Stealth tele with everything

[sumgai]

..... reading of 4real's thoughts on "pre-wire everything outside of the guitar on a piece of cardboard".....

There are times when the screwdriver click test tells you the basic "it works" (or not), but once in awhile I'd like to know more, like what's it sound like. That's when I reach over and grab the old tuning fork. ( ! )

Hold a vibrating fork over a pup when it's connected in series with another pup to see if it's louder (or not), compared to a parallel combination. The click test can't tell you that one (unless you perhaps have Golden Ears....). Equally, you can easily detect if a phase-reversal switch is operating correctly, providing you align the fork over both/all three pickups. To do that with a screwdriver, you'd need either a multimeter or a PC with some simple waveform analysis software.

I'm sure you all can think of other tricks, n'est-ce-pas?

HTH






sumgai

[dannyhill]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the follow up.
Copy that on the use of thinner wire. The wiring I used I bought off of the internet and was advertised as "2MT 22AWG POLY COATED ELECTRIC GUITAR WIRE CABLE". It is thicker than I normally use. I have ordered some thinner stuff so once I get this working I will swap it out. It does say 22AWG on it though.

Re soldering practice, well I don't have a work bench nor magnifying glass with lamp plus some of it was later night. Impatience and tenacity, surely not

Re the taping, I did cover the bridge pup braid and taped over the switch. I remove this to position the pieces when soldering.

Some measurements:

With middle position selected -
Black lead on a jack/shileding/either pot and red lead on the Phase switch middle terminal where the Neck Red (+) wire is connected - 0k ohm - Oops!

Black on tone pot and red on either +ve or -ve wire entering tone switch in middle lugs - 0k ohm - oops!

Contact between any pot and the pickguard's underside (the shielding) - 5.4k ohm - (ok?)

With neck position selected -
Black lead on a pot or jack and red lead on the Phase switch middle terminal where the Neck Red (+) wire is connected - 4.5k ohm (ok?)

Black lead on underside and red lead on the Phase switch middle terminal where the Neck Red (+) wire is connected - 0k ohm (ok?)

black on tone pot and red on either +ve or -ve middle lugs of tone switch (0k ohm or 4.5k Ohm, reversing when I pull out the tone switch) - Great!

Contact between any pot and the pickguard's underside (the shielding) - (ok?)


So switching between neck and middle, changes the resistance between the two neck pup wires from 4.5k ohm as it should be to 0k Ohm. I also see this at the solder points on the neck pup! How does that happen? Dodgy pot?

Note that the -ve or black wire is at zero ohm with the jack at both neck and middle position. The +ve (red in diagram or white in my wiring) goes from 4.5kohm with jack when in neck position to 0k ohm when in middle position. Its as if switching to the middle position places the hot/+ve neck pup at ground! Is there something in the pot switch that connects this lug to another inside where a wire is connected that gets sent to ground, and the neck +ve, when the selector goes from neck to middle?

Incidentally, I have discovered that the black metallic looking neck pickup is actually that, just looking. It is actually of black resin - and the MM shows it is therefore not connected to the cavity shileding by the little wire I placed there. Hours spent wondering how to isolate it! What a dope.

Cheers,

Daniel

[dannyhill]

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllllllppppppppppppppppppp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Its driving me mad.
I get noise cause the circuit is off of the plate, in the neck, bridge and neck-bridge series positions. But in the middle position its like a perfect kill switch, zero noise!
I have replace the tone push pull.
Should I replace the vol push pull?
Newey, just excatly how sure are you that porting a out of phase switching from the bridge to the neck is just as easy as swapping one pup for the other in your diagram?
Bear in mind that whilst one pup is floating (the neck pup), the other is touching the Al foil - I have wrapped all its braid in insulating tape...


Somebody?

Daniel

[newey]

Newey, just excatly how sure are you that porting a out of phase switching from the bridge to the neck is just as easy as swapping one pup for the other in your diagram?

I'm sure.

So switching between neck and middle, changes the resistance between the two neck pup wires from 4.5k ohm as it should be to 0k Ohm. I also see this at the solder points on the neck pup! How does that happen? Dodgy pot?

0KΩ would indicated a dead short somewhere.

OK, first of all, have you checked the connection from the back of your volume pot to ground?. Plug in a cable, one end of the meter goes to the barrel of the plug on the cable. the other end goes to the back of the volume pot. You should read very close to 0Ω

If that checks out, then one of the switches may well be the culprit

The only other thing it might be is the switch. As you know I did go a bit mad with the soldering iron and some solder ran down from two or three contacts. I sucked most of it up and then held it upside down and heated them so any remaining solder ran back down. I took a close up look and it seems fine from what I can see.

