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Post by jontwentytwelve on Nov 5, 2009 9:16:56 GMT -5
Hello there, First a quick introduction, i'm new to the forum. I build and repair guitars in Melbourne, Aus and must admit that i've never got terribly adventurous with wiring mods as so many i've tried have been, well, interesting ideas but never something i've found to be particularly useable soundwise.
There seem to be plenty of incredible looking schematics im keen to try but i have one small issue which brings me here in the first place (thanks JohnH for the referral from projectguitar)
I have a customers Suhr strat in for some new pickups and a couple mods, It has 3x single coil pickups, a 5 way superswitch and 1 vol 1 tone. The customer wants the two pots replaced with push/pulls and the volume when pulled to give the bridge and neck at once (which is no problem) but for the tone pot wants it (when pulled) to give the bridge and middle in series. This is where i'm having trouble, i've seen diagrams on here that tell how to give all pickups in series etc (the s-tastic looks like something to try) but i'm just not following how to apply just a part of that diagram to my current project.
If someone could give me the most simplified diagram of how to get this working as requested, or if its not even possible without the addition of more switches/etc. The customer is very specific that he wants it to act like a normal strat switch with both pots down.
Sorry for the rant. Any replies or insight will be greatly appreciated.
Cheers, Jon.
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Post by newey on Nov 5, 2009 10:24:05 GMT -5
Jon2012:
Hello and Welcome!
You indicated that this particular guitar has a 5-way Superswitch. How is it wired now? Is there perhaps an unused pole?
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Post by jontwentytwelve on Nov 5, 2009 10:53:31 GMT -5
Hi newey, there are a couple unused poles but I'm a little unsure of their function. i can't find any suhr wiring diagrams anywhere either. It was something i haven't encountered before, different value caps for each pickup and then fed off to a master tone. Not sure if these pictures help at all. In the morning i can try and draw up a diagram. Any insight is appreciated.
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Post by newey on Nov 5, 2009 11:44:06 GMT -5
Jon-
No, the pix don't help much. While there are unused lugs on some of the poles, it looks like all 4 poles are wired. But I'm not clear on what they're all being used to do.
Using different caps for each pickup sounds like a form of ChrisK's pickup coil response tuning (article is in our reference section). But that should only require one pole of the superswitch to do. One pole has to switch the pickups. With a regular Strat 2-tone control set-up, a pole is used to switch the neck and mid tone controls, but this has a master tone so no switching of tone controls is required.
So, unless there's more going on with this switch than switching some caps in/out, I don't see where 4 poles need to be used.
My thinking is that a spare pole on the superswitch could be used to switch the series/parallel p/p in/out.
This raises another question. Does your customer want both of these push/pulls to override the 5-way switch? IOW, would pulling on the series/parallel switch always give the Br * Mid regardless of where the 5-way switch was set?
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Post by jontwentytwelve on Nov 5, 2009 11:51:36 GMT -5
I think an override would be more than fine (im guessing that would be easier?).
Even if series function wasn't coming from the switch is there an easy way using a p/p pot to simply activate the "series bridge/middle" option and bypass the switch or something?
thanks again.
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Post by JohnH on Nov 5, 2009 19:54:54 GMT -5
Hi Jon - welcome here.
I think we' ll need to find a schematic of the current wiring first. That superswitch, if currently used for just 5 sounds, is quite heavy artillery. Does it currently do more than just the standard Strat settings?
Im fairly confident that something suitable can be contrived with one more two pole push/pull or toggle switch, given we work out what we are starting with. cheers John
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Post by jontwentytwelve on Nov 5, 2009 20:40:41 GMT -5
Hi John, I've drawn up (very poorly) a diagram of the schematics when the guitar arrived. when the customer brought the guitar in it didn't have strings on and i haven't actually heard it through an amp but it doesn't seem like there is any strange pickup selections but it does appear that the tone knob really isn't doing anything (sounds like tone is totally wound back) when plugging into an amp and tapping the pole pieces. www.twentytwelveguitars.com/suhrdrawing.jpgthere is now a push pull on vol and tone but nothing wired to them. if its possible to use a push/pull only on the tone to get the functions previously mentioned that would be ideal but whatever it takes is fine. Hope you can decifer my drawing! thanks.
