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Post by dannyhill on Nov 13, 2011 15:41:48 GMT -5
In neck position (fully wired) -
Multimeter says:
5.5k ohm between jack ground and foil on pickguard.
5.5k ohm between jack ground and bridge pup casing or bridge braid at B0.
0k Ohm between A0 and A3, A0 and A2, A0 and B0, A0 and B3
infinite between A0 and B1, A0 and B2,
Bad switch? I guess I could de-wire and test in case all this soldering has done something since last time it was tested.
Damaged vol pot?
Would it make a difference if I removed foil on the pickguard close to the bridge pup?
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 13, 2011 15:48:12 GMT -5
I dont touch the other parts: bridge etc. They are not connected, only when pickguard foil contacts the copper in the body where bridge is wired to. So no problem there. More multimeter: between foil and switch terminals, 0k Ohm for all except B1 and B2 that each show 5.5k ohm to it.  ? Which connection should I be testing? |
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 13, 2011 17:30:07 GMT -5
Ideas:
Just wondered if it would help if all the grounds were the same, I mean directly wire each ground to the volume pot and not have the tone pot grounded? And to be grounded at same spot and not just on another part of the pot?
Should there be a difference that the bridge pot -ve is always connected to ground and the neck is never connected to ground?
As it is the neck is noisier and there is the grounding when I touch the pots, but they are connected and one has the jack ground soldered to it. Can they be connected to a hot?
0k Ohm between pots and jack ground when insulated.
The foil is connected to a pup +ve as it shows 5.5k ohm between it and jack ground. Right?
Plus they cut out when they touch the foil IF I dont use the insulation tape with 0k Ohm seen between jack plug and foil.
There is always 0k Ohm between the jack ground and pots though.
Finally I checked the foil when nothing was mounted on the pickguard except the bridge PUP. Between the foil and the jack ground it showed 5.5k Ohm! Shouldn't there always be 0k Ohm between the bridge ground and the jack ground?
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 13, 2011 17:51:09 GMT -5
Not to jump in at the last minute, but have you considered star grounding versus grounding to the pots? Cold solder joints, overheating the pot etc are all things that can be avoided with a star ground scheme
Troubleshooting intermittent electrical problems are tricky when you have the device in front of you. Trying to do it from an Internet forum is almost impossible.
Testing the individual components is starting to sound like an inevitability at this point.
I understand how frustrating it can be to track down a problem like this, but a process of elimination needs to take place to rule out bad pots, switches or pickups.
Then slowly reassemble the build checking your work along the way for faults. Not a lot of fun, but once the guitar is working its all just a bad memory.
Good luck.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 13, 2011 18:04:12 GMT -5
Mr Cynical1,
What you say is true. I have another build with star grounding on a strat to do, plus a pup to swap out on a Dano.
The past 7 days I must have spent over 70 hours on this.
Time I don't have, work, household jobs, other responsibilites, hobbies etc. On Wednesday the family comes back and it could be weeks until I have enough time undistrubed to try again.
Sure I learned alot, and your words are very wise.
But it has been very, very frustrating.
D
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Post by newey on Nov 13, 2011 18:08:45 GMT -5
Yep, or at most a handful of Ohms, 10 or 20 at most. Not 5500!
As we've surmised before, somewhere a hot line is hitting something it shouldn't.
As I said, without being able to physically see the guitar there's not much more I can do from afar.
Realistically, if I were you I'd rewire the whole thing, testing each component once it's out of the circuit. And perhaps lose the foil around the pots, switches etc. Test each module as you go along.
If you show OΩ between two points, then they're connected as well as they're going to get.
That's what it seems like to me, too.
Now, the testing doesn't mean much with things wired up. You said:
But I don't know what position you had the switch in while testing.
EDIT: Walked away before posting this to run an errand, and cyn1 has essentially advised the same as I am- a redo with checking everything.