I am still suspicious of this. If you've rechecked all the connections, component failure may be the next thing to look at. You would need to disconnect the switch from the pickups and from the circuit to test it with your multimeter. Chart your results. I'm also not sure that we ever definitively checked the internal connections of this switch. Time to do so. The P/P pot on the volume should also be checked while you're at it.

On your diagram on the volume pot p/p you have a black wire going from bottom left lug to the bottom left of the tone p/p. Is that right or is just each are going to a common ground?

Each goes to a common ground, that's represented by the little 3-lined symbol at the bottom. There should be a dot where the two wires join, as all other connections are designated with dots. Other wires which cross each other but are not shown with a dot at the intersection are not connected.

Also please double check that you have output after the phase switch, you should read your neck pup's 4.8K between the ground point and the hot out of the phase switch, after it's disconnected from the 3-way switch.

[dannyhill]

Hi Newey,


"OK, first of all, have you checked the connection from the back of your volume pot to ground?. Plug in a cable, one end of the meter goes to the barrel of the plug on the cable. the other end goes to the back of the volume pot. You should read very close to 0Ω

If that checks out, then one of the switches may well be the culprit."

Back on 0k Ohm.

Not sure how to check the test the three way switch and its internal connections.
I guess just one tip on ground and check resistance of each terminal for each switching position?

Whilst wired I checked the vol p/p, zero ohm between each lug left and middle (both top and bottom), then zero ohm between middle and right for both top and bottom once the p/p is pulled.
I could swap it out like I did for ther tone pot.

"Each goes to a common ground, that's represented by the little 3-lined symbol at the bottom. There should be a dot where the two wires join, as all other connections are designated with dots. Other wires which cross each other but are not shown with a dot at the intersection are not connected."

Ok, well I have the vol pot wire going to the ground on the vol pot casing, and the tone pot wire going to the tone pot casing which itself is connected to the vol pot casing. They measure 0k ohm between them.

"Also please double check that you have output after the phase switch, you should read your neck pup's 4.8K between the ground point and the hot out of the phase switch, after it's disconnected from the 3-way switch."

Will do.

Thanks,

Daniel

[dannyhill]

OK, here goes with the 3 way switch:

There are zero k Ohm connections for:
Bridge - A3 and A0, A3 and B0, A3 and B3, A0 and B0, A0 and B3, B0 and B3.

Middle - A2 and A0, A2 and B0, A2 and B2, A0 and B0, A0 and B2, B0 and B2.

Neck - A1 and A0, A1 and B0, A1 and B1, A0 and B0, A0 and B1, B0 and B1.

Phase question?
I assume you mean the resistance between the green wire and ground? I get 5.5k ohm in phase and out.

Any clearer?

Daniel

[newey]

I assume you mean the resistance between the green wire and ground? I get 5.5k ohm in phase and out.

That's good, at least we know your wiring is good through the phase switch. Now we move "downstream".

There are zero k Ohm connections for:
Bridge - A3 and A0, A3 and B0, A3 and B3, A0 and B0, A0 and B3, B0 and B3.

Middle - A2 and A0, A2 and B0, A2 and B2, A0 and B0, A0 and B2, B0 and B2.

Neck - A1 and A0, A1 and B0, A1 and B1, A0 and B0, A0 and B1, B0 and B1.

I don't know what this means since I don't know how you're numbering the lugs.

To test the switch meaningfully, it needs to be disconnected. If this is like most of these import switches, your lug readout should be

3-2-1-C C-3-2-1

Note that the action of the lever is opposite from the connected lugs. If the lever is to the right hand side of the page as we look at the above, the #3 position would be connected. The red commons connects to the red #3, blue commons to blue #3. The commons themselves should show no connection between the two (i.e., overlimit or infinite resistance on your meter). Also, no connections between any of the red lugs and the blue, each side of the switch should be separate once it's de-wired.

You are testing from lug to lug, not between a lug and ground.

[dannyhill]

Hi Newey,

I have labelled the connections as seen on this webpage for an import 3 way switch:

www.guitarelectronics.com/category/wiring_resources_guitar_wiring_diagrams.wiring_faqs.pickup_switch_cross_reference_diagrams/

In your diagram, you have drawn either a Fender/Oak/Grigsby or USA CRL Brand.

The switch was tested when disconnected, from lug to lug.
Any clearer?

