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Post by ijustwannastrat on Sept 19, 2009 14:04:23 GMT -5
My guitar theory teacher has noticed that I tend to play with my thumb over the neck, and is having a fit. I usually mute the E, A, and G strings with my thumb when not in use, and I occassionally fret with it when 4 fingers is not enough. I do put it in the "correct" position (back of neck) when I am soloing, or doing some stretching, about 5 frets+. I was wondering, does anybody else have this tendency? and is it really as bad as I'm being told?
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Post by sydsbluesky on Sept 20, 2009 14:26:58 GMT -5
You must have some hands on you, boy.
I have a measurable deal of trouble fretting anything with my thumb, such as in an F7M*. I'd say that it's not ideal, but then again... Jimi Hendrix.
e 0 B 1 G 2 D 3 A 3 E 1
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Post by ijustwannastrat on Sept 20, 2009 22:32:08 GMT -5
My neck is 1.67" wide at nut, 2.04' wide at 12th fret no frets or strings, .87" thick at nut, .99" thick at 12th fret.
In my understanding, this is a small neck.... my uncle had a local guy make him a larger neck for his strat, and I can't reach my thumb near as far over the top on that.... But it's still over the top
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Post by andy on Sept 21, 2009 9:54:42 GMT -5
I occasionally fret with my thumb, but it is often there muting the E string when I'm playing.
Is it correct? No.
Neither is not being able to read music notation, but many of us get by just fine without that, too.
I often work with classical musicians, a very 'by-the-book' bunch of musos, and without that approach, classical music might not exist. Of course, without folk willing to stuff the rules, there would be no such thing as a fiddle player, an upright bass player, a jazz quartet, or a rock guitarist, for that matter.
Playing 'correctly' might make you more efficient in your movements, and might make you more comfortable in the long run, avoiding possible strain or injury from playing, but just because it isn't 'correct', doesn't mean its wrong.
Be aware of the benefits of that approach to playing- don't feel like a naughty boy because you might prefer to do things another way. Look at all the options and do what works best for yourself, which may be the 'sensible' way, may not.
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Post by sumgai on Sept 21, 2009 11:47:43 GMT -5
andy's correct - thinking inside the box won't open all the possibilities for you. However, take a gander at any shredder on YouTube.... notice where they put their thumbs? Welcome to Clue-ville! And yes, there are some exceptions, but by and large, the thumb-over-neck position prevents your maximum comfort. You can, and should, do it when needful to the music (muting, or even sounding out, a string or two), but not because you want to give your thumb a resting spot. Again, notice that most shredders hold their guitars much closer to vertical than horizontal..... that alone forces their thumbs into what we're calling "the correct position", which in turn is more comfortable, which in turn allows the hand to move more freely, which translates to more quickly, etc. etc. yadda yadda yadda...... Now, for some unusual exceptions to all this, visit www.candyrat.com and view some of the clips. Talk about unconventional! (My personal favorite is still Andy McKee, but it's only by an RCH, they're all so bleeping good!) HTH sumgai
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Post by DarKnight on Sept 21, 2009 14:28:00 GMT -5
I'm just mentioning Paul Gilbert real quick. He uses both ways time to time... For example song Scarified from the Racer X -times - especially that quite complex classical passage after main riff. Don't know if it helps with string skipping or something, but on the other hand Paul has quite long fingers... So it might not be a problem to have thumb over in complex passages that case. I'm personally using both ways "by instinct" and I feel that having thumb over neck gives not only that usual extra leverage to bends, but also brings my fingers down more perpendicular to the fretboard... So I feel that my fingers don't hit adjancent strings accidentally that often. Often when playing on top three strings I put my thumb over the neck. On the other hand some awful stretches have to be played with classical position unless you have crazy spaghetti fingers. As my conclusion I find that using both ways is ok as long as you know when you are using wrong position - meaning it affects you playing in negative way. Dark
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Post by lunaalta on Sept 21, 2009 17:30:24 GMT -5
Agree with DK.... If you can move between textbook and 'your thing' then do so, but just don't let your teacher see it happen. Sounds like you are developing your own style. [ADDED] Just watched a Jeff Beck (my idol) video and it seems he has no problem hanging his thumb over the fingerboard. But then he doesn't seem to have many problems doing anything with a guitar....LOL
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vwxyz67
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Post by vwxyz67 on Feb 3, 2010 13:00:43 GMT -5
go to youtube and search richie havens at woodstock and watch his thumb. His thumb is longer than my index finger but watch how he makes chords with it. Id like to know how he tunes his guitar.