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 13, 2011 18:16:04 GMT -5
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Post by newey on Nov 13, 2011 18:33:44 GMT -5
Both are pretty much the same as this, although the one version uses a three-way gibby toggle instead of a tele switch.
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 13, 2011 19:10:33 GMT -5
I took another wire from the left lower lug of the vol p/p and taped it to the pickguard. No more noise, no more pop on touching pots.
Neck pup seems weaker though.
Shortly after starting to play, it started to cut out, each time I could 're-animate it' by touching the bridge PUP casing which seemed to ground it. How on earth is the bridge pup casing not grounded?
Then it just died totally. Maybe the tape came lose? Maybe another solder point broke.
Well, thats all from me until at least Thursday.
Please, if you have any ideas, do share them
I thank you all, especially you Newey for your time and patience.
Cheers and goodnight.
Daniel
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 25, 2011 20:44:27 GMT -5
Hi everyone,
Wife is out for the evening and child in bed.
Ok, so swapped out the volume push pull for a new one. Nice new wiring everywhere. Checked switch, that is ok.
Now with the pushpulls screwed to the plate I get no serial in middle position, nor neck in neck position. How many weeks have I been on this? Has anyone achieved this mod yet to verify the diagram?
Of course when I unscrew the pots from the plate it all works.
When I put everything back in and screwed the pickguard down with insulation tape between the pots and the foil on the pickguard I got all combinations BUT everything in the neck position was VERY noisy as was the middle/serial position. It was noisier still when I touched the strings, pups etc. Occassionaly in switching to the middle position there would be noise until I waggled the switch and then ok.
I'm going to go back and insulate stuff in case there are hot wires touching the grounded cavity and/or pickguard. Plus scrape away the foil away froum around the pups.
Looking forward to some much needed help.
Cheers,
Daniel
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 26, 2011 16:35:42 GMT -5
Nothing like consistency! Almost there! I put in a new socket wire and swapped out a bad pushpull (too much poking around and stress from constant changes broke a switch lug) and all seems to be working except the PUPs give me a lot of noise when I touch them. But not all the time and not necessarily when I have switched to that pup. E.g. The bridge will buzz when I am in neck position, the bridge doesnt all buzz in the middle position. |
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 26, 2011 16:50:35 GMT -5
Something is shorting out somewhere. Taking some electrical tape and a pair of scissors and completely covering your copper shielding with tape may eliminate that as an issue.
You can also tape over any soldered connections so no exposed wire\metal can be seen.
Part of your problem is trying to wedge so much into such a small cavity.
Once you have everything isolated with the tape, and it still makes noise...well, let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
HTC1
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 26, 2011 17:55:24 GMT -5
Hi Cynical1,
No I'm getting it with the guard off of the guitar.
It has to be a bad solder joint, or worse case scenario wire gone bad.
I seem to be converging on the goal, but this has been a long a hugely time consuming exercise.
Cheers,
D
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 26, 2011 20:25:02 GMT -5
I went back and covered with foil up to the bridge pup shell. Great no noise on the pups, this time no neck in serial/middle and neck AND bridge in neck positon. WTF?  Most of another weekend wasted. How can it be so difficult? I still think there is something about this diagram that doesnt work for my guitar. |
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Post by newey on Nov 26, 2011 20:47:36 GMT -5
DH-
You said earlier:
If this is the case, then there's nothing wrong with the diagram. You're still having a problem with something touching somewhere it shouldn't once it's assembled.
Apart from swapping out the one P/P, did you go back and check all components when out of circuit and rewire it from the beginning? I know that's not much help, but from afar it's all we've got at this point.
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 26, 2011 20:59:02 GMT -5
Well I think it worked, mostly. Checked all. Re-wired. So many things can break, lose contact, go bad, pull etc when inspecting and reassembling. its 10 steps forward 8 steps back.
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 26, 2011 21:58:51 GMT -5
4am, I guess I better call it a night.
This is taking over my life!