Daniel

[newey]

There are zero k Ohm connections for:
Bridge - A3 and A0, A3 and B0, A3 and B3, A0 and B0, A0 and B3, B0 and B3.

Middle - A2 and A0, A2 and B0, A2 and B2, A0 and B0, A0 and B2, B0 and B2.

Neck - A1 and A0, A1 and B0, A1 and B1, A0 and B0, A0 and B1, B0 and B1.

OK, so we're on the same page, lug-wise. If you're seeing 0Ω between A3 and B0, A3 and B3, A0 and B0 with the switch disconnected, there's a problem. The two sides (i.e., poles) of the switch should not be connected together (once you've totally disconnected it). IOW, no red lug should show 0Ω with any blue lug.

I suspect your solder blob has cooked the innards of the switch. Disassembly and clean up may be possible, but it's probably easier just to replace the switch.

Also be aware that some of these import switches have a tiny thin wire, from the factory, connecting A0 to B0. This is done because in a regular Strat wiring scheme, the poles are usually connected together. In this scheme, however, they need to be separate. I don't see such a connection in your photos, but it can be hard to see sometimes.

Some of these switches may also have an internal connection between the 2 poles (again, requiring a tricky disassembly/reassembly to adapt to this wiring, and again, easier to replace the switch)

Before you give up on this switch entirely, look closely for a tiny wire between A0 and B0. If there is one, disconnect it!
Also, please double check your table of connections above just to be sure, this is just like the old "measure twice, cut once adage"- easier to double-check now than later.

[dannyhill]

OK. Thanks for that.

Three things:
This switch was stock in the tele.
Where should I be looking for this internal wire? Between lugs or on the board?
What is to say if I buy another 3 way it wont have the same wire inside?
Hold up. I've just seen two types of import switches, some with common connections on the board between A0 and B0, and some without. I'll check mine when I get home tonight. If it can be seen from the outside, else it will be a disassemble job.
Cheers,

Daniel

[dannyhill]

Little bit of scalpling and bingo!

Only, those pesky thick wires are making everything cut out when I have to bend wires to bolt stuff onto pickguard.
Have to wait for more wire I gues....
Thanks Newey and everyone for your time and patience.

Daniel

[newey]

Little bit of scalpling and bingo!

Do you mean to say you found a piece of wire and fixed it? Neck now working in parallel?

Inquiring minds want to know!

On to the pickguard issue, which frankly has me a bit mystified, unless as you say, the wires to one or more of the pots are making contact once the pickguard is screwed down.

[dannyhill]

Hi Newey,

Yep, the circuit board had a copper bond pad stretching between the two lugs. It came 'pre-wired', which apparently happens frequently for teles so that less wiring/soldering need occur in manufacture.
I just scrapped away at that pad until they became two.

Pickguard - No, its just down to poor contacts. The tension in the thick wires puts a stress on the joints breaking contacts, although not physically.
I get it to work, I put it in the pickguard, it stops working. I take it off again, stil not working. Fiddle with a few wires and eventually working again.

I just need to wait for some thinner (regular) wire I ordered a few days back, and re-wire and that should be it.
Thanks again,

Daniel

[dannyhill]

OK, so re-wired with thin wire.
Now its nice and stable, only we are back with the same no parallel pups situation. Only this time its noisy/buzzy with some sound from neck in parallel, no bridge. It shows 0k Ohm between neck leads at that setting too. 5.5k ohm in neck position, infinite in bridge position.
Serial is ok. Switch seems to be ok.
I'm getting dizzy with all of the solder smoke!
Ideas?

Cheers,

Daniel

[dannyhill]

solved.
Swapped purple wires around. Doh!

[dannyhill]

Noooooooooooooooooo!!!!!
Now its the neck. Works fine in all other positions.
But as soon as I screw the vol or tone pot into the plate, in the neck position ONLY it cuts out. Prior to that its pretty noisy.
It doesnt seem to be a lose connection, I mean I'm using thin wires and the smallest of movement to touch the pickguard and it cuts out.
Seems more like a bad ground.
In your diagram where you have the botto left lug of each swithc going to the same ground. I have each grounded to their own pot and then the grounded pots joined by a wire (possible ground loop due to both tocuhing same foil on pickguard?).
Or it could be the green wire badly conected?
It would help if you could explain which terminals of the 3 way are connected in each position.

I really want to get this finished before Monday as the family are coming back and it will be days before I can pick it up again.
Help!?!