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Post by D2o on Feb 3, 2010 13:26:17 GMT -5
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Post by vonFrenchie on Feb 3, 2010 16:36:30 GMT -5
I personally drop my thumb on the E string when Im playing chords. I have a problem with my index finger, plus I have small fingers, so I cant press down evenly all the way across the neck so I just drop my thumb in for a little extra help.
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Post by dunkelfalke on Feb 3, 2010 18:00:35 GMT -5
Somewhat. The thumb ends at the top of the neck when I play notes - it is easier to bend that way. When I play chords, I'll have to do a proper barré, because my fingers (and especially the thumbs) are so short, that even on my Revelation with her ultraslim neck I often can't reach the E string with a thumb. It has got a positive side, in a way: I play classical and electric guitar in the same way.
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Post by 4real on Feb 14, 2010 0:25:02 GMT -5
I have played a fair while and even classical...there are a lot of styles and techniques where this is not ideal or 'best practice'...
However...in the last ten years or so I have completely changed my perspective on this kind of thing...there is a lot that only a thumb over style can provide and more.
# Good damping of the low E string # convenient way to play bass notes # more leverage with bending strings # unique voicings only available with this technique # less fatigue with this 'grip' # good for certain techniques that require fills to chords or switching from chords to lead
you will not want to do this with classical...and a lot of other techniques, and I wouldn't go over board with it.
If you have a teacher, best to learn what he says, a lot of thumb over things can be restricting or lazy...but you know...define "wrong" in the face of so many electric players that use that technique.
Everyone's hands are different, and their musical styles and aspirations. I have fairly large hands and don't seek to do the shredding speed thing or huge stretches unnecessarily. Damping is very important to me, playing cleanly and comfortably...
for acoustic and electric, for my 'style' these days...this is generally how I play...
I got to say that if you look at just about any of these guys like JB, hendrix, etc....they do this and not just because they are 'lazy' or don't know better, much of it is important to the sound they are getting (especially hendrix's stuff)...there are jazz chords and shredding stuff that can't be done this way, but other things that can't be done without it.
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jul 15, 2010 19:52:04 GMT -5
my hands are too small to do any actual fretting with my thumb, but yeah i do try to mute unused strings when playing 1st pos. chords.
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jul 16, 2010 1:11:12 GMT -5
ok, i just got done with an hour or so of trying to learn I want Candy. I was def hooking my thumb over top, at the first knuckle, hanging my whole hand from it. gets a little bothersome after 15000 repetitions, and I'm still not even doing it as fast as the dude.
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Post by chuck on Jul 17, 2010 11:46:50 GMT -5
my thumb tends to stay on the middle of the neck . the back of the neck , not the fretboard .)
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Post by ijustwannastrat on Jul 20, 2010 0:08:10 GMT -5
Oh oh, chuck's a metal-head.
I've recently gotten into some thrash metal again, and I've noticed that it's impossible without your thumb in the middle of the back of the neck.
I've noticed my hand posture is very different while playing metal. My thumb is completely perpendicular to the neck, and my fingers are parallel with the frets.
Playing blues/rock/pop/other, my hand is angled. Bends are much easier in this position, but trills/hammer-ons/pull-offs are a little sloppy.
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Post by chuck on Jul 20, 2010 7:02:21 GMT -5
guilty as charged ... i guess nowadays i would be a classic metal head. the " modern "dropped Z flat tuning and cookie monster vocals are not my thing my fret hand angle , guitar angle , and pick hand placement all change to best fit the style i am playing at the moment.
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lynxpilot
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Post by lynxpilot on Dec 10, 2010 22:30:25 GMT -5
I've always heard it was a trademark of Hendrix. In terms of guitar skill (not much else), he was a pioneer.