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Post by newey on Nov 5, 2009 20:53:53 GMT -5
Are you sure that you haven't transposed the mid hot and neck hot wires on your diagram from what's in the guitar?
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Post by jontwentytwelve on Nov 5, 2009 22:24:41 GMT -5
Sorry you are correct, didn't follow them back to their source properly. reverse where mid and neck hit the switch.
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Post by sumgai on Nov 5, 2009 22:57:07 GMT -5
There's more than a Neck and Mid "hot" swap going on here..... Getting the housekeeping chores out of the way.... Jon, hi, and to the NutzHouse! My first though at seeing the photos was "what's a 220KΩ resistor doing there, going to ground like that?" The drawing confirms it by showing a red-red-yellow-yellow-gold resistor is wired between the Neck 'hot' (perhaps should be the Middle 'hot'?) and ground - that's wansinig.* This pickup will be forever lower in volume, and muddy as all get-out. The lower-left of the four poles implements a Kill Switch in the far-right position. The Bridge alone will never be heard. Each tone cap is shown as 0.47µf - ugh! That's about 10 times too high, so we might (repeat, might) assume a simple decimal error here. But if not, then this explains the darkness, and why the Tone control can't bring in any brightness. The tone capacitors are successive, or wired in series, for the far-left combo (Shows Mid only, but shouldn't it be Neck only?). Remember that caps in series don't add like resistors, they divide. Thus, two 0.47 units will amount to 0.235µf. Still not a very good value, given the above premise about decimal points. Then you combine that large capacitance in parallel with the aforementioned 220K resistor going to ground at all times, and you have a slick recipe for Guaranteed Tone Suck! All in all, this puppy didn't leave the factory wired like that!!! Suhr has a good reputation for toneful guitars, and scrupulous detailing. Even though a bit fuzzy, the photos show signs of ham-fistedness - I'd guess that's probably not what we find inside a factory-fresh unit from Suhr. Jon, this thing needs a complete re-wire. Are you up to taking it all down to the bare terminals? And if so, then we have plenty of suggestions about what circuitry you might consider. Everything you've asked for has already been done here in the NutzHouse (and on other websites too, but we won't mention that, will we? ). Ding, the ball's in your court! ;D HTH sumgai * Literally, in German it means demented. They use it colloquially to mean "that's both crazy and retarded".
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Post by JohnH on Nov 5, 2009 23:24:45 GMT -5
I agree with Sumgai. As the Irishman said when asked the way to Dublin "to be sure..(irishman are supposed to say that).... this is the wrong place to start from!.."
But, given a superswitch and a push/pull, there are schemes here that will blow away what ever the wirer of that guitar was intending. The Mike Richardson Mod comes to mind.
John
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Post by jontwentytwelve on Nov 6, 2009 0:36:31 GMT -5
Thanks very much for your responses there. Look i know the customer quite well and know he wouldn't have touched it, but hes really not much of a player, more collector and doesn't have much of an ear for tone, didn't tell me the guitar sounded as muddy as i imagine it would in its current state.
i'm more than willing to do a complete rewire, as i said i've never heard this guitar in action, but i'm more than up for a rewire if there was an appropriate diagram to follow. i'm really unfamiliar with super switches but im more than capable of following instructions!
If someone could link me to a diagram (as i said i can't really read schematics) that i could follow for this (or a similar) setup i'd be forever greatful. I have had a look at some of the other mods on here but most include additional switches which the customer really doesn't want.
thanks guys, once again really do appreciate the time you've taken to respond here.
jon.
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Post by jontwentytwelve on Nov 6, 2009 0:44:46 GMT -5
the mike richardson mod looks great but we're only working with one vol. one tone so i wouldn't know how to modify that to suit what i have to work with.
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Post by sumgai on Nov 6, 2009 2:36:30 GMT -5
Jon,
The MR scheme requires the use of a 4PDT switch, and since we can't adapt that to your two push-pulls, we have to toss it out.
We can go back to what you originally asked for, a push-pull to implement N+B and another push-pull to implement B*M. To keep it simple, both to build and to operate, I'd hook it all up such that the two switches were mutually exclusive - they couldn't both be active at the same time. One would have priority over the other, it'd make no difference which option that was.