Daniel

[newey]

In your diagram where you have the botto left lug of each swithc going to the same ground. I have each grounded to their own pot and then the grounded pots joined by a wire (possible ground loop due to both tocuhing same foil on pickguard?).

Either way is equivalent, so long as they get to ground somewhere. Stop worrying about ground loops, that's not the problem.

It would help if you could explain which terminals of the 3 way are connected in each position.

I did, back when we were discussing the switch.

Is it the act of touching the shielding on the underside of the pickguard with the pots that causes it to cut out? Somewhere the neck hot has to be getting grounded if that's happening.

I doubt the green wire has anything to do with it, if that connection was bad you wouldn't be getting any neck pickup at all.

[dannyhill]

OK, ground loops forgotten. (Clutching at straws?)

About the switch, you explained it for a Japaneses import, where I havea regular import i.e. A1 A2 A3 A0 B0 B1 B2 B3
I still don't understand the connections.
So with B0 and A0 no longer connected I should now get:
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Re: Stealth tele with everything
« Reply #65 on Nov 10, 2011, 4:44am »

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OK, here goes with the 3 way switch:

There are zero k Ohm connections for:
Bridge - A3 and A0, B0 and B3.
Middle - A2 and A0, B0 and B2.
Neck - A1 and A0, B0 and B1.

Still can't get my head around the connections.
Maybe the wire going to B1 should be going to A1 instead? There is nothing connected to A1 at the moment and in the neck position it is shorted to the common on that side, A0.


"Is it the act of touching the shielding on the underside of the pickguard with the pots that causes it to cut out? Somewhere the neck hot has to be getting grounded if that's happening."

Yes, sorry. I thought my last message was clear.
Yes, on the neck hot getting grounded. But where?
Its obviously a connection that only comes into play when the neck only position is selected.

[dannyhill]

Just spotted something.
Twiddling the tone pot, it didn't go through its full track.
Too much solder being flicked about I guess.
Would that have done it? Solder from the ground connecting with the carbon track?
In any case it is all scractchy now so I will swap it out.
Cheers,
Daniel

[newey]

Your switch, now that you have disconnected the two poles, works as it should.

3-2-1-C C-3-2-1

"C" stands for "common" lugs (often called "pole" lugs with a "P"). You have them as "0"; doesn't matter what we call them.

Remember the lever position is opposite of the lugs that are connected. If we were looking at the switch from the side, lined up with the above diagram, the #3 lugs would be connected when the lever was all the way to the right.

If we then call "lever to the right as shown on the diagram" to be "bridge position" (in that the lever is towards the bridge as mounted in your guitar), then your bridge pickup should be connected to #3.

The numbering of the lugs on these things is arbitrary, even Fender isn't consistent on whether the bridge is "position 1" or "position 3" on their own diagrams, and everyone else is all over the map as well. I've tried to have everyone on this forum be consistent and call the Bridge position as #1, neck as #3 (or position #5 on a Strat-type 5-way switch), but it's a losing battle so I've given up trying. It just means some more long-winded explanations to make sure we're all on the same page, lug wise.

So, lever to the right, Red #1 connects to Red C, Blue #1 to Blue C
Lever in the middle, it's Red #2 to Red C, Blue #2 to Blue C

Lever to the left, Red #3 to Red C, Blue #2 to Blue C.

There isn't supposed to be anything connected to that #1 lug. Your diagram looked ok, as translated from mine, but let me check it again.

The reason that both pickups are connected at #3 (both lugs used at #3) and not at #1 has to do with the "series chain" and an effort to avoid having the pickup which is connected to "hot" left "hanging from hot" when it's disconnected. We don't have that problem with the other pickup, since it's left hanging from the ground when disconnected.

By connecting both pickups at #3, the one is connected back to the "hot" output at both ends. This (in theory) should be less noisy than leaving it hang from the hot line when disconnected.

Now, if you didn't wire that to the correct side of the switch, it could be the cause of your problems- again, let me double check your diagram, but also double check your rewire job. Be careful that you haven't transposed #1 for #3 on the switch.

[dannyhill]

Hi Newey,

No more scratching when I turn the tone pot. Mind you the volume pot isn't perfect. Its all this soldering and re-soldering. Anyway I've ordered some more A500k P/P.

With insulation tape I get lovely noise-free neck pup, but as soon as I touch a pot to adjust volume/tone I ground them and so there is a 'plop'. Besides the S/N is worse in that position than the other two, so it can't stay like that. Need to find the fault.

