eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Sept 14, 2009 0:42:41 GMT -5
I hope I don't seem too lazy here. I've looked around and can't find exactly what I want. I know this is the place come.
I tried myself and I must have a couple things wrong. It's and Epi LP that I've put a set of Ibanez Super 58's in. I'm replacing all wiring, pots and switch.
Right now I think all I want to do is use push-pulls at the volumes for individual coil-taps and wired so that the volumes are separated, as in one on "0" doesn't turn both off.
I'm open for any other suggestions too. I'm not sure I need or want any more than the above cause that would keep everything nice and stock looking. I was reading about the 50's wiring just not sure. THANKS
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Post by newey on Sept 14, 2009 5:57:24 GMT -5
Ead- You might take a look at JohnH's take on the Jimmy Page Mod. This has more than what you want, but you could use that as a starting point to see how the coil cut wiring looks, then just eliminate the push/pulls on the tone pots for the series/parallel and phase. The diagram uses SD wire colors, so you will have to correlate those with your Ibanez 58s. Draw up a diagram based on this, post it and we'll make sure you're on track.
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Sept 20, 2009 20:58:48 GMT -5
Here's how I see it. I got anything backwards here? Not the best drawing but needed to hurry before you all go to bed. I just bring all grounds to back off a volume pot right? Do I ground the selector switch and jack at a volume pot too?
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Post by sumgai on Sept 20, 2009 21:55:15 GMT -5
tuned_in_fourths-er, Yes, you'll want to bring all grounds to the back of one of the volume pots, then run a wire from there to the output jack as well - that'll give you a complete circuit. Don't forget a wire to the bridge for the string ground. However, the rest of your diagram is a bit schizo..... Why did you reverse each of the color pairs for the two pickups, which you label as being the exact same? The +/- callouts remained the same, so where did you get the idea that a "north or south" and a "start or finish" label would somehow become different between the two pups? So far as I can tell, what you'll end up with is an "out of phase" sound when you select both pickups, but because of the labeling inconsistancy, I can't be sure of that. HTH sumgai
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Sept 21, 2009 0:33:01 GMT -5
Shoot! Those freakin PU leads fry my little brain every time. (or maybe I did it to myself years ago) I'm not sure how to answer what I was thinking but I have another gtr with these pickups that I rewired. guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=wiring&thread=4095I was looking at that (Not that I really understand it). I was also looking at how these PU's were wired stock in a JetKing1. Wow that's a fuzzy picture, sorry. For some reason I just can't wrap my mind around how two PU's work together even though I have read some about it.
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Post by sumgai on Sept 21, 2009 1:49:46 GMT -5
OK, I think I have it sussed out now..... Your depiction of the original Ibanez drawings helped, thanks. What's happening is that the Super 58's are the same pickup, but when wired as shown at the very bottom, you'll have them wired in the proper polarity with respect to each other. Being as these are humbuckers to begin with, the color coding really won't matter vis-a-vis the humming and/or buzzing, but it will make a difference in the sound - in phase or out of phase. I see now that you've edited your drawing, changing the start/finish callouts to match the colors, making both pickups look the same. That's a good start..... now wire it up like the JetKing diagram, except that you'll want to use your volume/tone per pickup, not the single Master Volume/Tone as in the JetKing. Be sure to follow the color codes exactly, as this will ensure that you are shunting out the correct coil, leaving the remaining single coils to be RWRP with each other (and again, in phase with each other). If you don't, you'll suffer some, possibly a lot, of humming or buzzing when both pups are selected. BTW, you also show the Bridge pickup as being coil-shunted to the Volume control instead of like the Neck, which is coil-shunted to ground. Both methods will work, and sometimes it's necessary to do it this way, but in your case, you have the correct wire color codes right from the factory. Using these color codes, your method will shunt out the wrong coil, making for that humming/buzzing I mentioned earlier. In this case, the diagram is your friend. Follow it exactly, and all will be well in eadgber-land. HTH sumgai
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Sept 21, 2009 3:39:39 GMT -5
OK thanks, Let me study on this some... I'll try and redraw and repost as soon I'm done scratching my head. Might be good for a giggle anyway For the bridge coil-tap, are you saying it should look like the neck tap? Move the two inter coil leads to the same switch position & ground it the same way too? Oh yeah, In eadgber-land... Dylan describes it best:"Any minute now I'm expecting all hell ta break loose"
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 22, 2009 1:03:02 GMT -5
I'm completely confused by the color scheme here, so I'll ignore it. If we can assume that both pickups are the same in every relevant respect (you should test them first to be sure), then you will want to shunt opposite coiils. That is, you want to shunt the slug coil in one and the screw coil in the other. Doesn't matter (much?) which "direction" you decide to shunt. You can wire the two pickups exactly the same. Same color "top-most" on both pickups, same color "bottom-most", same colors connected for the series junction. One will be shunted "upward" toward the hot ouput and one gets shunted "downward" toward "ground". This is what the switching in your first diagram does. Or you can wire one of the humbuckers "inside out". Look at the series connection. Which wire is the top of its coil? We want to make that the "top-most" point for this pickup. Make the other wire the "bottom-most". Twist the other two together for the new series connection. Now each coil is still sitting "right side up", but they're stacked the other way. Still with me here? Now we can shunt both pickups "downward". This is what your second diagram does. I think you tried to shoehorn a poor understanding of the second into the first and ended up flipping the whole humbucker upside down and inside out. That's why we're here, though.