(embedded the Youtube link)
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frobro808
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Post by frobro808 on Dec 12, 2010 22:35:58 GMT -5
guilty as charged ... i guess nowadays i would be a classic metal head. the " modern "dropped Z flat tuning and cookie monster vocals are not my thing hahahahahhahahahahaha very well put
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Post by ijustwannastrat on Dec 13, 2010 14:58:51 GMT -5
Not sure how I missed "cookie monster vocals" the first time around, but +1. I finally know of a way to describe it
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Post by JFrankParnell on Dec 13, 2010 17:12:02 GMT -5
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Post by Double Yoi on Dec 13, 2010 18:47:26 GMT -5
So the teacher says your wrong for having your thumb over the top of the fret board? How does he play a G,C or D chord in first position without it over the top? His thumb is in the middle of the back of the neck on those 3? I sat down a played a minute and see that my thumb moves from over the top to braced on the back pretty smoothly with all chords and notes fretted "correctly". Whats the problem?
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Post by ijustwannastrat on Dec 14, 2010 16:00:05 GMT -5
It's poor form. I know it, but I just don't give enough of a rip to fix it.
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Post by 4real on Dec 14, 2010 17:54:28 GMT -5
I got a John Mayer Vid cheap the other day... There are plenty of things that you need to play with "correct" technique....but you don't have to look for to find that there are plenty of exceptions to the rule to question that with lots of music... Throw off the "limitations" of "correct technique" and you could easily get to do things like this which makes extensive use of the thumb over fretting style... Not only thumb over, but thumb forward and on an acoustic with a wider neck than your average electric and plenty of stretching too and not 'enormous hands'...any technique that produces the kind of sound and frets the notes you are after is 'legit' and the potential explored...IMHO
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Post by JFrankParnell on Dec 14, 2010 20:29:35 GMT -5
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Post by 4real on Dec 14, 2010 21:25:49 GMT -5
I really don't think you need any special profiles...and any thumb over thing tends to be Hybrid...you have to adjust your technique constantly depending on what you want to play...from chord to chord and lick to lick...the "thumb over' thing is just one more technique you can use...not a replacement for anything.
Personally I tend to play relatively average necks...if I had more of a choice I'd probably go a bit thicker and asymmetric...but unlikely as 'fat' as JB's baseball bat like necks.
I love the feel of my epiphone's acoustic neck...wide and thin...
but on electric...a standard neck is ok...might go a bit wider if I had the choice, rolled over edges are nice...
Too thin and it tends not to work for me...those ibanez 'wizard' trend came about because of that particular shredding style that requires a thumb behind stretchy thing, lots of legato and such...generally very light strings and close action. The thumb over style feels awkward with this kind of thing and can fatigue the hand a bit too I've noticed...at least for me.
I don't do that kind of thing...so I'm looking for a higher action, 10-46 strings, strong stiff neck for sustain and 'body' and tuning stability....a satin finish generally that is not too "sticky" and a feel that for that guitar inspires a certain kind of playing over a different instrument...reason to have multiple instruments!
I really don't even thing "hand size' makes that much of a difference...I have fairly big hands, hendrix had big hands...but there is more to things than that...I've only met a few women whose hands really are 'too small' for an average guitar but even that your average electric is plenty 'skinny' enough.
All it takes is practice to find what works for you to get the sound you are after. If you want to run in a very scalar kind of way...you are going to want to get the thumb placed well behind the neck...many chords are only practical with a 'legit' technique and you should learn it for all kinds of reasons...but the thumb over is equally valid and opens up a lot that can only be done with that technique.
Certainly though, not really a factor of the guitars construction or neck shape...technique comes with hours of work, not from some gee wiz neck design.
In general...why not have a really good look at real players who play in ways that you aspire to and see how they do it and the kinds of instruments they do it on...
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 14, 2010 22:58:23 GMT -5
Well, I don't play guitar, but these guys do.