The switch? In the 'neck position' i.e. looking from top of guitar lever points towards the neck, on my import switch diagram, the lever is pointing towards the 'A's.

I don't understand all this red and blue stuff. The diagrams I sent you are all labelled A or B.
Which is A for you and which is B? Red is A and B is blue, or the other way around?

I don't understand, you say lever to right is bridge position and #3 is connected, then later you say "lever to the right, Red #1 connects to Red C, Blue #1 to Blue C". ?

"Now, if you didn't wire that to the correct side of the switch, it could be the cause of your problems- again, let me double check your diagram, but also double check your rewire job. Be careful that you haven't transposed #1 for #3 on the switch."

Wire what?
My head is spinning with all of this.
Can you not just go with my nomenclature. I can't even think straight anymore.
I have soldered as I have shown in the diagram, bridge hots on A3 and B3. Lower left lug of vol p/p to B1.

Now I remember that earlier I switched the wire at B1 to A1 and the bridge and neck swapped around. As did the problem. The bridge was now cutting out on the pots contacting the shielded pickguard.
That any help?

Cheers,

Daniel

[newey]

I don't understand, you say lever to right is bridge position and #3 is connected, then later you say "lever to the right, Red #1 connects to Red C, Blue #1 to Blue C". ?

Yeah, poor proofreading on my part. It should say "lever to the right, red #3 connects . ." (instead of #1)

It doesn't matter what you call the two poles, I used red and blue but "A' and "B" are fine, too. The switch is symmetric, so you can wire it either way around- so long as you don't wire things from one pole to the other.

Now I remember that earlier I switched the wire at B1 to A1 and the bridge and neck swapped around. As did the problem. The bridge was now cutting out on the pots contacting the shielded pickguard.That any help?

Yes that's a major clue.

[dannyhill]

And?

[newey]

Now I remember that earlier I switched the wire at B1 to A1 and the bridge and neck swapped around. As did the problem. The bridge was now cutting out on the pots contacting the shielded pickguard.
That any help?

Was this before or after you separated the two poles? If afterward, it should not have reversed the N and B pickups unless you also reversed the connections to the commons (what you call "O"s).

Your diagram is correct. Please verify that you are now wired according to the diagram, with no alterations from what you have posted.

If so, then we're back to a bad connection at position #1. I'm mystified here now, so the only suggestion I have is to ask you to prevent the pot shells from contacting the shielding, either by removing foil or isolating it with electrical tape, to see if that makes a difference. Are we sure it's the pot shells and not the 3-way switch body that causes the problem? Is the switch installed when this happens?

[dannyhill]

Before/after I separated the two poles?
I don't understand. But I will go and try it again as it is now. Wired as in the diagram.

"the only suggestion I have is to ask you to prevent the pot shells from contacting the shielding, either by removing foil or isolating it with electrical tape, to see if that makes a difference. Are we sure it's the pot shells and not the 3-way switch body that causes the problem? Is the switch installed when this happens?"

Thats what I said before. I did that and no noise, BUT, when I touch the controls I end up grounding them (click when I touch them).
The switch is installed when this happens, I will try it without being installed. BTW The switch is only connected to ground via the foil, it does not have its own ground wire connecting it to the vol pot aside from the connection at B1, or blue 1).

Cheers,

Daniel

[newey]

I did that and no noise, BUT, when I touch the controls I end up grounding them (click when I touch them).
The switch is installed when this happens, I will try it without being installed. BTW The switch is only connected to ground via the foil, it does not have its own ground wire connecting it to the vol pot aside from the connection at B1, or blue 1).

Did the neck pickup work, however, when you did this? Let's focus on getting everything working correctly, that'll likely take care of any noise issues, if not, we'll focus on that later.

[dannyhill]

Hi Newey,

Yes the neck PUP still worked.
Makes no difference whether switch is screwed to foil on pickguard or not.

When I tap the neck poles gently with a screwdriver their tone becomes flatter when I touch one of the pots.

Oh, and the neck pup is definitely noiser inneck positon than in parallel position.
Cheers,

Daniel

[dannyhill]

Maybe the B1 wire should go to the tone pot p/p ground?
Or maybe it should go to A1 and not B1.
Will try that.
Getting desperate. Its 21h here and so have just a few hours left to work on this.......

[newey]

I'm flat out of suggestions, although you should try re-grounding the bridge/string ground if there's a difference touching the parts.

[dannyhill]

I tried taking the wire to B1 and put it to A1. Neck was the same as before, but I had bridge and neck in bridge position.
Figures?