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Post by JohnH on Oct 30, 2009 20:24:34 GMT -5
I’m posting this to see if the concept of this switching idea has any appeal: The idea is to take a standard LP or SG wiring, with its two humbuckers, normal four pots and standard toggle, and add one extra toggle to take it from 3 basic sounds up to 16+. The one extra toggle is a 4pdt on-on-on, so its a bit more complex than most, but still just one switch to find a home for. The sound options are based on Jimmy Page, but without the parallel Oop settings. So there’s humbuckers and single coils, in single, parallel, series and series out-of phase combos. I’m not keen on fiddly, flimsy push/pull pots, so this works with standard pots. Coil cuts are done by controlling the tone knobs, since I have found this to work very well in practice. C1 and C4 are the main tone caps, and C5 and C6 are optional, to give a partial bypass, or then can be wire links. I like the partial cap bypass on the bridge and wire link for full coil cut on the neck. In operation, as tone pots are advanced from zero, the tone changes from Hb with treble reduced, to full Hb, to coil cut/bypass for max treble just before 10 on the knob. In the diagram above, s1 is the new switch, and on poles s1a and s1b, the centre position is indicated. As shown, the guitar is switched to standard parallel operation. Clicking s1 to the centre position puts the two pickups with their pot circuitry into series Out-of-phase, overiding s2. Then clicking s1 to the highest position reverses the phase of the bridge pickup, putting the overall sound back in phase with the neck. I particularly wanted the two outer positions of s1 to be in phase, and the less-used Oop setting to be the centre. that is why the basic series switching with s1a and s1b make initially an Oop setting, then this is re-reversed by s1c and s1d. So the sounds are: s1 in 'Parallel' mode - sounds controlled by s2 toggle and tone pots - single humbucker or sc (4 sounds) - parallel combos of Hb's or sc's (4 sounds) s1 in 'Series out of phase' mode - s2 is overiden - out of phase combos of scs or hbs, with blended balancing/mixing using the volume controls (4 basic sounds plus variations) s1 in 'Series in-phase' mode - as above, but in-phase, (4 basic sounds plus variations) Anyway, that’s the idea! cheers John
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Post by newey on Oct 30, 2009 21:22:46 GMT -5
John- I like it a lot! The switch logic is good, eliminating s2 when in ooP mode. Losing the PooP cleans things up a bit and avoids some futzy switching. And ChrisK would approve of your use of the extra lug on the tone pots!
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Post by sumgai on Oct 31, 2009 2:27:53 GMT -5
John,
Where are you planning on procurring those 4P2T (on-on-on) switches? rabidgerry needs one RSN. (I have to do the actual procurring, in order to effect a trade, which is why I'm asking.)
Also, I second newey, that's a real winner!
sumgai
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Post by JohnH on Oct 31, 2009 8:00:22 GMT -5
Thanks for the encouragement. Ive been working on a wiring diagram too. Hooking up that switch will be...."entertaining" shall we say, but feasible.
I havent figured out where to get these switches yet, except its quite likely to be way overseas, so Im interested in any advice on sources in the US.
Before going ahead with such a mod to my LP, I think Ill do a temporary and reversible hard-wired version of the series sounds, to make sure I want them on my rathaer nice '93 Gibson Studio. It already has 4-wire conversion and the tone pot coil cut wiring.
thanks
John
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Post by newey on Oct 31, 2009 9:07:28 GMT -5
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Post by sumgai on Oct 31, 2009 12:54:51 GMT -5
newey, Thanks! ;D I knew that Digi-Key had those things, but they kept refusing to show me the part numbers for the solder-terminal version... all I could get out of them was the PC mount version. Now I can make nice with rabidgerry! (I also note that they have the 3PDT (on-on-on) version as well, which would work just as well for him. Both have been permanently bookmarked. ) +1 for your Google-fu skills! sumgai
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Post by JohnH on Oct 31, 2009 15:12:58 GMT -5
Thanks newey, that digikey link looks like a keeper - and I see that they ship worldwide. I also spotted a few other bits and pieces that I have been looking for, so I can make up a worthwhile order in due course.