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 27, 2011 5:16:18 GMT -5
Re my message of:
"I went back and covered with foil up to the bridge pup shell. Great no noise on the pups, this time no neck in serial/middle and neck AND bridge in neck positon."
That wasn't true. I didnt have the position collector all the way into the neck position. (Switch probably needs eventual replacement)
It should have read:
No neck in serial/middle.
No neck in neck positon.
Changing neck phase does not bring it back in.
So what is happening here?
Why does neck only work in parallel?
Can you identify what wiring I should check.
This is my problem. Everytime I have to go through and re-check the lot which normally means finding the fault, correcting it and then making another as I do it or re-assemble etc.
My guess is the brown wire, or the ground coming off of the same p/p lug.
Could it be the green? Although that is for both mid and neck positions and the middle position works fine in parallel.
I will swap out the first two wires and re-solder. Then if necessary try the green. Fingers crossed I don't wreck something else while I am doing that.
Just so we are clear here. I have the -ve from the bridge (black wire going to common on RHS, or B0) in contact with the pickguard so that is ALWAYS grounded. I guess that doesn't change anything?
Cheers,
Daniel
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Post by newey on Nov 27, 2011 8:23:50 GMT -5
That's at the parallel end of the switch. The series connection depends upon the two blue wires, and upon the jumper across the top two switch lugs.
That's 4 connections to test. Most of the checking can (and should) be done with your meter. Basically, just check for signal path (continuity) from one of the #2 lugs to the other with the switch set to series. Then work your way back if needed.
You also said:
That's now one P/P pot that was bad and "probably" the switch as well. On several occasions, I have urged you to specifically test those components, and Cynical1 suggested the same. It is not clear that you have ever done so.
You seem to be proceeding in a very "hit or miss" fashion, and getting understandably frustrated as you spend lots of time and energy but don't find the solution. The way out of this vicious circle is to become more methodical.
This circuit is constructed (as all are) from a series of modules. In your case, you have one module made up of the neck pickup and its phase switch, another made up of the pickup selector switch and the series/parallel switch, and the volume and tone controls form a third module.
Now, those designations are somewhat arbitrary, we could just as easily say that the pickup selector and the series/parallel switch are separate modules, or that the neck pickup is separate from its phase switch. Usually, when two components are closely interconnected in several ways, it's more usefule to talk of them as a single module; where it's just a pair of wires in or out, it's a separate module. But none of that is written in concrete.
But for your purposes, we'll call it 3 modules.
Now, if you have output in some positions, and when you do, the volume and tone controls work properly, then the third module is known to be OK and can safely be disregarded. You should disconnect that module and put it aside for now. (I mean to mentally "put it aside", no need to physically remove it.).
Next, disconnect the neck pup and phase switch module. This is also unlikely to be the problem, but once it's disconnected from the rest of the switching it can be double-checked with the meter just to be sure. In addition to checking it with the meter, check for any stray wires or solder blobs that might be shorting things once it's installed. If you can wrap the whole shebang in electrical tape and still fit it into the cavity, so much the better.
Now we're down to the 3rd module, the likely source of your issues. As before, I would urge you to disconnected everything in this module. Test both switches with your meter. Then begin to rewire, checking after each connection you make. Wire the whole module together before you connect it to the other modules. Then test the whole module before proceeding to wire it in with the rest of the guitar.
Since at least some portion of this problem seems related to something contacting shielding once everything is installed, I also think you should remove the shielding from the control cavity entirely for now. Just make sure the shielding from the pickup cavities gets grounded if you were relying on contact with the cavity shielding to do that. There is little point in worrying about noise if the guitar doesn't work right in the first place.
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 27, 2011 9:18:01 GMT -5
"The series connection depends upon the two blue wires, and upon the jumper across the top two switch lugs."
Will that also affect the neck position?
"That's now one P/P pot that was bad and "probably" the switch as well. On several occasions, I have urged you to specifically test those components, and Cynical1 suggested the same. It is not clear that you have ever done so."
