here. Per his spec, neck is lug 3, bridge is lug 1.

It doesn't matter conceptually, since both lugs are getting wired the same, but when it comes to putting the switch in the guitar we don't want it backwards since he may not have enough wire to flip it 180°

[outris]

Newey/Sumgai,

To help clarify, I was using the standard strat config for my last post, whereas I believe Sumgai was basing his comments on the RH diagram which has Neck at T1 and Bridge at T3.
I'm trying to take this one step at a time, so I started by understanding how clearing Pole 2 would work from the standard strat wiring.

So my last post (standard strat config), my tone pots routed as follows.
Neck Tone = Terminal 3 on Pole 2
Middle Tone = Terminal 2 on Pole 2

1 C
2 1
3 2
C 3

New tone wiring based on Sumgai's post (using RH wiring)
Neck = Terminal 1 on Pole 1 (because I will now have the Neck PKUP wired to P1-T1 per RH wiring)
Middle = Terminal 2 on Pole 1 (that has not changed from previous post).

Then run wire from
P1-T1 to P2-T1 (Neck)
P1-T3 to P2-T3 (Bridge is now T3 per RH wiring)

I'll diagram this as Sumgai asked, including his other wiring comments and post it for review. Thanks again to all.

[outris]

Sumgai,
Posting latest diagram based on what I think you have suggested...am I getting close?
usera.ImageCave.com/outris/Guitarwiring With Switches v11.jpg[/img]

[newey]

outris-

SG suggested that:

The best way to do that is to simply hook each tone control subsystem directly to each pickup - the control pot goes to the pickup's hot lead, and the capacitor goes to the negative lead. There will still be some interaction, but it's much more predictable, and by most accounts, it's also more tonally appealing.

Now, you've moved the tone controls off the switch section, and put them where they belong. Good, we can forget them from now on.

Originally, he was telling you to move the tone pots off the second pole of the switch, to free it up for other uses. He suggested this so that you would "see" how this could be done.

The above quote suggested that, to avoid interaction, that you wire each tone control across its respective pickup, avoiding the switch entirely. (Now we're moving beyond theory and on to the nuts and bolts).

BTW, nice diagram and flattering us in the credits will always get you props!

[sumgai]

outris,

You're so close! You've got the switching exactly correct, but you've missed one detail on the tone controls....

You still show both capacitors going to signal return (nee ground), but only the Neck's cap should do that - the Middle's cap should be connected to the black lead of the Middle pickup, not ground. In this way, when you rotate the Mid control, you don't have a "Master" tone control that over-rides, and fights with, the Neck tone control (when both are selected in series, of course). The easiest point of connection is simply the middle-left terminal of S2, and you're all done.

It's a wrap! ;D

Further discussion:

You now show the Neck connected to Terminal 2 of the second pole on the 5-way. This will prevent an unexpected dead spot, but there's a gotcha. Right after I posted my last message, I realized that when you set the switch into position 2-3 (to use your example), you will have not only Bridge and Middle from the first pole, but you will also have Bridge and Neck from the second pole! This will be evident in your tone for both parallel and series settings. So it's either that, the tone of which I happen to like, or it's the dead spot in series, position 2 of the 5-way..... or it's another separate switch. Your call, of course. Just didn't want you to be surprised. (And you might experiment with either the Bridge or the Neck on that Terminal 2 of Pole 2. Select the combination of Neck/Mid or Mid/Bridge that you can do without, and wire it all up accordingly.

Good luck!

HTH




sumgai

[outris]

Cool! Having the Bridge/Middle and Neck/Bridge might be good. I was also looking at the much simpler "neck on" switch scheme, so this method would seem to give me a portion of that as well.

I will update the diagram with the middle cap wiring change and add your comments about the above in case someone else needs it down the road.

Thanks to all for the assistance. I think some of this actually penetrated my thick skull.... ;D

By the way, any idea what "ssstonelover" used for his drawings (software?) over in the General Guitar Schematics board? They are very well done.

[outris]

Final version....I hope

[ChrisK]

By the way, any idea what "ssstonelover" used for his drawings (software?) over in the General Guitar Schematics board?

I don't remember anymore but I think that it was Photoshop or Illustrator.

It was a professional presentation package. While producing pretty results, it generally is not of meaningful use in schematic iteration.


Send him a PM and ask.

[sumgai]

outris,

I also seem to recall that ssstonelover was a professional graphic artist. He still visits once in awhile, so it's likely you can reach him via a PM.

Your circuit is now ready to go. But remember, at no time are you ever really finished - this is just your starting point!! ;D Always be ready to experiment at the drop of a soldering iron!


Yet more discussion:

What I've given you is just about the simplest possible way to get series and parallel with only one additional switch, and no other parts beyond what you alread had on hand.

You could add a switch to give you "Neck always on" (or "Bridge always on"), but then it wouldn't be quite so simple to operate. An improvement on that would be the "Free Neck On Switch" circuit by ChrisK. Still not quite as simple, but it's totally stealth, and costs nothing to try (except a bit of time and effort).

You could greatly improve this circuit merely by dropping in a 4-pole superswitch. That will not only eliminate the duplicate combinations, but also eliminate the dead spot. Plus, it could be wired to give you the Neck/Bridge (in parallel or series), if you so wished.

HTH




sumgai