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Sept 23, 2009 4:27:14 GMT -5
Me too, or atleast how to use it.Sorry. I am sure about the color codes at the bottom of the 2nd pic I posted. I did test them awhile back (screwdriver tap test) and it shows that black & red=Slug / blue & white=Screw (same on both PU's) The color code is a DiMarzio except my blue would be DiMarzio's green.
Ok here's where I get lost!. I have been reading as I get time so don't beat me with heavy stuff!
From what I read... to use the screw coils in tap modes one PU will stunt to ground and the other needs stunted to it's hot. I'm trying to keep my screw coils going in tap modes, as would be normal right?
I'm trying! Been reading up on this as much as possible when I get time!
I think you are right. That org. JetKing wiring has me lost from the start. When I look at it, it says to me that they used red as hot for the neck and black as hot for bridge. I think that's what fries my mind. I don't know. I'm a simple minded dude here or something. Sorry! but I have been reading up!
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Post by newey on Sept 23, 2009 5:31:40 GMT -5
No, probably not. As Ash pointed out, if the pickups are in fact identical, you'd want one screw coupled with one slug coil so that the combo is hum-cancelling.
That, of course, assumes the pickups are identical, and they may not be.
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Post by sumgai on Sept 23, 2009 12:39:18 GMT -5
Well, as I recall it, the Super 58's are identical, or at least, I'm not finding anywhere that Ibanez makes any claims about putting them in some special positioning order so that hum cancelling can take place. In fact, the seeminly-odd-at-first-glance wiring scheme (for the JetKing) is exactly the answer to using the same pickup for both positions, and yet getting full humbucking capabilities when both are selected with only one coil apiece being active. This also makes wiring simpler, and more consistent, the very hallmarks of 'best design practices'. If you elect to have both screw coils (or both slug coils) active, then you'll have less humbucking, and between the two coils, an out-of-phase sound. (And for those of you who are thinking that you can just reverse the wires (red for black, etc.), think! What happens to the pickup itself, between the two coils, when you do this? Hint: tears will ensue, I guarantee it!) Now, the JetKing way of doing things is is only a starting point, as all good Nutz know! Don't hesitate to experiment - you simply can't damage anything, except your tone. Whatever you do that you don't like, you can always un-do. For these reasons, it's a perfectly good idea to leave your guitar open and spread out on the worktable so that you can change wires around at will. How else are you make like a mad scientist? Which is only the first step on the path to becoming a true GuitarNut! ;D One thing: For short-term experiments like this, you can just twist wires around the terminals of the switches or pots - you don't have to solder/un-solder/re-solder everything every time you move a wire. When you pick up your axe to try the new tone(s), just be careful about wiggling things and breaking them loose. Again, no real harm if they do come loose, except frustration on your part as it doesn't give you what you expected. Enjoy! HTH sumgai
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 23, 2009 13:00:55 GMT -5
If you elect to have both screw coils (or both slug coils) active, then you'll have less humbucking, and between the two coils, an out-of-phase sound. I'm not following this here, are you refering to his first diagram? If both pickups are exactly the same and wired exactly the same, the string sensing action will have the same fundamental polarity (that is, they'll be "in phase") no matter which coil is cut (shunted) on each. The only question is: Will it hum? To achieve hum-cancelling you need to select opposite coils. And it does. I was going to try to explain how this works, but then I looked at it again and found that it does not match the color scheme presented below itself! I still think that the switching you've got in your first diagram is easier, since it allows you to "orient" both pickups the same way without having to try to figure out the "inside out" thing.