So far I have used 5 P/Ps and still awaiting a new switch. But I tested all replacements and the switch and they all worked fine before I started 'handling them'. p/p switch lugs came loose on two due to tension in wires from twisting to place pots in guard or to get all the wires to fit into the cavity, and solder entered another pot.
Very happy to go with the modular way. As a physicist my mind works better like that but I needed to have the modules identified firstly. I'm still coming to terms with how all the contacts and switches work, changing resistance paths and tensions.
The problem I have is that almost everytime I change something and I damage something else, although I am getting better at it.
Just so you know I have a one piece pickguard with switch, pots and bridge pup all mounted on it. Simarly the cavities run from the controls to the bridge pup cavity and on to the neck pup cavity. One BIG cavity, so they are all linked by copper tape.
In order to not tempt fate I shall just remove the purple wires and push/pull wire (across back two lugs) and try that, if not I shall remove the whole switch (again) and the vol p/p (again) desolder all, check continuities and then resolder with new wires (again).
Doesn't help have bassplayers fingers.
Appreciate all your help.
Cheers,
D
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Post by newey on Nov 27, 2011 11:57:17 GMT -5
No, the neck position may be a separate problem. Are you sure it is the series setting that isn't working?
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 27, 2011 16:25:14 GMT -5
Nothing is working now, and although I re-soldered the +ve to the jack still zip. Gotta be one of the two red wires next to it I guess.... |
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 27, 2011 17:48:36 GMT -5
OK, so it was one of the reds.
Now I'm back to where I was before I dissasembled the switch and volume p/p and then re-assembled some with new wire.
All sounds but no neck in serial/middle and no neck in neck position.
When I previously examined the switch I saw that in soldering I overheated the switch and the ballbearing and melted a little the plastic that it guides when switching, so maybe the contacts aren't going all the way around for the neck position. MAYBE, as its in each position I still get continuity between two pairs of lugs as we spoke about before.
But still doesnt explain the serial position.
Now, when the pots are off of the pickguard - everything worked, less defined and noisier I think.
Now, when I tried before to isolate the pots the other day the bridge pup became noisy. So I put the pots back in and then started to unscrew the bridge pup to see how were the sounds without the bridge pup touching the foil on the guard in case that was grounding the neck in those two positions. Obviously, and not for the first time, I broke a contact and so nothing when the pup was out not back in. Just found the fault (I think) and will try to fix that before trying to remove the bridge pup again.
Not sure if I asked earlier, but do you see a problem with the bridge pup -ve being permanently grounded? To cause what is happening now?
D
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Post by newey on Nov 27, 2011 18:20:37 GMT -5
I don't know what "-ve" means. One end of your bridge pickup is permanently grounded as shown on your diagram.
If you are showing continuity between each of the commons on your switch, and their respective 1,2, and 3 lugs, then your switch is fine. Again, this must be tested with the switch de-wired.
You seem to be having rather extraordinary problems with connections pulling loose and P/P pots going bad. While not a simple wiring scheme, I can't imagine this much trouble with fitting this into the cavity unless you are using very thick wire.
As I said before, there's not much more help that any of us can give you without having the guitar laid out in front of us. The diagram you are working from is fine, and has been vetted by several people although you are perhaps the first to actually attempt to build it.
Perhaps your best bet at this point is to chalk it up as a failure for whatever reason, and eliminate the series/parallel switch, since that seems to be giving you all the trouble.
Sorry that I can't be more help to you, but I'm fresh out of any more troubleshooting suggestions.
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 27, 2011 19:14:46 GMT -5
Hi Newey,
+ve is the hot, -ve is the other (usually grounded).
Well I managed to get it working, at least with the bridge pup out and the pots out, as far as I could tell as I can just screwdriver tap the poles.
Of course putting it all back together to test with the pots in I managed to break connections.