Wes Montgomery, Charlie Christian, Les Paul, Chet Atkins, Dick Dale, Jimi Hendrix, Rory Gallagher, Frank Zappa, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Jimmy Vaughn, Buddy Guy, Albert King, B.B. King, Freddie King, Albert Collins, Johnny Winter, Kieth Richards, Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Robin Trower, David Gilmour, Peter Green, Syd Barrett, Jimmy Page, Pete Townsend, Martin Barre, Ronnie Montrose, John MacLaughlin, Al DiMeola, Carlos Santana, Adrian Belew, Pat Metheny, Ritchie Blackmore, Frank Marino, Bill Nelson, Gary Hoey, Yngwie Malmsteen, Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, John Petrucci, Steve Stevens, Prince, Paul Gilbert and Eddie VanHalen...to name a few...all play with their thumb over.
For the most part Steve Howe and Allen Holdsworth don't do it all that often....
Joe Pass, Paco de Lucia and Robert Fripp don't...
I apologize if I left your favorite guitar player out but this was the best I could do off the top of my head.
I guess my point is, the guitar makes notes. The musician makes music. If playing with your thumb allows you to play what you feel, then, for God's sake, play with your friggin' thumb over...
Enough said.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by ashcatlt on Dec 14, 2010 23:27:31 GMT -5
How does he play a G,C or D chord in first position without it over the top? His thumb is in the middle of the back of the neck on those 3? How do you play these chords? I don't need my thumb for these. Might be nice with the D, but I usually just don't play one of the the F#'s. I think it's pretty standard to leave out that bottom string. Not that I'm anybody's model of "correct form".
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Post by 4real on Dec 15, 2010 0:02:43 GMT -5
So the teacher says your wrong for having your thumb over the top of the fret board? How does he play a G,C or D chord in first position without it over the top? His thumb is in the middle of the back of the neck on those 3? I sat down a played a minute and see that my thumb moves from over the top to braced on the back pretty smoothly with all chords and notes fretted "correctly". Whats the problem? I think the whole quote implies he is able to move from thumb over to thumb behind smoothly enough...wouldn't be playing a c or g chord particularly with a thumb over technique...neither an A shaped barre chord... I particularly got into it for particular chord voicings and voice leading that I like...for instance... An open A chord can often sound a bit "sour"....but could as easily be replaced with a thumb over A in the 5th position with a sweet sound and lots of possibilities. --0-----------------0-----7---0--------------------------- --2---5---5---5---5-----5---0-------------------------------- --2---6---6---6---6-----6---6-------------------------------- --2---7---7---7---7-----7---7---------------------------------- --0---0--------7------------------------------------------ -----------5---5----5----5----5---------------------------- #1---2---3---4----5----6----7----- #1 open A #2 same notes less doubled lower fifith, more rool and bass separation #3 same as #2 but is a movable form #4 same notes as #1 with a power fifth in the bottom...more control over the bass note damping as fretted. #5 doubles the high e for a jangly faux 12 string effect #6 easy to add 9ths or other extensions like 6ths and sevenths and b or aug 5ths etc. #7 adding a jangly or melodic dissonant added 2nd against the third. There are plenty more and of course other things with different chord forms like this and open strings to add colour Mainly though, all these fit into a kind of "family" of voice leadings and sounds with any chord form and less fatiguing on the hands if you are constantly changing such grips. Built you know...depends a lot on the kind of sound you want to play...these kinds of voicings are only going to be effective with a fairly clean sound...crank up the distortion and you are likely to be wanting roots and fifths and forget about all that thumb over stuff! But if you use a generally clean sound there are heaps of great funk soul and blues things that really lend themselves to this kind of thing for rhythm playing....for really percussive stuff, the thumb over gives you yet another damping technique and when playing loud can be invaluable for keeping those low strings under control to play cleanly. As I say though, check out the players you like for clues...plenty of great players have always used this kind of technique for a reason, it's not just 'sloppy'...on the other hand...you never see a classical player use this technique...horses for courses....
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Post by Double Yoi on Dec 15, 2010 5:08:37 GMT -5
How do you play these chords? I don't need my thumb for these The point I was making was how does one play these first position chords with the thumb bracing in the back. As the teacher is instructing to do. My thumb hangs over or rests on top , bracing with the palm of my hand.
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