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Post by wolf on Sept 23, 2009 15:40:29 GMT -5
Well, maybe it's time somone made a diagram:
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 23, 2009 15:50:17 GMT -5
Now that puts them out of phase, coil cut or no. It'll be hum-cancelling alright, but also tone-cancelling.
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Post by JohnH on Sept 23, 2009 15:51:19 GMT -5
Wolf - are you sure on that? It looks inside out and out of phase and upside down!
The latest Jetking arrangement posted above seems right - both pickups are in phase with all coils having + in the same direction, and the order of upper and lower coils swapped between pups so that the coil cut on each gives one north and one south
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 23, 2009 15:56:13 GMT -5
Wolf - are you sure on that? It looks inside out and out of phase and upside down! The latest Jetking arrangement posted above seems right - both pickups are in phase with all coils having + in the same direction, and the order of upper and lower coils swapped between pups so that the coil cut on each gives one north and one south ...but only if you ignore the color scheme called out with it. For it to work correctly we need it to consider Black and Blue to be one coil, with Red and White being the other.
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Post by D2o on Sept 23, 2009 16:29:30 GMT -5
It looks inside out and out of phase and upside down! You Aussies!
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Post by wolf on Sept 23, 2009 17:32:24 GMT -5
Okay, I figured that I'd get the Ibanez wire colors from GuitarNuts but it's not on the chart, so I went to Guitar Electronics and found this: so, if nothing else, you'd have to agree with the conventional Ibanez wiring in my diagram, correct? Incidentally, DiMarzio wire colors are exactly the same as Ibanez except that Ibanez uses blue whereas DiMarzio uses green for the "fourth wire". These two graphics are from my website page dealing with coil cut switching: www.1728.com/guitar7.htmThe top one is conventional and the bottom one is "inside-out" wiring: Wire colors are based on DiMarzio but if you just think of those green wires as blue, you've got Ibanez. We must assume that my guitar page is correct but let's not just rely on my own pickup wiring knowledge. I made a thread here at GuitarNuts to ask if it looked right and I received no negtive replies. Plus, that page gets about 50 "hits" per day and if the infrmation is wrong, I'd get some seriously angry E-Mails. Maybe I'm wrong but as I've said here before, I think all that "start" "finish" "north" "south" "screw coil" "slug coil" foolishness causes more mistakes than it helps. ********************************************** Edited To Add: That's my revised diagram for the coil cut switching. It seems I made a faux pas in the original drawing. The wire colors in the original are correct but I forgot to switch the plus and minus signs on the bottom coil in the "Inside-Out" diagram.
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Post by JohnH on Sept 23, 2009 18:16:46 GMT -5
Appologies for my chheky comment!. But is it the intention that if you combine coil-cut instances of the Ibanez conventional diagram, with that of the inside out version, the result is an in phase humcaneclling combo of 2 single coils? The diagram above looks like it would always cut to the red/black coils, one of which would be phase reversed resulting in an out of phase, hum cancelling combo.
If one was to have one of each in a guitar, to optimise hum cancelling and all in phase, I think one pickup would be, in the order top to bottom red black white blue
and the other: white blue red black
John
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Post by wolf on Sept 23, 2009 19:00:52 GMT -5
John H No problem with your comment. Anyway, to me it seems, that in the "Inside-Out" wiring, the active coil during coil cut would be the blue and white one, whereas with the conventional wiring, it would be the red and black one, producing an in-phase humcanelling pickup.