In a few places I have been using some pull back wire but it seems a little thicker and stiffer than the stuff that comes with the wires. I have now swapped it over for some nice thin wire like the rest.
Re-solder and try again.
BTW The continuity of the switch was checked with it fully desoldered. As I did with the P/Ps.
I'm not very good at failures. I'm determined come what way that this will work.
Cheers,
D
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 27, 2011 19:45:56 GMT -5
FINALLY back on the pickguard.
All working. Now we try the bridge pup back on it.
If it now stops working, not due to wire failure, it has to be due to an undesired continuity between the pot grounds and the bridge pup. So just scratch away a line of foil to separate the 3 controls from the bridge pup as far as I can see.
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 27, 2011 20:19:09 GMT -5
It did stop. So I scraped away and foil between the switch/pots and bridge PUP, and it all roared back into life!
Screwed everything back on and .... blast (back to no neck in serial nor neck position)! Must be some copper tape around the rim joining the two pieces of foil conductively? Or maybe its the continuity of the copper foil down inside the cavities of the controls and the pup?
At least I now the know the likely suspects for cutouts when I remove the guard again to strip away copper foil in strategic places.
Please think about it for me, my brain is fried. Bed....
Another day......
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Post by newey on Nov 27, 2011 22:27:21 GMT -5
As Cyn pointed out, with HBs not much to worry about, noise-wise. I'd lose the shielding altogether, see what you get.
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Post by dannyhill on Nov 28, 2011 4:56:01 GMT -5
Hi Newey,
Actually I'm not using HBs. I have one strat PUP w/out shielding (2 wires + and -) and one HB sized single coil with shielding (+ and -/shielding).
What I will try tonight:
Lift the guard, see if all positions come back to life.
(a) If they do then it is probably that copper cavity lip bridging the control guard foil area and the bridge pup foil area. So then remove that copper, screw the guard back down again and see what happens.
(i) if Ok, then job's a good'un.
(ii) if no, then maybe its something shorting against the cavity copper or guard Al foil when I screw the guard down (switch, bolts that hold bridge pup to guard?). But this would be one heck of a coincidence, giving the same syptoms as when there was continuity across the whole of the pickguard (incidentally, was the problem here a ground loop or the fat bridge pup casing looking like a better ground than the vol pot with its connection to the jack? I did seem to get intermittent problems before I separated the two Al foil zones on the guard, like as if charge was accumulating somewhere before discharged. Or maybe the ground wire is poor from the bridge pup and so needs to rely on contact with the Al foil?).
(b) If not then perhaps I broke a connection pushing the guard back down.
A few final things:
(1) I noticed where the copper contacts the Al foil on the pickguard that I got galvanic corrosion. Apparently I should apply solder there to avoid that. Currently its messy (green dust) but doesnt affect resistance of contact.
(2) I copper taped the neck cavity several months back and now it has oxidised. In fact, I'm not sure it makes a good ohmic contact with the rest of the copper which runs through to the bridge pup cavity and into the control cavity. Might be worth soldering a few of the joints?
(3) I might remove the tape around the holes in the cavity where the screws from the neck pup enter to make sure it really is floating. I have in mind when I get this all sorted out to suspend this from the guard by drilling a couple of holes for the bolts once I'm confident about everything working 100%.
Cheers,
D
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Post by newey on Nov 28, 2011 6:33:15 GMT -5
That's a possibility. A ground loop could possibly cause some noise, but wouldn't result in any intermittent signal.
No part of your signal should be transmitted through any shielding.
You won't be able to solder to the aluminum foil. Don't bother trying.
Check it first, before you start flinging more solder around. 0Ω is 0Ω Actually, even 10Ω is OK, a few Ohms doesn't matter.
(
I don't know what you mean by this. Is this where you are using the HB sized single? If so, have you ensured that the cover of that pup is not tied to ground (that is, if it has a separate shield, the shield should be tied to the cover, but not the signal ground)?
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