If this gets your attention in a positive way, then let us know. It may be that someone will beat me to posting a diagram, if you give us the go-ahead, but I think I've got one (from another project) that I can adapt to fit the above description. (I've already worked out the circuit in my head, I just need to draw it, if you want it.)
HTH
sumgai
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Post by jontwentytwelve on Nov 6, 2009 3:54:04 GMT -5
sumgai, i understand that the circuits wouldn't work in unison or anything but if you were at all willing to draw out a diagram for me i'd be very very greatful.
again thanks for all the help!
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Post by JohnH on Nov 6, 2009 4:47:19 GMT -5
The MR scheme requires the use of a 4PDT switch, and since we can't adapt that to your two push-pulls, we have to toss it out. sumgai sumgai - I was thinking of this version by Chris, with just the superswitch and a dpdt for the series/parallel, plus a couple of dpdt's for phase switches. Mr wiring with phase
Drop off one phase switch and it works with two push/pulls John
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Post by sumgai on Nov 6, 2009 14:59:57 GMT -5
John,
What you say is almost true. IMO, Chris's adaptation takes it out of the realm of merely an M.R. mod, it becomes a new circuit, albeit one that accomplishes the same things (and more).
Mike's original intent was to have one pickup selector and one additional switch that would give him what he wanted. Other folks later added their own mods to that basic setup, or requested that he add those mods for them, which in most cases, Mike did. But in my view, removing the one-additional-switch paradigm and replacing it with two (or more) individual switches is, according to Mike's original intent, not a mod but instead a different puppy.
But that's not to take away what you've offered!! I believe this would more than thrill any "collector" such as Jon's friend/customer.
Jon, how 'bout it, does this ring your chimes? It'll do what you want, with no additional parts, and no head-scratching, trying to figure what what to squeeze in where.... It has the added advantage of having been field tested (by its designer, of course), so there's no wondering about anything being forgotten.
sumgai
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Post by JohnH on Nov 6, 2009 15:24:08 GMT -5
Jon - if that does appeal, it will probably still take a bit of interpretation and simplification, to get it down to the one volume one tone version. Id be happy to do that, if the following results are appealing
parallel mode N N+M N+B B+M B
series mode BxMxN MxN BxN BxM B+M+N
and the phase switch will affect anything with N combos. Its a huge range and covers all the useful sounds. The only thing it doesn't do is M alone, a preference of the original designer.
John
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Post by jontwentytwelve on Nov 6, 2009 17:33:10 GMT -5
those switching options sound really good actually. if you wouldn't mind simplifying the diagram i will definitely use it.
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Post by JohnH on Nov 6, 2009 17:39:52 GMT -5
Here it is anyway, I got curious: Relative to Chris' original, I took off the shield wires on each pickup, for clarity, but if they exist they all go to ground along with the wire to the bridge. The tone is now a master tone. Wires showing stopping at a pot body, attach to it, and push/pull pots seem to usually have a suitable lug just above the switch lugs. There is a 1nF treble bleed cap on the volume pot, which works better if it also has a 220k resistor in parallel with it. No worries if that doesnt suit your customers needs - just done out of interest. cheers John
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seacon
Rookie Solder Flinger
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Post by seacon on Nov 7, 2009 17:48:56 GMT -5
Looks like there's a heat-shrink-wrapped resistor across two of the lugs (bottom left).
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Post by sumgai on Nov 7, 2009 21:34:13 GMT -5
seacon, Nice catch! I'll second your opinion, I don't see it being anything else that would orinarily be found in a control cavity. And as if the tone isn't messed up enough already, this will probably cinch it - no matter what terminals it's hooked to. sumgai
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Post by jontwentytwelve on Nov 8, 2009 4:00:17 GMT -5
John, thanks so much, i had time to finish it off today, sounds incredible, some very cool sounds in there!
really can't thank you enough.
Jon.
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Post by JohnH on Nov 8, 2009 5:34:18 GMT -5
Thats great Jon - well done on getting it going. Ive never tried that circuit myself but it is a favourite around here.
cheers John
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