cheers
John
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Post by sumgai on Oct 31, 2009 15:37:01 GMT -5
John, Digi-Key does ship worldwide, but make sure that they don't jack up the shipping costs on you. Not that I'm accusing anyone of anything, but that seems to be par for the course. I think you know the drill by now, right? ;D sumgai
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Post by JohnH on Oct 31, 2009 17:01:34 GMT -5
Here is a wiring layout for this beastie: I will make a schematics post too. One thing I need to figure out is how to mount the switch, given that the bush is probably not long enough to get through an LP top and fix with a nut. cheers John
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Post by cynical1 on Oct 31, 2009 19:42:17 GMT -5
One thing I need to figure out is how to mount the switch, given that the bush is probably not long enough to get through an LP top and fix with a nut. This is easier then it sounds. Do you have a router? You can use a 1/2" top bearing router bit, like this one: Clamp two flat pieces of hard wood over the back of the guitar across the control cavity right over the spot where the switch will go, putting masking tape on the body first to prevent scratches and gently remove material until enough thread comes through to mount the switch. Use the blue masking tape as it comes off easier. Something like this you can eyeball, or you can box the area in to make a more precise cut. The boards and the router allow for a nice flat surface to mount the switch to. The whole thing takes around 20 minutes, including re-applying the shielding paint and/or shielding. I've done this dozens of times and it beats doing it by hand with a Dremel tool. Measure twice, cut once. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by JohnH on Oct 31, 2009 20:20:11 GMT -5
Cyn - thanks, that looks like a useful tool. Meanwhile, here is the 'lite' version. By abandoning the out of phase completely, and not worrying about bypassing the toggle switch, a single pole switch can be sued: I just rigged this up. It's really simple and works fine. The single pole toggle is thin, and could be mounted to the under surface of the Les Paul pick guard, no drilling needed. 12 sounds are provided, and they all sound like proper Les Paul sounds. Actually, with the main toggle not bypassed, it can now toggle from series to bridge only. Theres a theoretical 'hanging from hot' issue, but it didn't seem to be a problem, since the whole neck pickup assembly is well shielded. It might be a keeper! The series sounds are well worth having, they are easy to mix with this circuit and whether it is single coils or humbuckers being combined, they all added something to the tonal range available. John
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Post by JohnH on Nov 7, 2009 6:27:38 GMT -5
I’ve been thinking further on this scheme, and decided that the full wiring scheme posted above seems to be a bit over-wrought. It is not as simple as it could be due to the many connections needed between the switch lugs. The control cavity was looking rather crowded. So here’s a different, modular approach to essentially the same circuit. Each pickup, with its volume and tone components forms an independent module, with just two connections to the outside world, and no fixed ground connections. All of the switching is then concentrated into the centre, and with few wires needed, can be taken via multi-core wire to a remote place, such as the upper switch cavity on an LP. The wiring in the control cavity is not significantly different in complexity to a basic scheme, with a 4 core screened wire taking the outputs up to the switch cavity. As a further feature, the same main wiring can then be configured in different ways with regards to switching. Here are four that i’ve worked out: 1. is just a simple series option, which when engaged converts the usual single and parallel toggle setting to bridge only or series. 12 sounds including the coil cuts. 2. adds a phase switch to this, which works in series and parallel, with 20 sounds 3. is as 2, with the feature that the series switch overrides the main toggle 4. uses a 4pdt on-on-on, to give series, series Oop and parallel settings At the moment I’m quite interested in switching scheme 2, using two discreet slide switches mounted behind the guitar on the back of the circular LP switch control cavity cover. It would be easy to build and reversible, with no body drilling needed, and the extra parts are simple. The main toggle continues as the primary control, either acting as normal, or changing from bridge to series sounds. Last night I tried the out of phase sounds on the LP temporarily. With some overdrive they are pretty wild and angry sounding - good fun to have, even though the in-phase sounds are the classics. Cheers John
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Post by newey on Nov 7, 2009 7:19:43 GMT -5
That's a heckuvan idea! Replacement LP switch covers are cheap, so if you tear one or two up trying to mount the switches, it's no big loss.
Might take a bit of practice to learn to switch 'em on the fly, on stage. But all new schemes take some getting used to.
You could also use 2 DPDTs this way to implement version 3, with the override feature.
When you spoke of using a small SPST mounted to the pickguard, I wondered how you were planning to route the wires to it- out the side of the neck HB mounting ring, perhaps? Plus, you might hit it with some serious power chord strumming. This way is much cleaner IMO. "Sanitary", as the hot rodders would say.
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Post by JohnH on Nov 7, 2009 19:56:18 GMT -5
I just built scheme 2 and wired it all into the Gibson Studio.
Yesss!
It works just fine and an easy build too. For stage use, I still have the main toggle which does just as much and more than it did before, so theres still plenty of changes that can be made with a quick flick of it. I see the two rear slide switches more as pre-pro ramming, I don't intend to go back there mid song.
I still have to drill out for mounting the sliders onto the circular cavity cover, but it is going to work, it all fitted, and I'm using full size slide switches so they are nice and positive and robust.
Now Ive got the whole Jimmy Page raft of LP tones, and all it took was $4 worth of extra switches. And 4 years of figuring out schemes for two humbuckers. This is the first wide ranging scheme that I've ever felt happy wiring into my best guitar.
Along the way, I also found that this scheme could be implemented with a 5 or 6 way rotary in place of the toggle and other switches. Theres enough thread to engage the top surface on an LP Studio, because the top is fairly thin at the switch cavity. I almost did that, but I wanted to keep the Gibson toggle because it is a nice simple positive thing to switch.
The thought of putting the switches under the PG is also a possibility on an LP, where it floats above the curved top surface. the toggles or sliders would project sideways out of the gap so they wouldn't get wrongly flicked. An idea maybe to return to another time.
cheers
John
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Post by newey on Nov 7, 2009 20:29:36 GMT -5
Shoot us some pix please, once you get it all done. I'm interested to see that switch installation!
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Post by JohnH on Nov 8, 2009 2:55:00 GMT -5
OK, here's how it worked out: Slider switches behind the upper cavity: Main control wiring: Ready to play: cheers John
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Post by sumgai on Nov 8, 2009 14:28:39 GMT -5
John, My sincere apologies for dropping a +1 on you. Please consider it as a partial payment for your post about the modularized switching schemes. I thank you for that, and my Designing with Modules topic thanks you too. ;D sumgai
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Post by JohnH on Nov 14, 2009 20:10:30 GMT -5
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