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Post by newey on Sept 23, 2009 19:59:50 GMT -5
Ok guys, my head is spinning. And eadgber's must be spinning twice as fast. Back in April, eadgber posted on rewiring his Ibanez, equipped with the same 58s. And we had pretty much the same confusing discussion of the color scheme, in or out of phase, etc. that we're having now: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=wiring&thread=4095eadgber, if you rewired the Ibanez as per the other thread, and the pickups were in phase, it would seem to me that this guitar should follow what you did previously, color-wise, and all will be fine. I think wolf is right, the "start/finish" "=/-" labels don't help matters at all. They are arbitrary designations, only useful to assure correct phasing. And Ibanez further confuses the issue by designating that, to wire their coils in series, the "finishes" should both be tied together on the one- whereas every other mfr I've seen would tie one coil's "start" to the other coil's "finish". The Ibanez way of designating these leaves one with 2 "starts" coming out of the HB- which deprives the word "start" of any potential meaning it ever had. The other pickup Ibanez has as the opposite- both "starts" are to be tied together for the series connection between the coils. To me, this means either: 1) Ibanez' diagrams are wrong, and show the pups wired out-of-phase, Or2) The neck and bridge pups are not identical, and Ibanez has chosen some weird terminology to indicate that the N and B screw coils are in fact RWRP with respect to each other (and the slugs likewise). It seems to me that the second scenario is far more likely. But the results from eadgber's first thread should have told the tale, one way or the other. And wolf- I understand from your website's description of the "inside out" wiring that the "standard" wiring, used in both pickups, will result in one coil (either "N" or "S") being shunted in both pickups, while using the "inside out" scheme on both gives the opposite coils in both pickups. But I fail to see how wiring one pickup "inside out" and the other one "standard" gives you in-phase between the 2 pups. If I'm missing something, please explain . . . And I hope I haven't further muddied the waters here . . .
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Post by JohnH on Sept 23, 2009 20:31:40 GMT -5
OK Wolf, I see now. i was expecting that the uppermost wires would go to hot and the lower one to ground, but in fact the +'s go to hot and the -'s go to ground. (so it is upside down! - no 'down-under' comments please - risk of a short sharp smite!)
John
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 23, 2009 23:32:10 GMT -5
For any one pickup HB, one coil will be RWRP with respect to the other.
IF the two pickups are identical THEN the Slug coil in the Bridge pickup must be RWRP with respect to the Bridge pickup's Screw coil AND the Neck pickup's Screw coil.
The RW cancels the hum. The RP keeps the fundamentals "in phase" (but only when it is also RW).
Therefore, if we want the hum-cancelling and the fundamental "in-phasiness", we need the Slug coil from one, and Screw coil from the other.
We must be very careful to avoid RWing a coil which wouldn't otherwize be. Likewise, we don't want to inadvertantly un-RW the other coil. This will cause the fundamentals to be "out of phase". So let's not reverse the leads of either of the coils, okay?
Now we need to figure out how to select the desired coils. The easy way to do it is to shunt (or short) across one coil. There are other ways to do it, but this is kind of convention. Remember, though, that we need to select opposite coils.
The shunting action can be accomplished one of two ways. Take the "series connection" and switch to contact one of the "output" wires.
For example, say we have the Screw coil connected to "ground", and the Slug coil connected to "hot", connected together via the "series connection".
Switch the series connection to "ground", and you've shorted the two wires from the Screw coil together, while connecting the Slug coil directly to ground. You've selected the Slug coil.
Switch the series connection to "hot" and you've shorted the two wires from the Slug coil together and connected the Screw coil to the "hot". You've selected the Screw coil.
By having the switch for one pickup go one way (toward ground) and the other the other (toward hot) the first drawing in this thread accomplishes selection of opposite coils. Problem with that drawing, though, is well... "...let's not reverse the leads of either of the coils, okay?"
On the other hand, we can follow Wolf's revised diagram, what we've come to call "inside out" wiring of one of the HBs.
Let's wire the Bridge normal like so: "we have the Screw coil connected to "ground", and the Slug coil connected to "hot", connected together via the "series connection"."
Now let's wire the Neck pickup "inside out": "we have the Screw coil connected to "hot", and the Slug coil connected to "ground", connected together via the "series connection"." ("...let's not reverse the leads of either of the coils, okay?")
If we short toward ground on the Bridge, we get the Slug coil. If we short toward ground on the Neck, we get the Screw coil. This is what the Ibanez drawing tried to do, but I've completely given up on that one thanks to wire color discrepencies.
I think the first way is easier, because it allows you to ignore most of the rest of the considerations in this thread. Confirm that both pickups are identical in terms of magnetic polarity and "winding direction" for like coils. Wire them exactly the same with respect to hot, ground, and series connection. Switch one in one direction and the other the other. Done.
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Sept 25, 2009 4:30:17 GMT -5
Hey it's been a long night. All I can say right now is thanks! Wow you guys are right on it! Most usefull site on the net to me. My head is a spinning right now but I'll hopefully have time to read closer this weekend. If I need to do that test again to be sure, let me know.The colors to coil is right but I think I forgot to note the inter coil leads or something in above picture. I hope I'm not making things harder than they need to be Maybe I need to just get a set of Seymours but these are some nice true sounding HB worth saving I think. I should say that the other project with super58's works great! It's my go-to, in the stand, ready to play gtr!
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Sept 27, 2009 4:50:58 GMT -5
I want make a crazy stab at this again. I'm going re-read all the post in this tread and I'm also reading your site Wolf. This is some info I was reading from the beginning. I know it's probably wrong but if an idiot like me follows this, I'd have to assume I use both pickups the same. Ok, if I ignore what I thought I knew about my last time workin with these pu's, only going by the info above and ignoring how they were org wired in the Jetking.Then why is this so hard? I'm missing something big here: That's too simple to be right! Sorry guys.Don't mean to be so hard headed. I have a "2nd best guess" I'll draw tomorrow!
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Post by JohnH on Sept 27, 2009 7:36:56 GMT -5
Well, I dont see any problem with that, you have your pups in phase, and cutting to the different coils on each one - seems cool enough!
Just connect up the grounds / pots backs etc
Personally, Im not keen on that independent volume wiring, but what you have seems to be a correct version of it. If you dont like it, its easy to swap it over later by changing the vol pot connections. cheers John
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Post by newey on Sept 27, 2009 7:56:10 GMT -5
ead-
I don't think you're missing anything. The entire discussion has centered only on the color scheme for these pups, and on whether you will be in phase and humbucking with the coil splitting.
You can do this, as you have done now, by translating the wiring scheme from the gibson pups. That should work, so long as the Gibby coils are the same as the Ibanez.
Or, you could not ignore what you learned on the Ibanez wiring project. As I said, if that one worked OK in terms of the phase of the coils, then you already know.
If you wire it using either method and you get an OOP sound, it's a matter of switching 2 wires- not so hard on an LP with rear access.
To be 100% sure, in advance, that it's right you would need to check the individual coils of each HB for polarity and phasing, as well as for which wires go to which coils. That, too, is fairly easily done, but given that you can button up an LP and still access the wiring, I'd say go for it, odds are you should be OK and if not, it's an easy fix.
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Post by sumgai on Sept 27, 2009 13:33:46 GMT -5
6-stringer, Your latest diagram is also correct, as is the JetKing, but there is one difference. Minor, to be sure, so we'll take just a moment for inspection. The JetKing uses a wiring scheme that allows both pickps to be (independently) tapped by shunting one of the coils to ground. In your latest incarnation (as in your original version), one of the pickups has a coil shunted to the 'hot' lead. This is not a problem! It presents an "inconsistancy" between the two tapping switches in how they are wired, but that's about all that one can say.... in operation, the desired effect will take place, with no morning-after grunt.* BTW, you want to take care to not install the Neck pickup with the slug coil facing towards the neck - that'll "accidentally" give you the Gary Moore tone. I'm not saying anything here, I'm just sayin', ya know..... HTH sumgai * Don't ask me where that came from, it just popped up out of my vast recollection of old TV commercials! ;D Now, who can tell me which commercial?!
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Sept 28, 2009 5:47:46 GMT -5
I'm like a hog in slop staring @ winning lotto numbers! That means happy in southern Ohio. Seems to work. Taps are working and sound right. Independent volumes work. No hum or out of phase going on that I can hear(yet). I only had one real problem when I felt like I broke a connection inside of the Orange Drop cap for the neck. I had to use the org cap. I have not been able to turn up tonight much,, using a different amp w/ this gtr & strings need changed! I need to plug it back in the amp I used it with most and give it some trys. I think I'm still going to have a question or two for you all. I'll go ahead and ask. 1. Dose the independent volumes muddy the tone? 2. The tones??? At 10 seemed like it was set at 0. Back off to 9 and starts working kind of. Not much range of tone! 0 muddy, 10 muddy and 2-9 all the same mostly. This may just be me and some bad amp and pedal settings with dead strings but this is what I noticed right away only playing a few minutes.
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Post by JohnH on Sept 28, 2009 6:39:28 GMT -5
The risk of mud is why I dont like the independent volume controls. But that would only be a factor at reduced volume. So if you are getting mud at full volume then its not that. Also, 0 and 10 on the tone pots both being being mud cant be right - it might be that there is something grounding both outer tone pot lugs instead of just one, but on both controls? odd....
John
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